Can a Christian lose their Salvation?

[MarkRohfrietsch]

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Stipulations:

1. Topic: Can a Christian lose their Salvation?
2. Affirmative: God's Word
   Opposing: R Baker
3. Rounds: 10
   
4. Alternating rounds starting each with God's Word being the first post.for a total of 20 posts.
5. Time limit between posts: 1 week maximum, there is no minimum.
6. Maximum length for each post: Limited to the preset maximum post size (I don't know just how big that is... but it's big).
7. Quotes and References are allowed; Please note that all quotes will fall under the 20% rule.
8. Start Date: Friday, May 4, 2010.
   

Link to Peanut Gallery here: PEANUT GALLERY-FORMAL DEBATE-Can a Christian lose their Salvation?

 

[God's Word]

Hebrews 3:1

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus..."

The epistle to the Hebrews was written to Hebrew CHRISTIANS. Yes, they were "holy brethren" and "partakers of the heavenly calling" who knew Jesus Christ as their High Priest. These CHRISTIANS were repeatedly warned, though, not to let things slip lest they lose their present standing with God.

In the first two chapters of this epistle, there is a contrast made between angels and Jesus Christ. The Old Covenant (Testament) was given "by the disposition of angels" (Acts 7:53), "ordained by angels" (Galatians 3:19) and "spoken by angels" (Hebrews 2:2). Since Jesus Christ is greater than the angels, the New Covenant is far superior to the Old Covenant. At the same time, however, the punishments under the New Covenant are "sorer" (Hebrews 10:29) than the punishments under the Old Covenant as well.

Hebrews 2:1-3

"Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him..."

Under the Old Covenant, every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward. It's frightening to me, today, to hear so many professing Christians speak of sin in such a light manner as if God will no longer judge sinners. These CHRISTIANS were warned to not let things slip and also warned that they wouldn't escape if they neglected so great a salvation. Why the warnings if "once saved, always saved" is true? It isn't true. As far as I'm concerned, it's possibly the most damnable heresy ever spoken for reasons which I'll outline throughout this debate.

In chapter 3 of this epistle, we see a contrast being made between Moses and Jesus Christ. Whereas "Moses was faithful in all his house, as a servant" (Hebrews 3:5), Christ is a Son over His own house. Since the Son is greater than the servant, again, the New Covenant is far superior to the Old Covenant. Once again, however, this superiority of the New Covenant does not diminish the punishments inherent with breaking such a Covenant. In fact, as we'll plainly see throughout this discussion (if we keep our eyes open), the punishments under the New Covenant are "sorer" (Hebrews 10:29) than those under the Old Covenant. Continuing on with our contrast between Moses and Jesus, we read:

Hebrews 3:6-15

"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF WE HOLD FAST THE CONFIDENCE AND THE REJOICING OF THE HOPE FIRM UNTO THE END. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, TO-DAY IF YE WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. SO I SWARE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER INTO MY REST). TAKE HEED, BRETHREN, LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF, IN DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD. BUT EXHORT ONE ANOTHER DAILY, WHILE IT IS CALLED TO-DAY, LEST ANY OF YOU BE HARDENED THROUGH THE DECEITFULNESS OF SIN. FOR WE ARE MADE PARTAKERS OF CHRIST, IF WE HOLD FAST THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONFIDENCE STEDFAST UNTO THE END; WHILE IT IS SAID, TO-DAY IF YE WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, AS IN THE PROVOCATION."

Here, these Hebrew CHRISTIANS are reminded that they are Christ's house IF they hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end and IF they hold fast the beginning of their confidence stedfast unto the end. IOW, as we read earlier in this same epistle, if they were not careful, then they could let such things "slip" or be "neglected". This, of course, is perfectly in line with the direct teachings of Jesus Christ, Who said:

Matthew 10:22

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: BUT HE THAT ENDURETH TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED."

And, again:

Matthew 24:12-13

"And because iniquity shall abound, THE LOVE OF MANY SHALL WAX COLD. BUT HE THAT SHALL ENDURE UNTO THE END, THE SAME SHALL BE SAVED."

In scripture, the Christian life is repeatedly likened to "a race" THAT NEEDS TO BE FINISHED AND NOT JUST STARTED. The Apostle Paul put it this way:

I Corinthians 9:24-27

"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: BUT I KEEP UNDER MY BODY, AND BRING IT INTO SUBJECTION: LEST THAT BY ANY MEANS, WHEN I HAVE PREACHED TO OTHERS, I MYSELF SHOULD BE A CASTAWAY."

Paul understood that those who run in a race need to be "temperate" or self-controlled IN ALL THINGS. He applied this understanding to his own spiritual life and brought his own body into subjection to the Word and will of God LEST THAT BY ANY MEANS, WHEN HE HAD PREACHED TO OTHERS, HE SHOULD BE A CASTAWAY HIMSELF. Was Paul a believer in "once saved, always saved"? Not on your life (which is what is at stake), friends. Going back to what we just read in Hebrews chapter 3, we see that the writer quoted from Psalm 95:7-11 (MULTIPLE TIMES, including chapter 4) which speaks of hearing God's voice TODAY lest our hearts become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. IOW, EVERY DAY WHICH IS CALLED "TODAY", we need to be careful not to neglect/ignore the things which God is saying to us lest our hearts become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. EVERY DAY. In fact, we read of how CHRISTIANS can "depart from the living God", having been hardened to the point of now having "evil hearts of unbelief". We also read how CHRISTIANS ought to be exhorting each other "DAILY, WHILE IT IS CALLED TODAY". Why the need for DAILY EXHORTATIONS if "once saved, always saved" is true? It's a lie right from the pit, friends. These Hebrew CHRISTIANS were reminded of what happened to their forefathers in the wilderness who provoked God with their SINS and HARDNESS OF HEART. That's right, God swore in His wrath that they would not enter into His rest and these Hebrew CHRISTIANS were being warned by their forefathers' past mistakes. Elsewhere, along these same lines, Paul said:

I Corinthians 10:11-12

"Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. WHEREFORE LET HIM THAT THINKETH HE STANDETH TAKE HEED LEST HE FALL."

Again, another admonition/exhortation to TAKE HEED LEST ONE FALL. Why all of the warnings to CHRISTIANS if "once saved, always saved" is true? It isn't true. It's a potentially damnable heresy in that it only increases the likelihood of one becoming slack or lighthearted in the things of God. There is a cost to following Christ, friends, and that cost is EVERYTHING!

Luke 14:25-33

"And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, SITTETH NOT DOWN FIRST, AND COUNTETH THE COST, WHETHER HE HAVE SUFFICIENT TO FINISH IT? LEST HAPLY, AFTER HE HATH LAID THE FOUNDATION, AND IS NOT ABLE TO FINISH IT, ALL THAT BEHOLD IT BEGIN TO MOCK HIM, SAYING, THIS MAN BEGAN TO BUILD, AND WAS NOT ABLE TO FINISH. Or what king, going to make war against another king, SITTETH NOT DOWN FIRST, AND CONSULTETH WHETHER HE BE ABLE WITH TEN THOUSAND TO MEET HIM THAT COMETH AGAINST HIM WITH TWENTY THOUSAND? OR ELSE, WHILE THE OTHER IS YET A GREAT WAY OFF, HE SENDETH AN AMBASSAGE, AND DESIRETH CONDITIONS OF PEACE. So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

Friends, JESUS CHRIST said that there is a cost to following Him. It matters not if we have "laid the foundation" (and there is no other foundation than JESUS CHRIST, friends - I Corinthians 3:11) AND THEN ARE NOT ABLE TO FINISH WHAT WE STARTED. We must "endure to the end to be saved". Similarly, it matters not if we enter into the war (many people here seem to think of Christianity as more of a "playground" than a "battleground"), but rather it matters whether or not we fight the good fight unto the end. There are those who "send out an ambassador" and actually "desire conditions of peace" with the enemy of their soul, Satan. Friends, make no such pacts. Satan is a liar and the father of it and he is a murderer, too.

Well, that's my introduction. I'll pick up in Hebrews chapter 4 (Lord willing, of course) when my next turn comes. Thank you.

 

[R Baker]

Salvation is that act of God whereby He delivers an individual from the guilt and penalty of the just condemnation incurred by our being, “in Adam”. Being one of his posterity all have inherited his “fallen” sinful nature so that we are constituted sinners by nature and by choice separated from a filial relationship with God and are now His enemies. Man’s nature subsequent to the “Fall” in Scripture is declared to be:

Gen 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Eccl 7:20 Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

Rom 3:9-12 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written,

There is none righteous, not even one
There is none who understands
There is none who seeks for God
All have turned aside, together they have become useless
There is none who does good
There is not even one

Eph 2:1-3 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Rom 8:7-8 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

Rom 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

A Christian is one for whom Christ has died. He has redeemed His sheep from the curse of the law by being constituted as the federal head (the second Adam) representing His children before God as their substitute. His sacrifice propitiated the wrath of God against them because of sin. Our sins were imputed (credited) to His account and His righteousness was imputed to our account. This is a forensic (legal) transaction as in a court of law where the Judge declares the defendant “Not Guilty”. It does not change that person’s character (sanctification is for that) but his judicial standing. That person is “justified”. Jesus’ death was a penal, subtitutionary sacrifice which redeemed the elect whereby, in time, it is applied to His chosen people having been purchased with the blood of Christ.

“Monergists believe that there is only one force in the universe (grace alone) that brings about regeneration in the life of the sinner. In specifics, because of the deadness of man’s spiritual state, his moral inability, the Holy Spirit performs the miracle of spiritual resurrection (regeneration) in that person, hence, “monergism” (one work). Grace is sufficient to be effective, and does not depend on some action of man. In other words, the Holy Spirit does not merely whisper in the hardened sinner’s ear, hoping that the rebel sinner will “cooperate”; rather, while the sinner is in a state of hardness and rebellion, the Holy Spirit penetrates in the will of man and performs the miracle of spiritual life (regeneration). That is grace alone. Faith does not precede regeneration, regeneration precedes faith.” -A Touchstone for God-Centered Salvation Vs. Man-Centered Salvation Alan Kurschner

It is vital at this point to present to the readers what is called “The Ordo Salutis”, latin for the order of salvation - the Biblical and logical steps that cause a lost sinner to be brought into the kingdom of God. It was in eternity past that God the Father chose/elected a certain people to salvation – “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” Eph.1:3-6

In His time Christ’s accomplished redemption is applied individually to His chosen one and is experienced by them as a present reality: And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. Romans 8:28-30 Past tense-an accomplished and certain fact.

The order of salvation is as follows:1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30) We are adopted as children of God being united to Christ and “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.” Eph.1:7-14

The first event that had to take place for us to be saved is God's unconditional love and election of us in eternity past. Then, God sent us an outward call at some point in our lives, or in other words, he brought the message of the gospel across our paths, either through the reading or the hearing of the word. Next, he gave an inward call, through the prompting of the Holy Spirit, which regenerated, or brought to life our previously dead hearts. Because of this regeneration, we experienced conversion, that is, we are given the gifts of repentance of our sin and faith in Christ. Then, in consequence of our faith, we are justified, that is, God legally declares us not guilty by imputing our sins to Christ’ account and declares us righteous, by imputing or reckoning Jesus' perfect righteousness to our own account. At the same time, God adopts us, making us his children and the brothers and sisters of Christ; and he also unites us with Christ, so that henceforth we are in him-bringing to pass in time what was predestined in eternity past. Beginning at that point, and on throughout our lifetime, God sanctifies us, or makes us holy, changing us into his likeness. Throughout this time, God is also preserving us, causing us to persevere in the faith, so that we do not finally fall away. Then, at death, we enter an intermediate state, where we are in the presence of the Lord, but without our physical bodies. And finally comes glorification, when our bodies will be resurrected and changed so that they will no longer decay, and we will inherit the new heavens and new earth, where we will live in the presence of the Lord of Glory for all eternity.” Modified slightly from-“What does “ordo salutis” mean, and why is it important?” What does “ordo salutis” mean, and why is it important?

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, For Your sake we are being put to death all day long, We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Rom 8:31-39

This sample of God’s purpose, intention, accomplishment, application and preservation of all true Christians is of inestimable comfort “for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.” 2Tim1:12b

"Perseverance of the Saints" is the biblical doctrine that God infallibly preserves in faith all of those he has given to the Son (John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65) so that they are never lost. It maintains that none who are truly redeemed by Christ can be condemned for their sins or finally fall away from the faith. For as the apostle Paul states in Philippians 1:6, “I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”

The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints does not maintain that all those who profess the Christian faith are certain of heaven. It is saints - those who are set apart by the Spirit - who persevere to the end. It is believers - those who are given true, living faith in Christ - who are secure and safe in Him. Many who profess to believe fall away, but they do not fall from saving grace for they never possessed that grace that saves. True believers do fall into temptations, and they do commit grievous sins, but these sins do not cause them to lose their salvation or separate them from Christ.

This doctrine does not stand alone but is a necessary part of the Calvinistic system of theology. The doctrines of Election and Efficacious Grace logically imply the certain salvation of those who receive these blessings. If God has chosen men absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, and if His Spirit effectively applies to them the benefits of redemption, then the inescapable conclusion is that these persons shall be saved. They are kept by God's power through faith and nothing can separate them from His love. They have been sealed with the Holy Spirit who has been given as the guarantee of their salvation, and they are thus assured of an eternal inheritance.

The P in the “Perseverance of the Saints” is the final letter portrayed in the Calvinistic acrostic TULIP. This is a consistent, cohesive representation of the doctrine of sovereign grace that must be taken as a whole - the logical conclusion of a system of theology that upholds the Biblical testimony of man’s de-merited, fallen condition and God’s freedom to save whom He chooses to His glory.

To assert that a person can be lost who has been predestined, elected/chosen, and given by the Father to the Son who propitiated the wrath of God through His substitutionary atonement and being indwelt and “sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.” (Eph.1:13b-14) is to cast an aspersion of the very gospel of Christ.

In Hebrews there are two major themes the author builds upon: Christology (the person and work of Christ) and exhortation (admonition/warnings and assurance). In the following posts I intend to elaborate on these two themes, that is answer: How is the author describing Jesus’ office and ministry and “Why the warnings if "once saved, always saved" is true?

While this debate is whether a Christian can lose their salvation, I am not aware of any orthodox Christian who says that “The Perseverance of the Saints”, or lack thereof, is an essential doctrine to be believed for salvation. So to state: “It isn't true. As far as I'm concerned, it's possibly the most damnable heresy ever spoken” and by believing in OSAS “your life is at stake” and “It’s a lie right from the pit.” And “It’s a potentially damnable heresy….” – is more than a bit over-the-top. Add to these -“There are those who “send out an ambassador” and “actually desire a condition of peace” with the enemy of their soul, Satan.” I’m fairly certain I’ve previously seen this accusation leveled against Monergists by those who embrace a Synergistic salvation. I will say however that what will be demonstrated in this debate is that one position will represent a God-centered salvation and the other a man-centered one.

My opponent’s position is to prove that a blood-bought child of God can become a child of the devil and sent to the fires of Hell. As for me I am set to defend that -“being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ” Philippians 1:6

In order to better understand my opponent’s position it would be helpful if a few questions could be answered. I think all of them can be answered in one or two ways or perhaps, better, a two-fold way.

What is the foundation of God’s elective grace? Or Why does He choose one person and pass-by another?

When the gospel is presented to someone and that person accepts the terms, what is the cause of their being born-again and exercising faith?

Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of anyone in particular?

What can cause a Christian to lose their salvation?

On whom does it ultimately depend to keep one in the state of reconciliation with God?

 

[God's Word]

Hebrews 4:1-13

"LET US THEREFORE FEAR, LEST, A PROMISE BEING LEFT US OF ENTERING INTO HIS REST, ANY OF YOU SHOULD SEEM TO COME SHORT OF IT. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. SEEING THEREFORE IT REMAINETH THAT SOME MUST ENTER THEREIN, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, HE LIMITETH A CERTAIN DAY, SAYING IN DAVID, TO-DAY, AFTER SO LONG A TIME; AS IT IS SAID, TO-DAY IF YE WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. THERE REMAINETH THEREFORE A REST TO THE PEOPLE OF GOD. FOR HE THAT IS ENTERED INTO HIS REST, HE ALSO HATH CEASED FROM HIS OWN WORKS, AS GOD DID FROM HIS. LET US LABOUR THEREFORE TO ENTER INTO THAT REST, LEST ANY MAN FALL AFTER THE SAME EXAMPLE OF UNBELIEF. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

Having already been exhorted "not to let things slip" (Heb. 2:1), not to "neglect so great salvation" lest they don't "escape" (Heb. 2:3), to "hold fast their confidence and the rejoicing of their hope firm unto the end" (Hebrews 3:6,14), not to "harden their hearts" (Heb. 3:8,15), not to "depart from the living God" with "evil hearts of unbelief" (Heb. 3:12) and to "exhort one another daily, while it is called Today, lest any of them be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" (Heb. 3:13), these CHRISTIANS were now admonished to "FEAR, lest, a promise being left them of entering into His rest, any of them should seem to come short of it" (Heb. 4:1) and "lest any man FALL after the same example of unbelief" (Heb. 4:11) that caused their forefathers TO FALL. "FEAR" and "FALL"? What happened to "once saved, always saved"? It's a LIE, straight from Satan, the father of lies, or else all of these warnings and admonitions TO CHRISTIANS are nothing more/less than just filler in our Bibles. There REMAINS a rest to the people of God and we must LABOUR TO ENTER THEREIN. "Jesus" (better translated "Joshua") didn't give the children of Israel rest when he brought them into the promised land. No, for this very cause, God, through David in Psalm 95:7-11, spoke of "another day", saying, "TODAY, AFTER SO LONG A TIME; AS IT IS SAID, TODAY IF YE WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS". The Psalmist David penned those words more than 400 years AFTER Joshua had brought the children of Israel into the promised land. The entering into Canaan was NOT the fulfillment of the promise that was made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. No, they all "looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" (Heb. 11:9-10) and this city is "an heavenly" (Heb. 11:16) city or the New Jerusalem which will one day descend from heaven. As such, David penned the following words many years AFTER Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had died in faith, having "received not the promise" (Heb. 11:39), and many years AFTER Joshua had brought the children of Israel into the promised land:

Psalm 95:7-11

"For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. TO-DAY IF YE WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEART, AS IN THE PROVOCATION, AND AS IN THE DAY OF TEMPTATION IN THE WILDERNESS: WHEN YOUR FATHERS TEMPTED ME, PROVED ME, AND SAW MY WORK. Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: UNTO WHOM I SWARE IN MY WRATH THAT THEY SHOULD NOT ENTER INTO MY REST."

These CHRISTIANS were being reminded of the sins of their forefathers which caused God to sware in His wrath that they would not enter into His rest. What's the purpose of the warning? We need not guess, for the text plainly tells us. They were being warned that they might FEAR lest they FALL SHORT OF God's future promised rest AFTER THE SAME EXAMPLE OF UNBELIEF that caused their forefathers TO FALL or after the same example of having "evil hearts of unbelief, in departing from the living God" (Heb. 3:12). AGAIN, for this very cause, these CHRISTIANS were instructed to "exhort one another daily, while it is called To-day; lest any of them be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" (Heb. 3:13). As such, for someone to come along and preach "once saved, always saved" is nothing short of heresy. Listen, friends, this "debate" (there is no "debate") is about ETERNAL SALVATION, is it not? Well, after being reminded of how they could "come boldly unto the throne of grace, that they might obtain mercy, and find grace to help in the time of need" (Heb. 4:16), these CHRISTIANS were also reminded of the following:

Hebrews 5:8-9

"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, HE BECAME THE AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM..."

Jesus Christ is the author of ETERNAL SALVATION unto all them that OBEY HIM, friends. Remember, EVERY transgression and DISOBEDIENCE received a just recompence of reward" (Heb. 2:2) under the Old Covenant and these CHRISTIANS were being warned that they wouldn't "escape" in they "neglected so great salvation" (Heb. 2:3) as was offered under the New Covenant. AGAIN, the punishments for breaking the New Covenant are called "sorer" (Heb. 10:29) than the punishments which were given for violating the Old Covenant. God has called us to OBEDIENCE, friends, and such OBEDIENCE is possible through the grace that God has provided for us IN JESUS CHRIST and via the indwelling power of THE HOLY SPIRIT, the very "SPIRIT OF GRACE" (Heb. 10:29). There are those, unfortunately, who can and will "do despite unto the Spirit of grace" (Heb. 10:29), but I'll address that more fully in a future post...thereby exposing the error of the "I" ("Irresistible grace") in Calvin's heretical teaching of "TULIP" which was already mentioned by my opponent in his opening remarks. Moving on to chapter 6, we read:

Hebrews 6:1-12

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; NOT LAYING AGAIN THE FOUNDATION of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, IF GOD PERMIT. FOR IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, AND WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, AND HAVE TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY TO THEMSELVES THE SON OF GOD AFRESH, AND PUT HIM TO AN OPEN SHAME. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: BUT THAT WHICH BEARETH THORNS AND BRIERS IS REJECTED, AND IS NIGH UNTO CURSING; WHOSE END IS TO BE BURNED. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. AND WE DESIRE THAT EVERY ONE OF YOU DO SHEW THE SAME DILIGENCE TO THE FULL ASSURANCE OF HOPE UNTO THE END: THAT YE BE NOT SLOTHFUL, BUT FOLLOWERS OF THEM WHO THROUGH FAITH AND PATIENCE INHERIT THE PROMISES."

Friends, open your eyes to the following truths, if you haven't already:

1. The foundation of repentance had already been laid.

2. The writer was going to "go on unto perfection...IF GOD PERMITTED". IOW, if these CHRISTIANS had already FALLEN AWAY, then God wouldn't permit them to "go on unto perfection" as it would be IMPOSSIBLE.

3. These CHRISTIANS were once enlightened.

4. These CHRISTIANS had tasted of the heavenly gift.

5. These CHRISTIANS were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.

6. These CHRISTIANS had tasted the good word of God.

7. These CHRISTIANS had experienced the powers of the world to come.

They were CHRISTIANS, friends, and IF THEY FELL AWAY, THEN IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE, SEEING THAT THEY WOULD NEED TO CRUCIFY CHRIST AFRESH.

That's right, they had already been "renewed unto repentance", so don't let anybody come along and tell you that they were never saved to begin with (a popular heresy). Friends, when the children of Israel thirsted for water in the wilderness, God initially instructed Moses to "smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink" (Ex. 17:6). In regard to this incident, Paul wrote:

I Corinthians 10:1-12

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that ALL our fathers were under the cloud, and ALL passed through the sea; And were ALL baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did ALL eat the same SPIRITUAL MEAT; And did ALL drink the same SPIRITUAL DRINK: FOR THEY DRANK OF THAT SPIRITUAL ROCK THAT FOLLOWED THEM: AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. NOW THESE THINGS WERE OUR EXAMPLES, TO THE INTENT WE SHOULD NOT LUST AFTER EVIL THINGS, AS THEY ALSO LUSTED. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. NEITHER LET US TEMPT CHRIST, AS SOME OF THEM ALSO TEMPTED, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. NOW ALL THESE THINGS HAPPENED UNTO THEM FOR ENSAMPLES: AND THEY ARE WRITTEN FOR OUR ADMONITION, UPON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE WORLD ARE COME. WHEREFORE LET HIM THAT THINKETH HE STANDETH TAKE HEED LEST HE FALL."

ALL of the Israelites departing from Egypt drank SPIRITUAL DRINK from that SPIRITUAL ROCK that followed them and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST. However, only two of the original 603,550 men who were 20 years old and upward, Joshua and Caleb, weren't overthrown IN GOD'S WRATH because they "wholly followed the LORD" (Num. 32:10-12). Even Moses wasn't allowed to step foot into the promised land (we know that Moses was saved, though) because he didn't "sanctify God in the eyes of the children of Israel" (Num. 20:12) THE SECOND TIME that they cried for "water". On the second occasion, God commanded Moses to "speak unto the rock before their eyes and it shall give forth his water" (Num. 20:8) which symbolizes our need to have DAILY COMMUNION WITH CHRIST THROUGH PRAYER. Moses disobeyed God and "SMOTE THE ROCK TWICE" (Num. 20:11), a type of Christ, Who is the Rock, being "crucified afresh" and God was sorely displeased with Moses and forbid him from stepping foot into the promised land. Those who "FALL AWAY" will not be allowed "to crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" or to "smite the rock twice" but are likened to rejected thorns and briers which are "nigh unto cursing" and "whose end is to be burned". Let my opponent say of me:
　

My opponent’s position is to prove that a blood-bought child of God can become a child of the devil and sent to the fires of Hell.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE JUST READ, friends. These CHRISTIANS were admonished to show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end that people like Abraham showed so that, through faith and patience, they might inherit the promises. IOW, they needed to endure unto the end to be saved or else their end was to be CURSED AND BURNED.

Let my opponent state how Paul was "confident" that God would continue his good work in the Philippians until the day of Jesus Christ. Paul was equally as "confident" that he would come again to the Philippians (Phil. 1:24-26) and we all know how that turned out, don't we? Paul also told these same Philippians to "work out their own salvation WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING" (Phil. 2:12)..."that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, THAT I HAVE NOT RUN IN VAIN, NEITHER LABOURED IN VAIN" (Phil. 2:16). IOW, as with his other epistles, Paul FEARED that his labour towards his hearers might have been in vain.

Let my opponent also cite from Romans 8:31-39, as if it somehow teaches "eternal security". It doesn't. Paul continued:

Romans 11:20-22

"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. BE NOT HIGHMINDED, BUT FEAR: For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF."

MORE ADMONITIONS TO FEAR, TAKE HEED AND CONTINUE LEST THEY BE CUT OFF. Does that sound like "eternal security" to you? Let's not kid ourselves, nor let ourselves be deceived by others. Cherry-picked, out of context verses will only cause you damage. As my opening text states, let's allow the word of God to be quick (alive) and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword. Yes, let it pierce, when necessary, even to the dividing of our souls and spirits and joints and marrow and let it be a discerner of the very thoughts and intents of our hearts that we FALL NOT AWAY from God. There is no creature that is not manifest in His sight, but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with Whom we have to do.

I'll pick up in Hebrews when my next turn comes.

 

[R Baker]

The main point of Hebrews is Jesus heavenly, high priestly ministry as intercessor, as the mediator of a better covenant. 8:1,6 Pertaining to Perseverance Christ is said to be: The Apostle and eternal, permanent, heavenly High Priest 3:1; 4:14-16; 5:1-6,10; 6:20; 7:17,21,24,26-28; 8:1-3; 9:11; 10:21; The author/source and obtainer of eternal salvation/redemption 5:9; 9:12, 28; Our forerunner. Our sure and steadfast hope which is the anchor of our soul 6:19-20; The guarantee and mediator of a better/new covenant 7:22; 8:6; 9:15, 24; 12:24; The Savior who completely saves to the uttermost with eternal salvation which perfectly and permanently sanctifies us 7:25, 27; 10:10-14, 18; Eternal intercessor of His children 7:25; 9:24; The author and perfecter/finisher/completer of faith 12:2 This is made plain in Romans 8:34 “who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.”

The confidence by which we may draw near in full assurance of faith is not only inspired by the faith that a new and living way has been consecrated by the blood of Christ but also by the assurance of Christ's continued priestly rule over the house of God. "Having, therefore, brethren boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus... and having a high priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith" Heb. 10:19-22. "Wherefore it behooved Him to be made like to his brethren in all things, in order that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to the end that He might make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to help those who are being tempted" Heb. 2:17, 18. "Seeing then that we have a great high priest who is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin." Heb. 4:14,15 If Christ as priest after the order of Melchizedek is the mediator and surety of the new covenant as the everlasting covenant, this means that His priestly function is operative in the final and perfect fruition of the unalterable redemptive counsel of God. The heavenly high priesthood of Christ means, therefore, that Christ appears in the presence of God at the right hand of the throne of the majesty in the heavens to present Himself as the perfected high priest to plead on the basis of what He has accomplished-the fulfillment of all the promises, the bestowment of all the benefits, and investing with all the graces secured and ratified by His own high priestly offering. This is a ministry directed to the Father. The God-ward reference is primary here as it is also in the once-for-all priestly offering. But it is also a ministry on behalf of men. As directed to the Father it has no relevance except as He is appointed for men in things pertaining to God Heb. 5:1. But since it is a ministry on behalf of men it is also a ministry which reaches to men, the ministration of help to the people of God in all their temptations and tribulations.

It is obvious that the intercession of Christ is coordinated with the death, resurrection, and exalted glory as that which insures the vindication, on the one hand, or the security, on the other hand, of the people of God. And this means that the active and abiding intercession of Christ is engaged with the permanency of the bond that unites the people of God to Christ in the efficacy of His death, in the power of His resurrection, and in the security of His exalted glory.

The intercession is appealed to here for the purpose of assuring believers that there is an abiding concern on the part of the exalted Lord with the conflicts and trials which beset the people of God and that this concern expresses itself in prayer on their behalf, that none of the assaults upon them will be successful in severing the bond that unites them to Him and that they will be more than conquerors in every conflict with their adversaries. The idea of saving to the uttermost implies salvation to the full extent, salvation complete and perfect. It is inescapable that the intercession of Christ brings within its scope all that is necessary to salvation in the fullest extent of its completed perfection. This is to say that the intercession covers the whole range of what is requisite to and of what is realized in salvation. The intercession of Christ is included to meet every need of the believer. The security of salvation cannot be severed from His intercession. The intercessory aspect of the priestly function must never be divorced from the propitiatory. The intercession is based upon the atonement. “The heavenly intercession is a messianic function just as truly as was His propitiatory offering. The intercession is simply one element or aspect of that provision which God in love and wisdom has made to bring to perfection His redemptive design. The mediation continuously carried on in the holies of the heavenly sanctuary brings to our attention the condescensions of love and grace which the governing of salvation involves.

Is His intercession performed as the exalted High Priest effectual or not? Does He, can He fail to present His blood-atonement in behalf of His saints as a satisfactory sacrifice? Does the Father reject that sacrifice presented by the Son for any believer, ever? Does Christ ever cease from interceding for His own? The old covenant is sometimes called the “Covenant of Works”. Bringing it down to its basic statement the Old Covenant says “If you will do this then you will live”. It was a conditional covenant 0f obedience to God which, of course, never made anyone perfect because of man’s enslavement to sin and so brought the curse upon the human race. “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.” Gal.3:10-14 Its purpose was intended to point to Jesus the Savior. “Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.”Gal.3:19-25

“And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of Him, “ You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.” For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. And inasmuch as it was not without an oath (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, “The Lord has sworn And will not change His mind, ‘You are a priest forever’”); so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.” Heb.7:15-22 This covenant is variously called the “New Covenant”, “Everlasting Covenant”, the “Covenant of Grace”, “My Covenant of Peace”, a “Better Covenant”. “But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them, He says, “Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand To lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they did not continue in My covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord. “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be My people. “ And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all will know Me, from the least to the greatest of them. “ For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.” When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” Hebrews 8:6-13

Most conspicuous is the missing conditional requirement of man’s obedience for the receiving of the benefit of eternal life as under the Old Covenant. God has established this New Covenant on the basis of grace alone for those for whom Christ (having both fulfilled the entire law of God in His “active obedience” and suffering the required penalty of God’s justice by our not keeping the law in His “passive obedience”) in our place. This is God’s covenant with a Christian. A promise whereby God has enjoined Himself alone to fulfill the requirements and bestow the benefits for whom Christ died. “For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, saying, “ I will surely bless you and I will surely multiply you.” And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute. In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.” Heb.6:13-20-Who can break this covenant?

In Hebrews 9 the author goes out of the way to show the contrast of the insufficiency, the inability of the sacrificial system under the Old Covenant to make anyone perfect (9:9; 10:1) and the Divine Trinitarian accomplishment of the salvation of Christians: “… how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance…For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him…After saying above, “ Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), then He said, “ Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” This phrase ‘once for all” (Gr. Ephapax) appears in7:27; 9:12; 10:10 It is a designation of time. See Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Louw & Nida p.609 E 60.67 see also Strong’s numbers 2178/1909/530

My reason for pointing this out is because it demonstrates the finality, the completion, the perfection of Christ’s work of redemption and mediatorial high priestly intercession as an inviolable fulfillment of God’s will for “we who have been sanctified (made holy, set apart unto God). Once for all time. It is an “eternal salvation” 5:9, an “eternal redemption” 9:12, an “eternal inheritance” 9:15, an eternal covenant” 13:20 “for He Himself has said, “I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you” 13:5

If someone could say: “Yea, but a Christian can still choose to desert God because of their freewill.” Really? Seriously? Are you stronger than God? Can you annul His decree? Can you reverse Jesus work? Can you negate His covenant promise and oath? Can you reverse God’s approving verdict of Jesus’ substitutionary sacrifice and intercession in your behalf by saying NO,not accepted. Can your will trump His? I hope the readers, and my opponent, can see the enormous inconsistency with the Biblical doctrine of God’s sovereignty in salvation, from the beginning to the end this line of thinking is, which authorizes man a position superior to God.

 

[God's Word]

In addition to more cherry-picked, out of context verses, my opponent has now begun to truncate verses as well, thereby greatly altering their original intent. For example, whereas he says that Jesus is “The author/source and obtainer of eternal salvation/redemption 5:9”, the verse actually reads that Jesus is “the author of eternal salvation UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM” (Heb. 5:9). IOW, as I’ve already documented in a previous post, EVERY DISOBEDIENCE received a just recompense of reward under the Old Covenant and these CHRISTIANS were being warned that they wouldn’t escape if they neglected so great salvation (Heb. 2:2-3) as was offered under the New Covenant. Friends, what is salvation, anyway?

Matthew 1:21

“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: FOR HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.”

Jesus’ very name means “Jehovah is salvation” as in salvation FROM sin. The epistle to the Hebrew CHRISTIANS is a stern reminder of such. Christ will NOT be “crucified afresh” (Heb. 6:6) and we need to be seeking His face and His grace DAILY to walk apart from sin and in true "holiness, without which no man will see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14).

My opponent also states that Jesus is “Our sure and steadfast hope which is the anchor of our soul 6:19-20” but fails to remind you of the STERN WARNINGS which PRECEDE this in relation to such a “hope”. Friends, these CHRISTIANS had PREVIOUSLY been told that they were only Christ’s house “IF they held fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope FIRM UNTO THE END” (Heb. 3:6) and that they were “partakers of Christ IF they held the beginning of their confidence STEDFAST UNTO THE END” (Heb. 3:14). Also, more STERN WARNINGS IMMEDIATELY PRECEDED his “quote” from Heb. 6:19-20. Yes, these CHRISTIANS who had “ALREADY LAID THE FOUNDATION OF REPENTANCE”, “WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED”, “HAD TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT”, “WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST” and “HAD TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME” were STERNLY WARNED that they could not be “RENEWED AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE IF THEY FELL AWAY SEEING HOW THEY WOULD NEED TO CRUCIFY TO THEMSELVES THE SON OF GOD AFRESH” (Heb. 6:1-6). Of course, my opponent also failed to remind you that such STERN WARNINGS were followed by the admonition to “show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope UNTO THE END” and to “be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises” (Heb. 6:11-12). Again, it is NOT automatic…we have our parts to fulfill UNTO THE END in this COVENANT between two parties and God has provided us with the access to the necessary MERCY AND GRACE by which we can fulfill such…IF WE DON’T FALL AWAY (Heb. 6:6) or DRAW BACK UNTO PERDITION (Heb. 10:39)!

My opponent also states that Jesus is “The Savior who completely saves to the uttermost with eternal salvation which perfectly and permanently sanctifies us 7:25” whereas the cited scripture states that “HE IS ABLE ALSO TO SAVE THEM TO THE UTTERMOST THAT COME UNTO GOD BY HIM” (Heb. 7:25). There’s a BIG DIFFERENCE there, friends. Whereas my opponent would have you to believe that it is automatic, the scripture states the contrary. Yes, Christ is ABLE TO SAVE US TO UTTERMOST, but we must do our parts and come to God through Him DAILY and “EXHORT ONE ANOTHER DAILY, WHILE IT IS CALLED TODAY, LEST ANY OF US BE HARDENED THROUGH THE DECEITFULNESS OF SIN” (Heb. 3:14). Of course, as has already been documented, the need for such DAILY EXHORTATIONS is because a CHRISTIAN can “depart from the living God” with “an evil heart of unbelief” (Heb. 3:12).

My opponent has also shared his erroneous belief that Jesus “permanently sanctifies us”. He goes so far as to quote "Having, therefore, brethren boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus... and having a high priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith" Heb. 10:19-22., but stops there. Why? Well, if we keep on reading, then we’ll have the obvious answer to this question. Continuing on, FROM THE VERY NEXT VERSE, we read:

Hebrews 10:23-31

“LET US HOLD FAST THE PROFESSION OF OUR FAITH WITHOUT WAVERING (for he is faithful that promised); And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; BUT EXHORTING ONE ANOTHER: and so much more, as ye see the day approaching. FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINETH NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES. HE THAT DESPISED MOSES’ LAW DIED WITHOUT MERCY UNDER TWO OR THREE WITNESSES: OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YE, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HATH TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HATH COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HATH DONE DESPITE UNTO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE? FOR WE KNOW HIM THAT HATH SAID, VENGEANCE BELONGETH UNTO ME, I WILL RECOMPENSE, SAITH THE LORD. AND AGAIN, THE LORD SHALL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE. IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.”

Whereas my opponent would have us to believe that Jesus “permanently sanctifies us”, the author of this epistle to Hebrew CHRISTIANS plainly tells us otherwise. Again, more admonitions to HOLD FAST THE PROFESSION OF OUR FAITH WITHOUT WAVERING. Why the constant admonitions to HOLD FAST to that which my opponent would have us to believe we cannot lose? As has already been documented, friends, we can let things SLIP (Heb. 2:1) if we are not careful. Also, more admonitions to EXHORT ONE ANOTHER and also not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. Why? Well, the answer is given us, friends:

BECAUSE IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.

Does that sound like “once saved, always saved” to you? Don’t delude yourselves, friends…it could cost you your very souls. Those who despised Moses’ law (the Old Covenant) died WITHOUT MERCY. Under the New Covenant, THE PUNISHMENTS ARE SORER. Yes, friends, Christ won’t be “crucified afresh” and willful sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth is likened to TREADING UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, COUNTING THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHEREWITH WE WERE SANCTIFIED AS AN UNHOLY THING AND DOING DESPITE TO OR DESPISING THE SPIRIT OF GRACE. So much for being automatically “permanently sanctified” as my opponent suggests. No, friends, we can COUNT THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST, THE VERY BLOOD BY WHICH WE WERE INITIALLY SANCTIFIED OR SET APART, AS AN UNHOLY THING if we go on to sin willfully. By doing such, we not only tread the very Son of God under our feet, but we also DO DESPITE TO OR DESPISE THE VERY SPIRIT OF GRACE. Does that sound like the alleged “Irresistible grace” (the “I” in Calvin’s heretical “TULIP”) to you that my opponent spoke of in his initial post? Don’t kid yourselves, friends. We can not only DESPISE THE SPIRIT OF GRACE, but we can also “FAIL THE GRACE OF GOD” (Heb. 12:15) if we’re not careful. Those who do so are NOT “eternally secure”, but rather “DIE WITHOUT MERCY”, “HAVE A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION”, are considered to be God’s “ADVERSARIES”, receive a “SORER PUNISHMENT” and receive “VENGEANCE, RECOMPENSE AND JUDGMENT AS THEY FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD”.

Regarding the precious blood of Christ which sanctifies us and what ought to be our FEARFUL ATTITUDES in relation to not sinning against it and counting it as “an unholy thing”, Peter wrote:

I Peter 1:13-23

“Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, AND HOPE TO THE END FOR THE GRACE THAT IS TO BE BROUGHT UNTO YOU AT THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST; AS OBEDIENT CHILDREN, NOT FASHIONING YOURSELVES ACCORDING TO THE FORMER LUSTS IN YOUR IGNORANCE: BUT AS HE WHICH HATH CALLED YOU IS HOLY, SO BE YE HOLY IN ALL MANNER OF CONVERSATION; BECAUSE IT IS WRITTEN, BE YE HOLY; FOR I AM HOLY. AND IF YE CALL ON THE FATHER, WHO WITHOUT RESPECT OF PERSONS JUDGETH ACCORDING TO EVERY MAN’S WORK, PASS THE TIME OF YOUR SOJOURNING HERE IN FEAR; FORASMUCH AS YE KNOW THAT YOU WERE NOT REDEEMED WITH CORRUPTIBLE THINGS, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; BUT WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST, AS OF A LAMB WITHOUT BLEMISH AND WITHOUT SPOT: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. SEEING YE HAVE PURIFIED YOUR SOULS IN OBEYING THE TRUTH THROUGH THE SPIRIT UNTO UNFEIGNED LOVE OF THE BRETHREN, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: BEING BORN AGAIN, NOT OF CORRUPTIBLE SEED, BUT OF INCORRUPTIBLE, BY THE WORD OF GOD, WHICH LIVETH AND ABIDETH FOREVER.”

Friends, we’ve been REDEEMED BY THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST that we might OBEY THE TRUTH THROUGH THE SPIRIT. As such, we ought to “PASS THE TIME OF OUR SOJOURNING HERE IN FEAR” lest we sin against such, thereby “counting the blood of the covenant wherewith we were sanctified as an unholy thing” (Heb. 10:29). God, our FATHER, will JUDGE every one of us “ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS” and He commands us to “Be holy as He is Holy”. This is possible, of course, by the indwelling of the HOLY Spirit…the very “Spirit of grace” that we can “do despite to or despise” if we’re not careful. Friends, a lot of professing Christians need to reassess what the Bible means when it speaks of being “born again”. God isn’t playing games. He’s provided a perfect sacrifice for us in JESUS CHRIST and He’s also given us access unto the very “throne of grace” through the same. He’s also made our very bodies to be the temple of the Holy Spirit, so we’re without excuse if we willfully sin against Him.

If someone could say: “Yea, but a Christian can still choose to desert God because of their freewill.” Really? Seriously? Are you stronger than God? Can you annul His decree? Can you reverse Jesus work? Can you negate His covenant promise and oath? Can you reverse God’s approving verdict of Jesus’ substitutionary sacrifice and intercession in your behalf by saying NO,not accepted. Can your will trump His? I hope the readers, and my opponent, can see the enormous inconsistency with the Biblical doctrine of God’s sovereignty in salvation, from the beginning to the end this line of thinking is, which authorizes man a position superior to God.

Have you never read:

Matthew 23:37

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, HOW OFTEN WOULD I HAVE GATHERED THY CHILDREN TOGETHER, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, AND YE WOULD NOT!"

???

"HOW OFTEN WOULD I HAVE GATHERED THY CHILDREN TOGETHER..."

There is the will of God.

"...AND YE WOULD NOT!"

There is the free will decision of man to reject God's will.

Similarly, Stephen said:

Acts 7:51

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, YE DO ALWAYS RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: AS YOUR FATHERS DID, SO DO YE."

The Holy Spirit is the very "Spirit of grace" (Heb. 10:29) and both certain Jews of Stephen's day and their forefathers had been ALWAYS RESISTING HIM. So much for "Irrestible grace"... Calvin's teachings concerning "TULIP" are heretical and you'd be wise to distance yourself from the same. There's no need for you to argue that those of whom Jesus spoke in my quote from Matthew's gospel and those of whom Stephen spoke weren't Christians. Afterall, I've already provided ample documentation that CHRISTIANS can "depart from the living God" and I'm merely attempting to show you the error/heresy of Calvin's alleged "Irrestible grace". Anyhow, this debate isn't really about Calvin's heresies, but I only mention them to hopefully show you some foundational problems with your own presently held erroneous beliefs...beliefs which I hope will be seriously challenged by the truth of God's Word.

In my next response, Lord willing, I hope to finish with the epistle to the Hebrew CHRISTIANS and then to begin to address the heresy of "once saved, always saved" more fully from other portions of the New Testament.

 

[R Baker]

I am fully confident that the readers are well aware that there was no attempt to quote Scripture in the first paragraph of my last post, but a sample of Scriptural references to demonstrate the supremacy of the person and work of Christ in the perfect salvation of His children, even though, somehow, my opponent failed to grasp it. I will respond to the hortatory and warning passages as well as my opponent’s arguments in subsequent posts. However I will address 1 point here-“my opponent has now begun to truncate verses as well, thereby greatly altering their original intent. For example, whereas he says that Jesus is “The author/source and obtainer of eternal salvation/redemption 5:9”, the verse actually reads that Jesus is “the author of eternal salvation UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM”


My opponent here is, however, verifying the Scriptural and Calvinistic doctrine of “Definite Atonement” supporting my position. This verse refers, of course, to the obedience of faith. Rom 1:5, 6:14-23; 16:24-27 Perhaps you are asserting justification by works (works-righteousness) which would, at least, be consistent with your sanctification by works-both grounded in the works of the autonomous human will.

Salvation accomplishes both our regeneration and sanctification. They are the inevitable result of union with Christ. God’s eternal plan to save His people is that they should have salvation by union with the Only Begotten Son of God 2Tim.1:9 By our being united to Christ, our sins were imputed to Him and His righteousness imputed to us 2Cor 5:21; Rom 5:19; 1Cor 1:30; Phil.3:9; 1Pet 2:24 Our union with Him is the guarantee of our ultimate presence in heavenly glory 1Pet 1:3-5; Col 3:3-4

Jesus prayed: "Sanctify them by your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth" John 17:17-19 Our Lord declared that His being set apart unto suffering and death was the meritorious cause of His people’s sanctification. "Jesus Christ... gave Himself for us, that he might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works" Tit. 2:13-14.The sovereign grace of God alone puts us in union with Christ 1Cor 1:30-31; James 1:18; Eph 1:6; 1Cor 1:4 A predestined union by God’s will alone. It was not conditioned upon man’s “works” 2Tim 1:9; Eph1:11, 13; Gal 2:20; The believer’s union with Christ was planned in eternity past Eph 1:4 It was objectively achieved in Christ’s death and resurrection Rom 6:5 It was subjectively applied by the Holy Spirit uniting the believer to Christ 1Cor12:13 It takes place at the moment of the new birth Gal 3:27.

Christ’s death and resurrection purchases the actual imparting of new life to the believer. The “old man” (our old sinful nature) was crucified (put to death) by virtue of our union in His death and resurrection Rom.6:6.The Spirit’s regenerating work unites us to Christ. An unbreakable union results Rom.8:28-39 Because of the believer’s union with Christ, final resurrection is assured Rom 6:5;1Cor 15:22; Rom 8:17. We will always be with Him 1Thess 4:17,18. “He who has the Son has the life” 1Jn 5:12. Being united with Christ saves us from the PENALTY of sin, the POWER of sin, and, ultimately, the PRESENCE of sin. There is nothing that man can do to bring about the new birth or eternally unite a person to the Son of God. Being united with Christ is an act only God Almighty can perform–not man's effort Jn 1:12, 13; Matt 11:27; Eph 2:1-10; James 1:18

In union with Christ by faith, there is the legal imputation of Christ’s righteousness which is justification by faith Rom 3:24-26. When we have been crucified with Christ, the old rebellious, anti-God bias and its enslaving sinful passions has been put to death so that it is rendered powerless as a dominating force Gal 2:20. The believer is freed from the yoke of the Law Gal 2:4 Union with Christ produces sanctification Gal. 5:24; 1Cor 6:17-20 We will be empowered so as to make progressive victory against what remains of our corruptions. It may be 3 steps forward and 2 steps back but there should be progress Rom 8:12, 13 Eternal life is the final result of a life of sanctification in Christ Rom 6:22

This union produces an awareness of our total dependence upon the Savior during our Christian pilgrimage Jn 15:5 Christ is the source for every spiritual blessing: repentance, faith, pardon, justification, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, glorification 1Cor 1:30; Rom 8:29-39 Because of union with Christ, the believer has the resources for godly living, for victory over sin, and for progress in sanctification. Our responsibility in living out our union with Christ involves counting ourselves dead to sin and alive to God, refusing to let sin reign over us, and presenting ourselves to God as slaves of righteousness Rom 6:11-13

Sanctification is the carrying on to perfection the work begun in regeneration Rom.6:13; 2Cor.4:6; Col.3:10; 1John 4:7; 1Cor.6:19 It is the special office of the Holy Spirit in the plan of redemption to carry on this work 1Cor.6:11; 2Thess.2:13 Faith is the instrument by which union to Christ secures our sanctification Gal. 2:20

“and brings the believer into living contact with the truth, whereby he is led to yield obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come. Perfect sanctification is not attainable in this life 1 Kings 8:46; Prov. 20:9; Eccl. 7:20; James 3:2; 1John 1:8 See Paul's account of himself in Rom. 7:14-25; Phil. 3:12-14; and 1 Tim. 1:15; also the confessions of David Ps. 19:12, 13; 51, of Moses 90:8, of Job 42:5, 6, and of Daniel 9:3-20 "The more holy a man is, the more humble, self-renouncing, self-abhorring, and the more sensitive to every sin he becomes, and the more closely he clings to Christ. The moral imperfections which cling to him he feels to be sins, which he laments and strives to overcome. Believers find that their life is a constant warfare, and they need to take the kingdom of heaven by storm, and watch while they pray. They are always subject to the constant chastisement of their Father's loving hand, which can only be designed to correct their imperfections and to confirm their graces. And it has been notoriously the fact that the best Christians have been those who have been the least prone to claim the attainment of perfection for themselves.” AA Hodge- Outlines of Theology.

When Paul describes the Corinthian believers’ definitive sanctification the tense indicates an instantaneous act of God whereby they were changed from a state of corruption to that of holiness-"but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God" 1 Cor.6:11 Paul tells us that "Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish" Eph.5:25-27

“The design of Christ’s death was to make his people holy. It accomplishes this end by reconciling them to God, and by securing for them the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Charles Hodge-Ephesians

Sanctification and justification do not exist apart from each other, for both are God’s purposed result of union with Christ.The author of Hebrews points to the objective work of Christ as the foundation of our sanctification. "Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate" Heb.13:12 Christ’s shed blood not only removes the guilt and penalty of sin but also merits and guarantees the application of His work to His people. Thus our Lord is the "author," "captain" of salvation in the most comprehensive sense of the term Heb.2:10; 12:2

“Union with Christ is a very inclusive subject. It embraces the wide span of salvation from its ultimate source in the eternal election of God to its final fruition in the glorification of the elect. It is not simply a phase of the application of redemption; it underlies every aspect of redemption both in its accomplishment and in its application. Union with Christ binds all together and insures that to whom Christ has purchased redemption he effectively applies and communicates the same.” John Murray-Redemption Accomplished and Applied

“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.” Romans6:1-14

The apostle Paul in chapter 5 concluded his teaching of justification by faith apart from the works of the law. In the second half of the chapter, Paul sets forth the contrast between Adam and Christ. From Adam’s offense came the reign of sin and death. But Christ by His redemptive work brings justification and life. "Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more" (v. 21). In chapter six Paul introduces a new subject (sanctification) by asking the question "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" Rom.6:1 This question is reminds us of an earlier hypothetical objection to the gospel: "Let us do evil (continue sinning) that good may come (that grace may abound more and more)" Rom. 3:8 It was argued that if people are saved apart from the law and human merit (solely by grace) then Christianity is a religion of lawlessness. In other words, if you do not have to do good works to be saved then why not have a good time and sin as much as you please? Jude warned the church against such teaching when he wrote: "For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ" Jude 4

Grace does more than justify: it also sanctifies. It unites us to Christ (1-14) The question "How shall we who have died to sin live any longer in it?" (v.2) shows at the outset the absurdity of the false inference regarding grace. The power of sin in a believer’s life is broken for a distinct purpose that Christians may walk in newness of life. Christ's death causes "death to sin". His resurrection causes a new life of obedience by virtue of our union. The power of sin is not broken for a life of ease and comfort. Christians are saved unto good works Eph.2:10 The resurrection of Christ that took place objectively in the past is the basis of regeneration. There is a vital union between Christ and the elect that guarantees a believer's definitive sanctification and progressive walk in holiness. The resurrected Christ sends the Holy Spirit who first works monergistically to regenerate dead sinners and then works synergistically (participates, cooperates) in a believer’s progressive sanctification.

“It must be remembered that while the subject is passive with respect to that divine act of grace whereby he is regenerated, after he is regenerated he cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of sanctification. The Holy Ghost gives the grace, and prompts and directs in its exercise, and the soul exercises it. Thus while sanctification is a grace, it is also a duty; and the soul is both bound and encouraged to use with diligence, in dependence upon the Holy Spirit, all the means for its spiritual renovation, and to form those habits resisting evil and of right action in which sanctification so largely consists. Now, every Christian who really has experienced the grace of Christ must, unless very greatly prejudiced, recognize the fact that this work of sanctification is the end and the crown of the whole process of salvation. We insist upon and put forward distinctly the great doctrine of justification as a means to an end. It is absolutely necessary as the condition of that faith which is the necessary source of regeneration and sanctification; and every person who is a Christian must recognize the fact that not only will it issue in sanctification, but it must begin in sanctification. This element must be recognized as characteristic of the Christian experience from the first to the last. And any man who thinks that he is a Christian, and that he has accepted Christ for justification when he did not at the same time accept Christ for sanctification, is miserably deluded in that very experience. He is in danger of falling under the judgment of which Paul admonishes when he speaks of the wrath of God coming down from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, and with special reference to those who ‘hold the truth in unrighteousness.” A.A. Hodge-Evangelical Theology

 

[God's Word]

Hebrews 10:32-39

"But call to remembrance the former days, in which, AFTER YE WERE ILLUMINATED, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better substance. CAST NOT AWAY THEREFORE YOUR CONFIDENCE, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. BUT WE ARE NOT OF THEM WHO DRAW BACK UNTO PERDITION; BUT OF THEM THAT BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL."

Again, these were CHRISTIANS who had already been "illuminated" or "those who were once enlightened" (Heb. 6:4). As they had already been warned that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to be "renewed AGAIN unto repentance if they fell away", seeing how they would need to "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" (Heb. 6:6), even so were they now being warned of the same exact thing. Yes, these CHRISTIANS were once again admonished to "cast not away therefore your confidence", even as they had already been told that they were "Christ's house IF they held fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope STEDFAST UNTO THE END" (Heb. 3:6) and that "they were made partakers of Christ IF they held the beginning of their confidence STEDFAST UNTO THE END" (Heb. 3:14). The writer of this epistle to these Hebrew CHRISTIANS then cites from Habbakuk how that "the just shall live by faith". He continues, however, how that THE POSSESSOR OF SUCH FAITH WHO THEN "DRAWS BACK" ACTUALLY "DRAWS BACK UNTO PERDITION". Friends, PERDITION is NOT a place of "eternal security".

Continuing on to Hebrews chapter 11, we come to what has been called by many "the hall OF FAITH" or the "great cloud of witnesses" (Heb. 12:1) who have gone before us AND WHO MAINTAINED AN ENDURING FAITH, EVEN AT THE THREAT OF DEATH OR TO THE ACTUAL POINT OF DEATH FOR THEIR FAITH AND OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST. Again, IN CONTEXT, this "great cloud of witnesses" immediately succeeds the writer's admonition to NOT "draw back unto perdition". IOW, as is the common theme throughout scripture, WE MUST ENDURE TO THE END IN ORDER TO BE SAVED. Why all of these admonitions/exhortations/witnesses if "once saved, always saved" is true? As I've maintained all along, it isn't true, but is instead a heresy which contradicts the entirety of scripture. Also, although there are many who insist that such a "drawing back" merely/only refers to those who abandon their faith in Christ in order to "draw back" to the rituals of the Old Testament law (which would still refute "once saved, always saved"), the writer of this epistle constantly warns of those who draw back TO SIN. Yes, friends, as we've already read, Jesus Christ is "the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb. 5:9). This is not to say that a Christian will never momentarily sin in their lifetime, but rather that we must DAILY give heed to the Lord's voice and not allow ourselves to be "hardened by the deceitfulness OF SIN" (Heb. 3:13)...even to the possible point of "DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD with an evil heart of unbelief" (Heb. 3:12). We read:

Hebrews 12:1-4

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, AND THE SIN WHICH DOTH SO EASILY BESET US, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, LEST YE BE WEARIED AND FAINT IN YOUR MINDS. YE HAVE NOT YET RESISTED UNTO BLOOD, STRIVING AGAINST SIN."

As I mentioned in a previous post, the Christian's life is repeatedly likened to "a race" WHICH NEEDS TO BE FINISHED AND NOT JUST STARTED. In this "race", as good runners, we must "lay aside every weight, AND THE SIN WHICH DOTH SO EASILY BESET US". Jesus, as always, needs to be our example. He "resisted unto blood" in His striving against sin, even to the point of being nailed to a cross, and we need to be willing to do the same, if need be, in our own "strivings against sin". The author of this epistle then reminds these CHRISTIANS of an exhortation from Proverbs 3:11-12 which they had apparently "forgotten". We read:

Hebrews 12:5-17

"And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. IF YE ENDURE CHASTENING, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peacable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; AND MAKE STRAIGHT PATHS FOR YOUR FEET, LEST THAT WHICH IS LAME BE TURNED OUT OF THE WAY; but let it rather be healed. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord; LOOKING DILIGENTLY LEST ANY MAN FAIL OF THE GRACE OF GOD; LEST ANY ROOT OF BITTERNESS SPRINGING UP TROUBLE YOU, AND THEREBY MANY BE DEFILED; LEST THERE BE ANY FORNICATOR, OR PROFANE PERSON, AS ESAU, WHO FOR ONE MORSEL OF MEAT SOLD HIS BIRTHRIGHT. FOR YE KNOW HOW THAT AFTERWARD, WHEN HE WOULD HAVE INHERITED THE BLESSING, HE WAS REJECTED: FOR HE FOUND NO PLACE OF REPENTANCE, THOUGH HE SOUGHT IT CAREFULLY WITH TEARS."

As children of God, we must "endure chastening" and "faint not" when the Lord rebukes us FOR SIN in our lives. Yes, friends, when God shows us "that which is lame" in us, we need to repent and "make straight paths for our feet...LEST WE BE TURNED OUT OF THE WAY. Now, what do you suppose that that means? It means just what it says. We need to be LOOKING DILIGENTLY LEST ANY OF US FAIL OF THE GRACE OF GOD. "Fail of the grace of God"? But my opponent, in his error, would have us to believe that such is impossible. You need to choose, friends, whom you're going to believe:

1. The scriptures, IN CONTEXT.
2. Cherry-picked, OUT OF CONTEXT verses...verses which are REFUTED within the same epistles being cited...such as those that my opponent has been regularly offering.

I've made my decision and I'll not be swayed from it. As I already documented in a previous post, CHRISTIANS can "do despite to the Spirit of grace" (Heb. 10:29) and now we see that CHRISTIANS can also "FAIL OF THE GRACE OF GOD". It's not "Irrestible grace" (the "I" in Calvin's heretical "TULIP" teaching), friends. Rather, it's he who endures to the end shall be saved...EVEN AS JESUS CHRIST TAUGHT. We also see, if we don't shut our eyes, how that many are "defiled" by "roots of bitterness" and how "fornicators" and "profane persons", LIKE ESAU, CAN ACTUALLY SELL THEIR BIRTHRIGHT. Now, what do you suppose that that means? Friends, once again, it means just what it says. In the example of Esau, he "found no place of repentance" and he was ultimately rejected by God. So much so that scripture actually states that God "HATED ESAU" (Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13). Friends, God chastens us that "we might be partakers of his holiness" (Heb. 12:10) because "without holiness, no man shall see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14). It's not automatic, friends...we need to repent when God chastens us and let that which is lame be healed OR ELSE WE WILL BE TURNED OUT OF THE WAY AND FAIL OF THE GRACE OF GOD. This may not be the type of "grace" that some folks are accustomed to, but it is the grace revealed in scripture, nonetheless. In fact, continuing on, we read:

Hebrews 12:18-29

"For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake): But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. SEE THAT YE REFUSE NOT HIM THAT SPEAKETH. FOR IF THEY ESCAPED NOT WHO REFUSED HIM THAT SPAKE ON EARTH, MUCH MORE SHALL NOT WE ESCAPE, IF WE TURN AWAY FROM HIM THAT SPEAKETH FROM HEAVEN: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, LET US HAVE GRACE, WHEREBY WE MAY SERVE GOD ACCEPTABLY WITH REVERENCE AND GODLY FEAR: FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE."

AGAIN, we see that CHRISTIANS CAN REFUSE THEIR GOD WHO SPEAKS FROM HEAVEN AND THAT THEY WILL NOT ESCAPE IF THEY TURN AWAY FROM HIM.

How much plainer can it be, friends? "Once saved, always saved" is a HERESY. My hope for all who follow this debate and research the scriptures being presented for themselves is that you will all ENDURE UNTO THE END AND BE SAVED...BUT IT IS NOT "A GIVEN". AGAIN, the New Covenant is a "better covenant" that is based upon "better promises", BUT IT ALSO HAS SORER PUNISHMENTS ATTACHED TO IT FOR THOSE WHO VIOLATE IT. Yes, as we just read, "MUCH MORE shall we not escape, if we turn away from Him that speaks from heaven". "MUCH MORE"! Yes, friends, those who "refused God's voice" when He spoke FROM EARTH amidst the fiery tempests of Mt. Sinai DID NOT ESCAPE. "MUCH MORE", CHRISTIANS, WHO HAVE COME UNTO MT. ZION, SHALL NOT ESCAPE IF WE REFUSE HIM WHO NOW SPEAKS FROM HEAVEN. This isn't a game, friends. God has provided us with the necessary grace to finish this race, but it's not the "greasy grace" which some (many) preach and teach. No, as we just read, WE NEED GOD'S GRACE SO THAT WE MAY SERVE HIM ACCEPTABLY WITH REVERENCE AND GODLY FEAR: FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE. "Our God"? Yes, friends, with all of the superiority of the New Covenant to the Old Covenant, it is still THE SAME GOD AND HE IS A CONSUMING FIRE.

Deuteronomy 4:24

"For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God."

I'll stop here, having finished with the many admonitions and warnings in the epistle to the Hebrew CHRISTIANS and I will begin to further expose the error of "once saved, always saved" from other portions of the New Testament when my next turn in this debate comes.

Thank you.

 

[R Baker]

Before we go too far I need to examine some errors of my opponent. He states:

“My opponent also states that Jesus is “The Savior who completely saves to the uttermost with eternal salvation which perfectly and permanently sanctifies us 7:25” whereas the cited scripture states that “HE IS ABLE ALSO TO SAVE THEM TO THE UTTERMOST THAT COME UNTO GOD BY HIM” (Heb. 7:25). There’s a BIG DIFFERENCE there, friends. Whereas my opponent would have you to believe that it is automatic, the scripture states the contrary. Yes, Christ is ABLE TO SAVE US TO UTTERMOST, but we must do our parts and come to God through Him DAILY and “EXHORT ONE ANOTHER DAILY, WHILE IT IS CALLED TODAY, LEST ANY OF US BE HARDENED THROUGH THE DECEITFULNESS OF SIN” (Heb. 3:14). Of course, as has already been documented, the need for such DAILY EXHORTATIONS is because a CHRISTIAN can “depart from the living God” with “an evil heart of unbelief” (Heb. 3:12).” And: “Whereas my opponent would have us to believe that Jesus “permanently sanctifies us”, the author of this epistle to Hebrew CHRISTIANS plainly tells us otherwise.”

Please notice the “full” list of verses I provided-7:25, 27; 10:10-14; 18 I will include the missing verses:

25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them 26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, And on their mind I will write them,” He then says, 17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

“Able” above Gr. “dunamai”; power, ability.-Strong’s 1410. “Uttermost” Gr. “panteles”; finally and completely in all ways; of time: forever, for all time.-BAGD 608c 1979

My opponent imports into these texts man’s efforts to bring about his salvation (works-righteousness) by implying that while Christ is “able” to save a person (to the uttermost), Christ’s freedom (and sovereignty) to save (to the uttermost) whom he will is dependent upon that person’s autonomous freewill actions. Man has the ultimate authority to move God to regenerate him by man’s approving freewill. Then that man must perform, with some help from God of course, according to an (as yet) unspecified set of rules to the end. A man-centered gospel.

You cannot earn God’s favor.

“You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort? Have you suffered so many things for nothing? – if indeed it was for nothing? Does God then give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law or by your believing what you heard? Just as Abraham ‘believed God, and it was credited him for righteousness’, so then, understand that those who believe are the sons of Abraham. And the scripture foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, proclaimed the gospel to Abraham ahead of time, saying, ‘All the nations will be blessed in you.’ So then those who believe are blessed along with Abraham the believer. For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under the curse, because it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law’” Gal.3:1-10

Notice the “two-fold” effect of salvation by grace: justification (declared not guilty by the imputed righteousness of Christ) and sanctification (our “finish” in good works progressively) both predetermined (before ordained KJV) by God alone.

Originally Posted by R. Baker If someone could say: “Yea, but a Christian can still choose to desert God because of their freewill.” Really? Seriously? Are you stronger than God? Can you annul His decree? Can you reverse Jesus work? Can you negate His covenant promise and oath? Can you reverse God’s approving verdict of Jesus’ substitutionary sacrifice and intercession in your behalf by saying NO,not accepted. Can your will trump His? I hope the readers, and my opponent, can see the enormous inconsistency with the Biblical doctrine of God’s sovereignty in salvation, from the beginning to the end this line of thinking is, which authorizes man a position superior to God.

My opponent evidently holds that man sits on the throne of his salvation. Almighty God does all he can to save someone but with all of His efforts being ineffectual, until man grants his approval, He must bow down and submit to the more almighty power of man’s freewill. He asserts:

“Have you never read:Matthew 23:37

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, HOW OFTEN WOULD I HAVE GATHERED THY CHILDREN TOGETHER, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, AND YE WOULD NOT!"

"HOW OFTEN WOULD I HAVE GATHERED THY CHILDREN TOGETHER..."
There is the will of God.

"...AND YE WOULD NOT!"
There is the free will decision of man to reject God's will.”

I am certainly not against using a proof text when the context from which it is drawn supports an argument. But when one offers a verse leaving out the context- which actually means the opposite of one’s position, the reader can see that that person’s tradition has guided his understanding not any thoughtful exegesis of the passage. This single verse is one of the most mishandled and misrepresented texts, by those who attempt to impose their tradition against the clear meaning of the statements of Scripture, I know. Matthew 23:37-in context-is not about man’s will overcoming God’s will as my opponent would have you believe.

Beginning at verse 13:

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14[Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.]

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

16“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.’ 17 You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.’ 19 You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering? 20 Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. 21 And whoever swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. 22 And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.

23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

25“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?34“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

First notice that “WOES” are pronounced against the religious leaders of Jerusalem. Jesus repeatedly calls them: hypocrites, blind guides, sons of hell, fools, lawless, murderers, serpents, vipers, persecutors. All these follow verse 13

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Jesus says “How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.” They were “unwilling” to come to Christ. They continually dogged him threatening with expulsion from the synagogue community any of their “people”, their “proselytes”, their “children” who followed him. Jesus’ desire was to gather their children to him. However they were “unwilling” to allow their “children” to be gathered to Christ and receive the gospel which gives entrance to the heavenly kingdom.

Judgment is pronounced: “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!”

Whose will is sovereign?

The Jewish leaders were successful in having Jesus put to death. That was their desire. And they are culpable. But we also know that they were fulfilling God’s will. “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power… 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Although they tried to prevent their followers from being gathered by Jesus---whose will was dominating? “…look, the world has gone after Him.” Jn.12:19 After Pentecost the Apostles were so successful in gathering “their children” that the Jewish religious leaders proclaimed: “These that have turned the world upside down” Acts 17:6b Then in 70 AD Titus Vespasian destroyed the Jewish Temple leveling it right down to the ground and scattering, not only the Jews, but more importantly, the followers of Christ propelling them to proclaim the gospel throughout the world.

Their will was to effectually prevent God from the free-exercise and accomplishment of His will in gathering whomsoever HE chooses.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected (kept KJV) by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” 1Pet.1:3-5

Through faith-a gift from God. Through faith-not of works but unto good works. Good works are the result/fruit of being redeemed. There is our hope. There is our confidence. There is the Gospel we are to present to sinners. A God-centered gospel.

 

[God's Word]

How sad that my opponent calls Biblical truth "error". In his vain attempt to expose my alleged "error", my opponent has only managed to actually confirm the Biblical truths that I've been sharing. Yes, Jesus' sacrifice is "once for all", BUT THIS IS EXACTLY WHY "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED" IS A HERESY. As I've already shown, those who have been sanctified or set apart unto God by this "once for all" sacrifice can also "TREAD UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND COUNT THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WHEREWITH THEY WERE SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND DO DESPITE UNTO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE" (Heb. 10:29). For such, far from being "always saved", they have "A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION" (Heb. 10:27) as "THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SIN" (Heb. 10:26). IOW, as I've already documented, those who were "ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, AND WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, AND HAVE TASTED OF THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, THEN IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY TO THEMSELVES THE SON OF GOD AFRESH, AND PUT HIM TO AN OPEN SHAME" (Heb. 6:4-6).

IMPOSSIBLE!

Again, they were already "renewed unto repentance" and have consequently "fallen away" and it is now "IMPOSSIBLE" for them to be saved, seeing how they would need to "crucify the Son of God afresh".

So, yes, my opponent is correct in asserting that Christ's sacrifice was truly "once for all", BUT IF THIS "ONCE FOR ALL" SACRIFICE IS TRAMPLED UPON, THEN THERE IS NO SECOND CHANCE, as Christ will not be "crucified afresh".

Friends, can it get any plainer than that?

Jude certainly didn't believe in "once saved, always saved".

Jude 3-4

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Friends, this is a lot more than just some friendly "debate" that you're witnessing. Jude warned of those who would "creep in unawares" and "turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness"...thereby "denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ". What, EXACTLY, was Jude warning AGAINST? There's no need to guess. We read:

Jude 5

"I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, HOW THAT THE LORD, HAVING SAVED THE PEOPLE OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT, AFTERWARD DESTROYED THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT."

"Having saved".

"Afterward destroyed".

Does that sound like "once saved, always saved" to you?

Jude 6

"And the angels WHICH KEPT NOT THEIR FIRST ESTATE, BUT LEFT THEIR OWN HABITATION, HE HATH RESERVED IN EVERLASTING CHAINS UNDER DARKNESS UNTO THE JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT DAY."

The FALLEN angels were originally fine IN THEIR FIRST ESTATE. However, when they LEFT THEIR OWN HABITATION...

You see it, don't you?

These "ungodly men who were before ordained TO CONDEMNATION" are likened to Cain, Balaam and Korah. We read:

Jude 11

"Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core."

I'll come back to Cain in a moment, but Balaam was "ONCE" a prophet of God, wasn't he? Read his account in Numbers chapters 22-24 and you'll see that he "ONCE" had open communion and fellowship with God and even accurately prophesied the future. Where is he NOW? I'll give you a clue:

When God pronounces "WOE!" upon someone, it isn't a good thing. Was Balaam "once saved, always saved"? Don't kid yourselves, friends. NO, he was not.

What about Korah?

Wasn't Korah "ONCE" a priest of God? Read his account in Numbers chapter 16. Although Korah was "ONCE" part of the Levitical priesthood, THE EARTH OPENED UP AND SWALLOWED HIM ALIVE BECAUSE OF HIS REBELLION (Num. 16:32). Was Korah "always saved"? Again, don't kid yourselves. NO, he was not and this HERESY of "once saved, always saved" IS EXACTLY WHAT JUDE WAS ADDRESSING. Jude continued:

Jude 12

"These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves WITHOUT FEAR: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; TREES WHOSE FRUIT WITHERETH, WITHOUT FRUIT, TWICE DEAD, PLUCKED UP BY THE ROOTS..."

What do you suppose that that means? It means EXACTLY what it says. How could persons who were yet alive (which is whom Jude was describing, in context) be "TWICE DEAD"? Don't erroneously try to attribute this "TWICE DEAD" to "the second death" spoken of in Revelation. That "second death" comes AFTER people have already PHYSICALLY DIED. These folks, in contrast and in context, were yet alive and yet were described as being "TWICE DEAD". How can this be? It's not too difficult to figure out, friends...especially within the context of what Jude was describing.

THESE WERE FOLKS WHO WERE ONCE DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS AND WHO WERE BORN AGAIN. AFTERWARDS, THEY FELL AWAY AND WERE NOW "TWICE DEAD", EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE YET ALIVE.

Their "fruit" had "withered" and they were going to be "plucked up by the roots". Peter spoke of these same things. We read:

II Peter 2:1-4

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be FALSE TEACHERS among you, WHO PRIVILY SHALL BRING IN DAMNABLE HERESIES, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. AND MANY SHALL FOLLOW THEIR PERNICIOUS WAYS; BY REASON OF WHOM THE WAY OF TRUTH SHALL BE EVIL SPOKEN OF. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment..."

Friends, this isn't a game and this most certainly isn't merely "a debate". This is an open conflict between FALSE TEACHERS WHO PRIVILY BRING IN DAMNABLE HERESIES (YES, DAMNABLE HERESIES) and have MANY WHO FOLLOW THEIR PERNICIOUS WAYS and those who are speaking the truth...only to have such truths EVIL SPOKEN OF. Peter leaves NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER as to exactly what type of DAMNABLE HERESY he is referring to. Like Jude, Peter goes immediately to the angels who LEFT THEIR FIRST ESTATE, ONLY TO BE CAST DOWN TO HELL. Friends, I ask you, once again:

Does this sound like "once saved, always saved" to you?

Those who teach such, friends, IF WE'RE TO BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES, "bring upon themselves swift destruction". Personally, I'll not be counted amongst their lot. Peter, like Jude, continued on to say:

II Peter 2:15-17

"WHICH HAVE FORSAKEN THE RIGHT WAY, AND ARE GONE ASTRAY, FOLLOWING THE WAY OF BALAAM the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb @ss speaking with man's voice forbad the madness OF THE PROPHET."

Again, friends, Balaam was "ONCE" a prophet of the Lord. However, just like those "FALSE TEACHERS WHO PRIVILY BRING IN DAMNABLE HERESIES", Balaam "forsook the right way and went astray". Again, I ask:

Was Balaam "once saved, always saved"?

NO, friends, he was not. Peter continued:

II Peter 2:18-22

"For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, THOSE THAT WERE CLEAN ESCAPED FROM THEM WHO LIVE IN ERROR. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. FOR IF AFTER THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN, AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE WITH THEM THAN THE BEGINNING. FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEM NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIVERED UNTO THEM. BUT IT IS HAPPENED UNTO THEM ACCORDING TO THE TRUE PROVERB, THE DOG IS TURNED TO HIS OWN VOMIT AGAIN; AND THE SOW THAT WAS WASHED TO HER WALLOWING IN THE MIRE."

Friends, these people were "ONCE SAVED". Yes, they had "CLEAN escaped from them who live in error". The word that is translated here as "clean" means the following:

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
　

1) truly, in reality, in point of fact, as opp. to what is pretended, fictitious, false, conjectural

2) that which is truly etc., that which is indeed

Friends, these people were TRULY, IN REALITY, POINT OF FACT INDEED ESCAPED FROM THEM WHO LIVE IN ERROR, so don't let someone come along and deceive you into believing that they were never truly saved to begin with. Friends, these people were "ONCE SAVED"! Yes, they had "ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST" only to eventually be "AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME". For such, FAR FROM being "once saved, always saved", THEIR LATTER END IS WORSE WITH THEM THAN THE BEGINNING. Yes, Peter said that "IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEM NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAD KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIVERED UNTO THEM". Come on, friends. Open your eyes and don't be counted amongst the MANY who will be deceived by FALSE TEACHERS and their DAMNABLE HERESIES. Yes, friends, a dog CAN turn back to its vomit and a pig that WAS WASHED can turn back to wallowing in the mire.

What about Cain?

Cain murdered his brother because his own works were evil and his brother's works were righteous.

Friends, let me speak plainly to you...

Such is exacty the "spirit" which underlies such so-called "debates" as this one that you're presently viewing. Again, those who speak the truth will be evil spoken of. Please ask yourselves the following questions:

Who is exhorting you unto good works in this debate and all the more as the day of Christ's return is approaching and who is "feeding himself without fear"?

Friends, these sayings are in the scriptures which I've cited and they're not to be misconstrued as "flames" or anything of such a manner. Both participants in this debate cannot be correct as we're insisting upon two totally contrasting "truths". One of us is clearly in error and the scriptures and the Holy Spirit are our guides. Peter closed out his second epistle with the following admonition:

II Peter 3:13-18

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, BE DILIGENT THAT YE MAY BE FOUND OF HIM IN PEACE, WITHOUT SPOT, AND BLAMELESS. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, BEWARE LEST YE ALSO, BEING LED AWAY WITH THE ERROR OF THE WICKED, FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEDFASTNESS. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."

Peter admonished his readers unto DILIGENCE and told them to BEWARE LEST THEY ALSO BE LED AWAY WITH THE ERROR OF THE WICKED AND FALL FROM THEIR OWN STEDFASTNESS.

Again, what does this mean? It means EXACTLY what it says. Believers can FALL AWAY and "once saved, always saved" is a potentially DAMNABLE HERESY...just as I stated in a previous post.

How, then, do we show such DILIGENCE and keep ourselves from FALLING AWAY?

Peter answered such important questions earlier on in this same epistle when he wrote:

II Peter 1:5-12

"AND BESIDE THIS, GIVING ALL DILIGENCE, ADD TO YOUR FAITH VIRTUE; AND TO VIRTUE KNOWLEDGE; AND TO KNOWLEDGE TEMPERANCE; AND TO TEMPERANCE PATIENCE; AND TO PATIENCE GODLINESS; AND TO GODLINESS BROTHERLY KINDNESS; AND TO BROTHERLY KINDNESS CHARITY. FOR IF THESE THINGS BE IN YOU, AND ABOUND, THEY MAKE YOU THAT YE SHALL NEITHER BE BARREN NOR UNFRUITFUL IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. BUT HE THAT LACKETH THESE THINGS IS BLIND, AND CANNOT SEE AFAR OFF, AND HATH FORGOTTEN THAT HE WAS PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS. WHEREFORE THE RATHER, BRETHREN, GIVE DILIGENCE TO MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE: FOR IF YE DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kindgom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth."

Peter listed several things which we need to DILIGENTLY ADD TO OUR FAITH and which need to ABOUND lest we be found "barren and unfruitful" and lest we "forget that we were ONCE PURGED from our old sins". This, friends, is how we "MAKE OUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE" and this is how "WE NEVER FALL". This was both Peter's and Jude's "present truth" which is contrasted by the DAMNABLE HERESIES of FALSE TEACHERS.

 

[R Baker]

Hebrews 3:7-4:11

"Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,“ Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, as in the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tried Me by testing Me,and saw My works for forty years. “Therefore I was angry with this generation, And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, And they did not know My ways’; As I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest.’” Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, while it is said,“Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,“As I swore in My wrath, They shall not enter My rest,”although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.” Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,“Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience."

Hebrews 4:3: For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “As I swore in My wrath, They shall not enter My rest,” although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. It is we who have believed who are entering that rest.-“This tense is not to be imposed on the places where the proper signification of a word so timed is natural and genuine, as it is in this place. It is here, then, plainly affirmed that believers do here, in this world, enter into rest in their gospel-state.” John Owen, An Exposition of the Epistle to the Hebrews, vol. 4

The context of Heb. 4:3 makes no reference to tribulations and the necessity of perseverance in the midst of trials. Only faith is mentioned in the text as the means by which we (believers as opposed to unbelievers) are entering God’s rest. It is true that Israel in the wilderness experienced tribulation. It is also true that in other passages in Hebrews our pilgrimage in this world is viewed as a time of trial, testing, and tribulation 11:37 But Heb. 3:7–4:11 does not contain any reference to these. “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts”. The author of Hebrews applies the exhortation of Ps. 95:7 directly to the new covenant people of God. Because if the old covenant people of God had already entered God’s rest under the leadership of Joshua, then God would not have renewed the offer in David’s day 4:7-9 Therefore, the “promise of entering still stands” v 1 since those who were formerly offered that rest failed to enter it because of unbelief v 6

Read more at from this source: http://www.upper-register.com/papers/rest_hebrews.pdf

“Today” the word of salvation has been announced. “Today” the Son has fulfilled all the shadows of the old covenant. “Today” Christ has justified and sanctified the true spiritual Israel. How will the author’s audience respond? Will they respond in unbelief–an unbelief that returns to the external rituals of the old covenant? Or will they respond in faith. (11:1)?

 

[Angeldove97]

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[God's Word]

Matthew 25:1-13

"Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

Jesus Christ told this parable about ten virgins who took their burning lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom. Friends, they were ten virgins and not five virgins and five harlots, harlots, fornicators or adulteresses, so don't let somebody come along and deceive you into believing that five of these ten virgins were never saved to begin with. They were ALL saved at one point in time, but five of them didn't "endure to the end to be saved" by letting their "lamps go out". Friends, their "lamps" couldn't have "gone out" if they hadn't been lit at one point in time. Again, they were "once saved", but certainly not "always saved". In fact, this parable comes directly on the heels of what Jesus had been teaching in relation to His second coming. After mentioning how false Christs would deceive many, how there would be wars and rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes and pestilences, Jesus said:

Matthew 24:11-13

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, THE LOVE OF MANY SHALL WAX COLD. BUT HE THAT SHALL ENDURE TO THE END, THE SAME SHALL BE SAVED."

Friends, one's love cannot "wax" or grow cold unless it was once hot. Additionally, Jesus wouldn't have spoken of the necessity to "endure to the end to be saved" if MANY weren't going to drop out of the race...whether due to deception or due to their love of God growing cold because of abounding iniquity all around them. Friends, again, it matters not if we start right, but we must finish the race. Jesus continued:

Matthew 24:42-51

"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. BUT AND IF THAT EVIL SERVANT SHALL SAY IN HIS HEART, MY LORD DELAYETH HIS COMING; AND SHALL BEGIN TO SMITE HIS FELLOW-SERVANTS, AND TO EAT AND DRINK WITH THE DRUNKEN; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Friends, BOTH the faithful and wise SERVANT and the evil SERVANT were SERVANTS. Yes, friends, they both called Jesus "Lord" and they both looked forward to His second coming. The evil SERVANT, however, began to do evil as his Lord delayed His coming. As such, he didn't endure to the end and he most certainly was not "once saved, always saved". In fact, he was appointed his portion with the hypocrites and wound up in a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. This, friends, is the very introduction to the parable of the ten virgins that we're now examining. IOW, Jesus is still talking about the very same things...namely the need to ENDURE UNTO THE END IN ORDER TO BE SAVED. Again, these ten virgins all started out with lamps which were burning. Only five of the virgins, however, prepared for the long haul in that they also brought with themselves "vessels" in which was found additional "oil" to keep their lamps always burning UNTIL THE END OR UNTIL THEIR BRIDEGROOM RETURNED. All ten of these virgins called Jesus "Lord" and all ten of them were waiting for His return. IOW, they were ALL CHRISTIANS at one point in time, but only five of them ENDURED UNTIL THE END AND WERE SAVED. Even when the cry came that "the bridegroom cometh", these five foolish virgins sought "oil" and even went to those who sell to buy more "oil" for themselves. When they returned from their attempted purchase of such, they returned to find THE DOOR SHUT. Still, they stood outside the door and said, "LORD, LORD, OPEN TO US". Again, they called Jesus "Lord", but didn't have enough "oil" to see themselves through UNTO THE END. In case you don't already know, friends, "oil", in scripture, ofttimes signifies THE HOLY SPIRIT, in type. IOW, as I've already documented in previous posts, it is possible to "do despite to the Spirit of grace" (Heb. 10:29). Jesus followed up this sober warning with another equally as sober warning, when He continued on to say:

Matthew 25:14-30

"For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, WHO CALLED HIS OWN SERVANTS, AND DELIVERED UNTO THEM HIS GOODS. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, AND HID HIS LORD'S MONEY. After a long time THE LORD OF THOSE SERVANTS COMETH, AND RECKONETH WITH THEM. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, LORD, I KNEW THEE THAT THOU ART AN HARD MAN, REAPING WHERE THOU HAST NOT SOWN, AND GATHERING WHERE THOU HAST NOT STRAWED: AND I WAS AFRAID, AND WENT AND HID THY TALENT IN THE EARTH: LO, THERE THOU HAST THAT IS THINE. HIS LORD ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HIM, THOU WICKED AND SLOTHFUL SERVANT, THOU KNEWEST THAT I REAP WHERE I SOWED NOT, AND GATHER WHERE I HAVE NOT STRAWED: THOU OUGHTEST THEREFORE TO HAVE PUT MY MONEY TO THE EXCHANGERS, AND THEN AT MY COMING I SHOULD HAVE RECEIVED MINE OWN WITH USURY. TAKE THEREFORE THE TALENT FROM HIM, AND GIVE IT UNTO HIM WHICH HATH TEN TALENTS. FOR UNTO EVERY ONE THAT HATH SHALL BE GIVEN, AND HE SHALL HAVE ABUNDANCE: BUT FROM HIM THAT HATH NOT SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY EVEN THAT WHICH HE HATH. AND CAST YE THE UNPROFITABLE SERVANT INTO OUTER DARKNESS: THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."

Friends, ALL THREE OF THESE SERVANTS to whom the Lord gave "goods" or "talents" WERE JESUS' SERVANTS AT ONE POINT IN TIME. Yes, friends, Jesus "CALLED HIS OWN SERVANTS, AND DELIVERED UNTO THEM HIS GOODS". Two of THE LORD'S SERVANTS traded with what their Lord had given them and gave it back to Him at His return with "usury" or with interest. Both of these two SERVANTS OF THE LORD were commended for what they had done and ultimately entered into the joy of their Lord. In stark contrast, however, one of THE LORD'S SERVANTS WHO KNEW THAT JESUS REAPED WHERE HE HADN'T PERSONALLY SOWN (IOW, we're supposed to be "occupying until He comes" and sowing in His name with whatever He's given us) AND KNEW THAT JESUS GATHERED WHERE HE HADN'T PERSONALLY STRAWED (Ditto) BURIED WHAT THE LORD HAD GIVEN HIM IN THE GROUND AND SOUGHT TO ONLY GIVE BACK TO THE LORD WHAT HE HAD INITIALLY BEEN GIVEN AT HIS RETURN. Jesus' response? Friends, Jesus DIDN'T tell this SERVANT that he "mistakenly thought" that He was "a hard man", but rather judged him out of his own accurate assessment of the situation. Friends, this SERVANT was stripped of what he had originally been given and thrown into outer darkness where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. IOW, it certainly wasn't an instance of "once saved, always saved", was it? NO, IT WAS NOT! Friends, let my opponent continue to rail against such detailed truths in the Bible and mockingly deride them as "works salvation" or a "man centered salvation". Friends, a covenant is just that:

An agreement between TWO parties.

The Lord has graciously given us all things which pertain to life and godliness and He fully expects us to use them, not only to endure unto the end ourselves, but also to help bring others into the kingdom. If we don't do our parts, then it's not "once saved, always saved", but rather WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH IN OUTER DARKNESS that we can look forward to. Friends, it's no coincidence that Jesus immediately continued to teach of how, at His return, He's going to separate the sheep from the goats BASED UPON WHAT THEY DID OR DID NOT DO. Yes, friends, "wicked, slothful and unprofitable servants", like the one whom we just read about, don't fare well at all before the Judgment Seat of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 25:41-46

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, DEPART FROM ME, YE CURSED, INTO EVERLASTING FIRE, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS. FOR I WAS AN HUNGERED, AND YE GAVE ME NO MEAT: I WAS THIRSTY, AND YE GAVE ME NO DRINK: I WAS A STRANGER, AND YE TOOK ME NOT IN: NAKED, AND YE CLOTHED ME NOT: SICK, AND IN PRISON, AND YE VISITED ME NOT. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prision, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. AND THESE SHALL GO AWAY INTO EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT: but the righteous into life eternal."

Going back to the parable of the virgins for a moment, we need to understand that we're presently only "espoused" to the Lord and that the marriage supper of the Lamb has not yet taken place. Friends, we need to be preparing ourselves for this "marriage" in the same manner in which many a natural bride prepares for her own wedding.

Revelation 19:7

"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, AND HIS WIFE HATH MADE HERSELF READY."

Contrary to the error which my opponent preaches, this wedding will NOT be "a shotgun wedding"...which is exactly the type of scenario which my opponent describes. You know, where God allegedly "chooses" certain individuals APART FROM THEIR OWN WILLS from the beginning of time to salvation whilst simultaneously "choosing" others for damnation APART FROM THEIR OWN WILLS without any chance whatsoever of responding posiitively to His "marriage proposal" (figuratively speaking) or gospel proclamation. Friends, during our "espousal" period, we can fall away from Christ, if we're not careful. Paul was certainly afraid that such might happen with the Corinthians to whom he ministered. We read:

II Corinthians 11:2-4

"For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

In this case, as with the Galatians, Paul was afraid that those who once belonged to Christ might embrace "another Jesus", "another spirit" and "another gospel" as was being presented by the Judaizers of his day. Let my opponent quote how Paul addressed the "foolish Galatians" (Gal. 3:1). In so doing, HE'S ONLY PROVING MY POINT. IOW, Paul was concerned that the Galatians who had been "once saved" by grace had now "fallen from grace" (Gal. 5:4). Again, I ask:

Does ANY OF THIS sound like "once saved, always saved" to you?

Friends, "once saved, always saved" is a potentially DAMNABLE HERESY and I'll continue to proclaim as much as long as the Lord gives me breath. Jesus Christ is returning for "a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish" (Eph. 5:27). As such, I'll continue to exhort those who "name the name of Christ" to "depart from iniquity" (II Tim. 2:19) and also continue to provoke the same "unto love and good works...and so much more as I see the day approaching" (Heb. 10:25).

My opponent?

Well, he continues to basically tell you that "the fix is in". Of course, since he's not omniscient, he cannot tell you which side of the alleged "fix" you are on. IOW, he cannot tell you whether or not you've been "chosen" to partake in God's "shotgun wedding" for His Son or whether you'll be eternally damned. Seriously, friends, stick with the scriptures, IN CONTEXT. Afterall, it's your very souls which are at stake.

 

[R Baker]

Rebuttal of post 10

"Yes, Jesus' sacrifice is "once for all", BUT THIS IS EXACTLY WHY "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED" IS A HERESY. As I've already shown, those who have been sanctified or set apart unto God by this "once for all" sacrifice can also "TREAD UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND COUNT THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WHEREWITH THEY WERE SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND DO DESPITE UNTO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE" (Heb. 10:29). And-“So, yes, my opponent is correct in asserting that Christ's sacrifice was truly "once for all", BUT IF THIS "ONCE FOR ALL" SACRIFICE IS TRAMPLED UPON, THEN THERE IS NO SECOND CHANCE…”

My opponent implies Jesus’ sacrifice is once for all time but not really. An incoherent argument in violation of the law of non-contradiction.

If believers are lost, God loses more than they do, for he loses his honour, he loses his character for truthfulness, and the glory of his name is tarnished. 1429.468 Charles Spurgeon Charles Spurgeon Quotes

Because of the restriction of character spaces allowed in this debate I cannot reproduce the letter of Jude here, so if you would please open your Bible to Jude and read it here.

Notice he bypasses v1b: “To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ” The called are beloved and KEPT for Jesus Christ.

Vs 4 sets the tone. The point of Jude is to warn of false teachers who turn grace into a license to sin and refuse the Master and Lord Jesus Christ. This letter is not a context of losing one’s salvation. They were being exhorted to earnestly contend for the faith amidst false teaching.

In v5 my opponent attempts to equate God’s deliverance of the Jewish nation from physical bondage in Egypt with God’s salvation of His elect from the bondage of sin through the sacrifice of Christ. This event in history is a picture of spiritual redemption but the Exodus account is not identical to the salvation received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone. My opponent then tries to steer the readers into believing the absurd notion that God destroys (with eternal damnation) unbelieving believers. That for some reason after God enlightens the darkened mind, gives them a new heart that now loves Him and renewed will that desires to fully obey Him, forgiveness of all of their sins, the promise of eternal bliss in paradise, in other words that person is made a totally new creature now reconciled to God (2Cor.5:17-21)-that person would rather give all that back and go to hell.

Like man, angels were originally created with relative righteousness but mutable. It needs to be kept in mind that God has not provided salvation for angels but only the spiritual “seed of Abraham”. Heb.2:16; Gal.3:7,29 To use this false analogy as an example of losing one’s salvation is simply a red-herring logical fallacy irrelevant to the topic of the debate-an attempt to divert attention for lack of a sound argument.

My opponent constructs a straw-man logical fallacy concerning “twice dead” which he then burns with the statement “twice dead” means salvation lost.

“Twice dead; they had been once dead in their natural, fallen state; but now they are dead again by the evident proofs of their hypocrisy. Dead trees, why cumber they the ground! Away with them to the fire.” Matthew Henry Commentary

“Twice dead—In sin, first by nature, and afterwards by apostasy.” John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes

Twice dead; that is, entirely, thoroughly, and really dead in trespasses and sins, notwithstanding their pretensions to religion and godliness; or the sense may be, that they were not only liable to a corporeal death, common to them with all mankind, but also to an eternal one, or to the death both of soul and body in hell. Homer calls those diyaneiv, "twice dead", that go to hell alive: or rather the sense is this, that they were dead in sin by nature, as all men are, and again having made a profession of religion, were now become dead to that profession; and so were twice dead, once as they were born, and a second time as they had apostatized: John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

Apostasy: “Fall away”-As a noun (referencing Israel’s falling away) consists in its rejection of the Gospel. 6-p172,173; "This warning is addressed not merely to the Jewish leaders who encompass the death of Jesus but to the whole attitude of rejection which takes offence at the person and claim of Jesus. Falling does not mean becoming guilty; it refers to the possibility that Israel will persist in its guilt, or rather that it will be abandoned by God in its guilt, that it will be excluded from salvation.” 6-p164 Kittel’s TDNT

Not salvation lost but falling away from entering into salvation. Falling short of the gospel command in spite of the clear teaching and examples of the true believing community while living among them and experiencing the irrefutable conviction of the Holy Spirit testifying to the person and work of Christ.

My opponent “cherry-picks” vs3-6, 11, 12 in an attempt to bolster his position when the intention of the author is to exhort; “that you contend earnestly for the faith” Jude is demonstrating in this letter the complete antithesis between believers and unbelievers in Israel’s history.

Next my opponent assumes Balaam was “saved” and a prophet of God. Joshua 13:22 calls him a “qasam” Heb Strong’s 7080-conjurer, diviner. Balaam was one who “seeks omens” Num.24:1 One who counsels to “trespass against the Lord” 31:16 After describing false prophets and false teachers warning that they will exploit many with false words because of greed, Peter gives an account of several judgments that fell on those living ungodly lives (2Peter 2:1-6) Peter speaks of these “ungodly” as “following the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with the voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.” vss 15-16 Balaam displayed the same characteristics as those who were false prophets and teachers, those who were ungodly and unrighteous. Just because a person “speaks forth” God’s will does not guarantee that that person is saved. Was Caiaphas a saved person when “being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation…and planned together to kill Him”? Jn.11:51 Or the “slave girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune telling. Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, ‘These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation.’” Acts 16:16-17 This girl “spoke-forth” God’s truth. Was this girl ever a saved person? No, but demon possessed.-vs 18 Christ speaks of the demise of false professors in the last day-that great day of judgment. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’” I NEVER knew you! It is not that He knew them as sons and lost them. They were not once saved and gave it back. “Knew”: “I have never recognized you. Of God as subject recognize someone as belonging to Him, choose, almost=elect. BAGD p161, 7. 1979 They were never saved. God “put a word in Balaam’s mouth” 23:5, 12, 16 just as “the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey” Num.22:28 Nowhere in Numbers or any other account of Balaam does one get the impression that Balaam lost his salvation but he is pictured as a pagan diviner whom God used to fulfill His purpose.

2Peter 2:1-3
“But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”

My opponent assumes that Jesus purchases with His blood false prophets and false teachers.

Bought-Gr. Agorazo-when used in Scripture has both redemptive and non-redemptive usages.

Master(NASB)/Lord(KJV) Gr. Despotes-absolute ruler, despot towards slaves Strong’s 1203

"But to say that II Peter 2:1 is speaking of Christ lends absolutely no weight to the modified Calvinist position, for it must be established whether despotes can rightly refer in this verse, or any verse for that matter, to Christ as mediator....despotes is used about thirty times in the whole of Scripture-twenty times in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament and ten times in the New Testament. But never does it refer to the Father or the Son as mediator unless II Peter 2:1 be the exception. And if this be the case, the burden of proof rests upon those who wish to make it the exception, does it not?...Rather the dominant use of despotes in both the Old and New Testaments is of God as “absolute sovereign,” that is, as “sovereign Lord” and owner of each member of the human race." Gary Long, Definite Atonement, p.71.

Does 2Peter actually support the position of my opponent that those for whom Christ died can reject their salvation or rather that the Master owns them because He is their sovereign Creator? Can my opponent declare indisputably that the pronoun “them” in 2Peter2:1 refers to the false prophets not to “the people”? (OT Israel who was “purchased” from Egyptian slavery)

"Either:
1. The term is being used redemptively. Hence these were men who were bought by Christ (purchased, redeemed) but lost their salvation when they became apostate.
2. The term is being used non-redemptively; hence Peter is not addressing the extent of the atonement, but is providing an OT example (similar to Deut. 32:5-6) of a sovereign master (despot) who had purchased slaves and on that basis commanded their allegiance. Since Scripture is consistent with itself it would seem that the only viable option is that the text is to be understood non-redemptively. The preservation of the saints is a clearly revealed truth, and is maintained on the basis of Scripture’s teaching on the nature of the atonement (Heb. 7-10), and the resultant preservation of the saints (John 6:37-44). It is our contention, therefore, that a non-redemptive sense is not only consistent with sola scriptura (scripture alone) and tota scriptura (all of scripture), but it is the only sense that is established by the context itself. For when one considers, 1) the problem of ownership, 2) despotes and agorazo contextually defined, and 3) the absence of redemptive and mediatorial features in the very passage under dispute, then one will likewise see that the textual and exegetical data communicates a non-redemptive sense, perfectly consistent with the specificity of the atonement that the Bible so clearly presents." Simon Escobedo III Alpha and Omega Ministries, The Christian Apologetics Ministry of James R. White


If space allows I will address the 2Peter 2:15-22 passage in my next post.

If anybody said he had eternal life and lost it, he would be flatly contradicting himself. It could not be eternal, or else he must still have it. 2120.691 Charles Spurgeon Charles Spurgeon Quotes

 

[God's Word]

My argument regarding Jesus' sacrifice is neither incoherent nor contradictory, as my opponent falsely asserts. Jesus has been sacrificed for sin ONCE and He will not be crucified afresh (Heb. 6:6). For those who tread under foot the Son of God by sinning willfully and counting the blood of the covenant wherewith they were sanctified as an unholy thing, thereby doing despite unto the Spirit of grace, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES (Heb. 10:26-31). THIS is what my opponent calls "eternal security" and it is A HERESY.

I haven't bypassed Jude 1, either. We read:

Jude 1

"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ, and called..."

Again, those who were sanctified CAN COUNT THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WHEREWITH THEY WERE SANCTIFIED, AS AN UNHOLY THING AND DO DESPITE UNTO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE (Heb. 10:29). Having been purchased by this blood, Peter instructs US to pass the time of OUR sojourning here IN FEAR and to not return to OUR former lusts in OUR ignorance as WE'LL ALL face God's judgment (I Pet. 1:14-19).

Also, the Greek word that is translated as "preserved" in Jude 1 is the same word that is translated as "keep" in Jude 21. We read:

Jude 21

"KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

Again, we see that we have a vital part to play IN THIS TWO PARTY COVENANT. Yes, God "is able to keep us from falling" (Jude 24), but WE must "keep ourselves in the love of God" for the love of many will wax cold due to abounding iniquity. As Jesus said, we must endure to the end to be saved (Matt. 24:12-13). If we examine the context of Jude's statement, then this becomes even more apparent. We read:

Jude 17-18

"But, beloved, remember THE WORDS WHICH WERE SPOKEN BEFORE OF THE APOSTLES OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST; HOW THAT THEY TOLD YOU THERE SHOULD BE MOCKERS IN THE LAST TIME, WHO SHOULD WALK AFTER THEIR OWN UNGODLY LUSTS."

Here, Jude is referring to the words of Peter that I outlined in a previous post:

II Peter 3:1-3

"This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, AND OF THE COMMANDMENT OF US THE APOSTLES OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR: KNOWING THIS FIRST, THAT THERE SHALL COME IN THE LAST DAYS SCOFFERS, WALKING AFTER THEIR OWN LUSTS."

Whereas the Greek word "empaiktes" is translated as mockers in Jude 18, it is translated as scoffers in II Peter 3:3. In fact, this Greek word only appears twice in the New Testament and it is in these very two passages in which it appears. IOW, both Jude and Peter are talking about the very same things and the very same people. As such, we're not simply left to Jude's words to understand what he is saying, but we can also look to Peter's words for clarity.

II Peter 3:17

"Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, BEWARE LEST YE ALSO, BEING LED AWAY WITH THE ERROR OF THE WICKED, FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEDFASTNESS."

Peter, LIKE JUDE, was stirring up the pure minds of his hearers to the fact that mockers/scoffers who walked after their own lusts would seek to cause the saints TO FALL FROM THEIR OWN STEDFASTNESS. Did Peter and Jude see such as an IMPOSSIBILITY, as my opponent insists? No, they didn't. If it were IMPOSSIBLE, then neither Peter nor Jude would even be writing such WARNINGS TO CHRISTIANS. As I've already documented, Peter instructed his hearers to "give diligence to make their calling and election sure" (II Pet. 1:10) by "ADDING such things as virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity TO THEIR FAITH" (II Pet. 1:5-7). He said that those who ADD such things and have such things "IN ABUNDANCE SHALL NEVER FALL" (I Pet. 1:8-10). Conversely, he plainly said that those who don't ADD such things are "BLIND AND CANNOT SEE AFAR OFF AND HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT THEY WERE ONCE PURGED FROM THEIR OLD SINS" (I Pet. 1:9). Do "forgotten that they were ONCE PURGED from their old sins" and "falling from their own stedfastness" sound like "eternal security" to you? Again, it's not a "shotgun wedding" and we must "give diligence to make our calling and election sure" (I Pet. 1:10).

Although this debate is anything but humorous in nature, I could scarcely refrain myself from laughing as I read the remainder of my opponent's supposed rebuttal. My opponent ARGUES WITH HIMSELF and actually refutes his own position in his attempted rebuttal of what I've written. For example, there are MANY PROBLEMS with my opponent's assertion that Balaam was never a PROPHET of the Lord. In relation to Balaam, we read such things as:

Numbers 22:8-13

"And he said unto them, Lodge here this night, and I will bring you word again, AS THE LORD SHALL SPEAK UNTO ME: and the princes of Moab abode with Balaam. AND GOD CAME UNTO BALAAM, AND SAID, What men are these with thee? AND BALAAM SAID UNTO GOD, Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, hath sent unto me, saying, Behold, there is a people come out of Egypt, which covereth the face of the earth: come now, curse me them; peradventure I shall be able to overcome them, and drive them out. AND GOD SAID UNTO BALAAM, Thou shalt not go with them; thou shalt not curse the people: for they are blessed. And Balaam rose up in the morning, and said unto the princes of Balak, Get you into your land: FOR THE LORD REFUSETH TO GIVE ME LEAVE TO GO WITH YOU."

From the very first time that Balaam was inquired of by the king of Moab's messengers until the very last time that he was inquired of by the same, HE SOUGHT THE LORD GOD. As such, don't let my opponent deceive you into believing that Balaam was never saved or was never a true prophet of the LORD.

My opponent also seeks to deceive you in relation to the omens or enchantments which Balaam sought after, as if somehow Balaam was seeking such from false gods. THE SCRIPTURES tell us EXACTLY where Balaam sought such enchantments AND HE SOUGHT THEM FROM THE LORD GOD.

Numbers 24:1

"And when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he went not, AS AT OTHER TIMES, TO SEEK FOR ENCHANTMENTS, but he set his face toward the wilderness."

These OTHER TIMES are clearly documented for us IN SCRIPTURE. I've already documented one of these OTHER TIMES in my citing of Numbers 22:8-13 WHERE IT IS CLEARLY SEEN THAT BALAAM SOUGHT THE LORD GOD in order to curse Israel. The other "OTHER TIMES" are exactly the same. Read the account and don't let my opponent deceive you.

My opponent also argues AGAINST HIMSELF, attempting all sorts of scriptural gymnastics in the process, in his comparison between Balaam and the false teachers. We read:

II Peter 2:1-2

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in DAMNABLE HERESIES, EVEN DENYING THE LORD THAT BOUGHT THEM, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And MANY SHALL FOLLOW THEIR PERNICIOUS WAYS; BY REASON OF WHOM THE WAY OF TRUTH SHALL BE EVIL SPOKEN OF."

These false teachers DENY THE LORD THAT BOUGHT THEM. Yes, THEY WERE ONCE THE REDEEMED OF THE LORD, but they have since gone on to deny Him. We have even more evidence of this TRUTH, for we read:

II Peter 2:15-16

"WHICH HAVE FORSAKEN THE RIGHT WAY, AND ARE GONE ASTRAY, FOLLOWING THE WAY OF BALAAM the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb @ss speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of THE PROPHET."

Not only was Balaam once A TRUE PROPHET OF THE LORD, but these false teachers are likened to him in that they, TOO, FORSOOK THE RIGHT WAY AND HAVE GONE ASTRAY. One cannot FORSAKE that of which he was never a part, nor can one GO ASTRAY from that of which he never belonged. Again, these folks were "once saved", but certainly NOT "always saved". Having FORSAKEN THE RIGHT WAY THEMSELVES AND HAVING GONE ASTRAY, these "twice dead" teachers now seek to lead astray those who were "INDEED ESCAPED FROM THEM WHO LIVE IN ERROR OR THOSE WHO HAD ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF JESUS CHRIST, HAVING ONCE OBEYED THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIVERED UNTO THEM AND HAVING ONCE BEEN WASHED" (II Pet. 2:18-22). If it was impossible for such people to "FALL FROM THEIR OWN STEDFASTNESS" (II Pet. 3:17), then both Peter and Jude wouldn't have been WARNING CHRISTIANS to "BEWARE" (II Pet. 3:17) of such things. Despite such SEVERE WARNINGS AS THESE AND OTHERS, my opponent seeks to deceive you into believing that:
　

Falling does not mean becoming guilty; it refers to the possibility that Israel will persist in its guilt, or rather that it will be abandoned by God in its guilt, that it will be excluded from salvation

And, again:

Not salvation lost but falling away from entering into salvation.

What NONSENSE.

Peter WARNED of "FALLING FROM YOUR OWN STEDFASTNESS" (II Pet. 3:17) and Paul WARNED of those who had "FALLEN FROM GRACE" (Gal. 5:4).

Let's pause and examine my opponent's underlying Calvinistic beliefs and see how they relate to this debate:

Like the heretic Calvin, my opponent proposes what I've called "a shotgun wedding" in which God allegedly chooses, without any free will decision on the parts of those who comprise the bride of Christ, who will partake of the marriage supper of the Lamb. If such is indeed the case, AND THANK GOD THAT IT ISN'T, then god (I refuse to even capitalize it, as such a god in no way describes the God Whom I faithfully serve) is the most SADISTIC MONSTER imaginable. Consider with me the following:

I Corinthians 10:1-12

"Moreover, brethren, I WOULD NOT THAT YE SHOULD BE IGNORANT, HOW THAT ALL OUR FATHERS WERE UNDER THE CLOUD, AND ALL PASSED THROUGH THE SEA; AND WERE ALL BAPTIZED UNTO MOSES IN THE CLOUD AND IN THE SEA; AND DID ALL EAT THE SAME SPIRITUAL MEAT; AND DID ALL DRINK THE SAME SPIRITUAL DRINK: FOR THEY DRANK OF THAT SPIRITUAL ROCK THAT FOLLOWED THEM: AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. NOW ALL THESE THINGS WERE OUR EXAMPLES, TO THE INTENT THAT WE SHOULD NOT LUST AFTER EVIL THINGS, AS THEY ALSO LUSTED. NEITHER BE YE IDOLATERS, AS WERE SOME OF THEM; AS IT IS WRITTEN, THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND ROSE UP TO PLAY. NEITHER LET US COMMIT FORNICATION, AS SOME OF THEM COMMITTED, AND FELL IN ONE DAY THREE AND TWENTY THOUSAND. NEITHER LET US TEMPT CHRIST, AS SOME OF THEM ALSO TEMPTED, AND WERE DESTROYED OF SERPENTS. NEITHER MURMUR YE, AS SOME OF THEM MURMURED, AND WERE DESTROYED OF THE DESTROYER. NOW ALL OF THESE THINGS HAPPENED UNTO THEM FOR ENSAMPLES: AND THEY ARE WRITTEN FOR OUR ADMONITION, UPON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE WORLD ARE COME. WHEREFORE LET HIM THAT THINKETH HE STANDETH TAKE HEED LEST HE FALL."

My opponent says:

In v5 my opponent attempts to equate God’s deliverance of the Jewish nation from physical bondage in Egypt with God’s salvation of His elect from the bondage of sin through the sacrifice of Christ. This event in history is a picture of spiritual redemption but the Exodus account is not identical to the salvation received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone. My opponent then tries to steer the readers into believing the absurd notion that God destroys (with eternal damnation) unbelieving believers. That for some reason after God enlightens the darkened mind, gives them a new heart that now loves Him and renewed will that desires to fully obey Him, forgiveness of all of their sins, the promise of eternal bliss in paradise, in other words that person is made a totally new creature now reconciled to God (2Cor.5:17-21)-that person would rather give all that back and go to hell.

Whereas my opponent would have you to believe that Israel's deliverance from Egypt doesn't equate with God's salvation of His elect from the bondage of sin through the sacrifice of Christ, Paul says the opposite. Paul didn't want THE CHRISTIANS to whom he was writing to be ignorant of the fact that ALL OUR FATHERS WERE BAPTIZED UNTO MOSES, who was a type of Christ, IN THE CLOUD AND IN THE SEA. IOW, they ALL partook of both a SPIRIT (cloud) and WATER (sea) BAPTISM. THEY ALL ALSO ATE THE SAME SPIRITUAL MEAT AND DRANK THE SAME SPIRITUAL DRINK: FOR THEY DRANK OF THAT SPIRITUAL ROCK THAT FOLLOWED THEM: AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST! Not only this, but they ALL also placed THE BLOOD OF THE PASSOVER LAMB upon the lintels of their doorposts which typifies REDEMPTION THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST!

What was Paul's intent in reminding his readers of such things? To ensure them/us that we're somehow "once saved, always saved"?

NO!

Paul's intents were JUST THE OPPOSITE. Paul wrote these things to remind US that if WE do the same things (lust after evil things, be idolaters, commit fornication, TEMPT CHRIST, murmur, etc.) that our forefathers have done, then we, too, WILL FALL. "Fall" from what? Having never entered into salvation, as my opponent suggests? NO! FALL FROM SALVATION WHICH HAD ONCE BEEN ENTERED INTO. Friends, these things are OUR examples/ensamples TO THE INTENT THAT WE, CHRISTIANS, SHOULD NOT DO THE SAME THINGS THAT THEY DID AND FALL.

Back to the SADISTIC MONSTER "god" whom my opponent preaches...

The god whom my opponent preaches (listen carefully...this is EXACTLY what my opponent believes) had the Israelites who were overthrown in wrath in the wilderness (because god allegedly chose them for such before the foundation of the world and not because of their willful disobedience) APPLY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB TO THEIR LIVES, BE WATER AND SPIRIT BAPTIZED, EAT SPIRITUAL FOOD AND DRINK SPIRITUAL DRINK OF THE SPIRITUAL ROCK OF CHRIST WHO FOLLOWED THEM and they allegedly NEVER had a chance to be saved to begin with, because the god whom my opponent preaches allegedly chose them to be damned before the world began. IOW, god held the proverbial carrot on a stick before them, but they could NEVER eat it.

Got it?

I reject this carrot on a stick god for THE DEVIL that he is.

 

[R Baker]

Rebuttal of post 13

It would be very beneficial to the audience and to me if you (my opponent) would offer your view of justification and the atonement as our understanding and assertions regarding these components of salvation are vital to the issue of this debate?

It is not only improper to derive Biblical standards from stories intended as illustrations as an aide to interpretation, it is also dangerous to establish doctrine based on parables because parables do not determine or define doctrine. The reason this is dangerous is clearly demonstrated by my opponents importing his presupposition of the insecurity of believers, or perhaps better, the security of believers being dependent upon their own efforts for final justification and therefore not questionable but doomed to failure, into these parables in Matthew 24 and 25. Is that what these parables are illustrating?

Matt.24: 11-13;
As I touched on in earlier posts I fully agree that true believers must endure to the end. Endurance or perseverance to the end is the ultimate proof of one’s salvation. The true test that the spirit of God has applied the blood of Christ to any person’s soul is his being preserved by God to the end. There is absolutely no implication of the loss of salvation anywhere in this example, and therefore irrelevant to this debate.

Matt.25:1-13
My opponent attempts to build another straw-man by manufacturing an argument out of his imagination claiming what would be my interpretation of this parable-he, however, is wildly mistaken. Jesus himself defines the purpose of His illustration. He exhorts his listeners to “Watch” (be prepared) Why? Because no one knows the day or the hour of His return. Many interpreters have seen the word oil as a metaphor of the Holy Spirit. Could be. But to willfully go beyond the clearly defined intended purpose of the parable by Jesus Himself is arrogant, subjective speculation and not how doctrine is objectively established.

Matt.25:14-30; 41-46
It is evident that the interpretation of these parables turn on my opponent’s sole definition of “servant” as meaning a person who has received salvation-a good servant is a saved person who keeps himself saved and an evil/wicked servant is a saved person who loses his salvation. Is this compatible with Scripture’s use of the word? Or as was presented in post 10 God, by virtue of being Sovereign Creator, is Master of everything and everyone, therefore everything and everyone can rightfully be said to serve Him.

The parable of the talents is not difficult to understand if we draw out of the text its meaning and not import our traditions. You can see that there is nothing here regarding salvation or whether a Christian can lose their salvation. So once again for my opponent to use this text as support for the debate topic is a red-herring non-response. The interpretation is simple. As owner and provider of all, God is Lord and Master of all. All therefore are His servants. All owe Him a dutiful debt for what He has provided whether much or little, whether believers or unbelievers. All will give an account of what they were entrusted with as stewards to serve responsibly and faithfully to the Master’s benefit/glory. All will “reap what they sow” Gal.6:7 Those servants who demonstrated a heart of faithful service will reap accordingly and those servants who demonstrated an evil and unwilling heart which knew the Master’s requirements were left “without excuse” and judged accordingly.

Vs26 “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.

I am reminded of Romans 1:18 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom.9:22-23. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

Vessels Strong’s 4632 3a of persons-for the service of God. 3b the subjects of divine wrath Rom 9:22. 3c the subjects of divine mercy Rom 9:23

In all of my opponents arguments there seems to be no place for a lost person who retains his lostness, no place for a false-professor, false-believer, false-teacher or false-prophet who was never redeemed and continues to be only deceived and/or deceivers. This is clear because my opponent would have to give a rational explanation as to how one of God’s Elect/Chosen can un-choose himself. How one who has been placed “in Christ” can remove himself from being in that God-given relationship;

Eph.1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Pledge (NASB) earnest (KJV)-a down payment guaranteeing the completion of the transaction ie “the redemption of God’s own possession”

How can one contend that one has the power of will (choosing to lose their salvation or choosing to sin it away) to defeat God in what He has declared in this text?

As this debate has progressed I have shown that my opponent has indeed promoted a version of the Christian faith which depends on man’s self-effort to persevere to the end in order that he may finally obtain salvation. This error stems from the failure to discern the true gospel of Christ at the starting point of his theology. This is works-righteousness AKA Legalism. A brief exposition of the letter of Paul to the Galatians will shed light upon this sub-biblical teaching.

3:1 "You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law or by hearing with faith. 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you suffer so many things in vain— if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.” 11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” 12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

FAITH and WORKS are antithetical in our standing before God. The foundation of our JUSTIFICATION is the imputed righteousness of Christ (reckoned in our union with Him in His substitutionary sacrifice) through the instrument of the gift of faith. This is by God’s grace not by the works of the law. This justification is not only an initiatory act but includes the guarantee of sanctification (final perseverance) as well.-3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" perfected-Gr. epiteleo-accomplish perfectly, to carry out a thing to the full end. Strong’s 1909, 2005, 5055

17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 20Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
21Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Rom.3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Rom.5: 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. 6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Rom.6:22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

 

[God's Word]

It is not only improper to derive Biblical standards from stories intended as illustrations as an aide to interpretation, it is also dangerous to establish doctrine based on parables because parables do not determine or define doctrine.

Contrary to the latest false assertions of my opponent, my Biblical standards and doctrines haven't merely been derived or defined from parables, but rather have only been supported by such, even as my opponent admits that they should be. IOW, as my previous posts attest, I've gone to great lengths to establish such Biblical standards and doctrines from Hebrews, II Peter, Romans, I Corinthians, Galatians, etc., etc., so don't let my opponent deceive you. Furthermore, not only did Jesus end His parables with "He who has ears to hear, let him hear", thereby indicating that His parables are very useful to those who can actually discern what the Spirit of God is saying, but He also told His disciples that the parable of the sower was the key to understanding all of His parables. We read:

Mark 4:13

"And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?"

As Jesus indicated, a proper understanding of the parable of the sower is vital to properly understanding all of Jesus' parables. As such, I'll let JESUS CHRIST give us the proper interpretation of the same:

Luke 8:11-15

"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, WHEN THEY HEAR, RECEIVE THE WORD WITH JOY; AND THESE HAVE NO ROOT, WHICH FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, AND IN TIME OF TEMPTATION FALL AWAY. AND THAT WHICH FELL AMONG THORNS ARE THEY, WHICH, WHEN THEY HAVE HEARD, GO FORTH, AND ARE CHOKED WITH CARES AND RICHES AND PLEASURES OF THIS LIFE, AND BRING NO FRUIT TO PERFECTION. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, KEEP IT, AND BRING FORTH FRUIT WITH PATIENCE."

Friends, those on the rock RECEIVED THE WORD WITH JOY and not only BELIEVED FOR A WHILE, but also ENDURED FOR A WHILE (Matthew 13:21, Mark 4:17). IOW, they were "once saved", but NOT "always saved". Yes, friends, "when tribulation, affliction or persecution arose because of the word's sake" (Matt. 13:21, Mark 4:17), they were offended AND FELL AWAY AND DID NOT ENDURE UNTO THE END TO BE SAVED. Friends, again, one cannot "fall away" from that of which he/she was never truly a part.

Similarly, those among thorns SPRUNG UP (Matthew 13:5, Mark 4:5) and WENT FORTH, but the cares of this world choked THAT WHICH WAS GROWING and no fruit was borne unto perfection. Friends, in order to "endure unto the end and be saved" we must KEEP THE WORD AND BRING FORTH FRUIT UNTO PERFECTION WITH PATIENCE. THIS is what JESUS CHRIST taught and THIS is what I believe.

Hear another parable:

Matthew 18:21-35

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, WHICH OWED HIM TEN THOUSAND TALENTS. BUT FORASMUCH AS HE HAD NOT TO PAY, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, AND PAYMENT TO BE MADE. THE SERVANT THEREFORE FELL DOWN, AND WORSHIPPED HIM, SAYING, LORD, HAVE PATIENCE WITH ME, AND I WILL PAY THEE ALL. THEN THE LORD OF THAT SERVANT WAS MOVED WITH COMPASSION, AND LOOSED HIM, AND FORGAVE HIM THE DEBT. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellow-servants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid his hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellow-servant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellow-servants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. THEN HIS LORD, AFTER THAT HE HAD CALLED HIM, SAID UNTO HIM, O THOU WICKED SERVANT, I FORGAVE THEE ALL THAT DEBT, BECAUSE THOU DESIREDST ME: SHOULDEST NOT THOU ALSO HAVE HAD COMPASSION ON THY FELLOW-SERVANT, EVEN AS I HAD PITY ON THEE? AND HIS LORD WAS WROTH, AND DELIVERED HIM TO THE TORMENTORS, TILL HE SHOULD PAY ALL THAT WAS DUE UNTO HIM. SO LIKEWISE SHALL MY HEAVENLY FATHER DO ALSO UNTO YOU, IF YE FROM YOUR HEARTS FORGIVE NOT EVERY ONE HIS BROTHER THEIR TRESPASSES."

Friends, c'mon...does this REALLY need to be interpreted for you? Here is A SERVANT WHO HAD BEEN LOOSED/FORGIVEN OF HIS DEBT BY HIS COMPASSIONATE/PITIFUL LORD. IOW, he was "once saved". He wasn't "always saved", though, was he? NO, HE WAS NOT! This "once saved servant" LATER refused to forgive a fellow-servant from his heart and HIS LORD WAS WROTH AND DELIVERED HIM TO THE TORMENTORS TILL HE SHOULD PAY ALL THAT WAS DUE UNTO HIM. IOW, THE DEBT WHICH HE ONCE OWED HIS LORD WAS REINSTATED! Does this sound like "once saved, always saved" to you? Friends, it is possible to lose our forgiveness, even as JESUS CHRIST taught us in the Lord's Prayer. We read:

Matthew 6:12-15

"AND FORGIVE US OUR DEBTS, AS WE FORGIVE OUR DEBTORS. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. FOR IF YE FORGIVE MEN THEIR TRESPASSES, YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER WILL ALSO FORGIVE YOU: BUT IF YE FORGIVE NOT MEN THEIR TRESPASSES, NEITHER WILL YOUR FATHER FORGIVE YOUR TRESPASSES."

Friends, again, THIS SERVANT OF THE LORD WAS ONCE FORGIVEN OF HIS DEBT BY HIS COMPASSIONATE/PITIFUL LORD ONLY TO HAVE HIS DEBT REINSTATED BECAUSE HE LATER REFUSED TO FORGIVE A FELLOW-SERVANT. Friends, as I've said before and as I will maintain until my dying breath, "once saved, always saved" is not only A HERESY, but a potentially DAMNABLE HERESY in that it could possibly cause one's heart to "be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" (Heb. 3:13) and possibly cause one to "depart from the living God" with "an evil heart of unbelief" (Heb. 3:12).

In relation to Matthew 24:11-13, my opponent erroneously says:

There is absolutely no implication of the loss of salvation anywhere in this example, and therefore irrelevant to this debate.

Friends, backing up just a couple of verses to get the proper context, we read:

Matthew 24:9-13

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. AND THEN SHALL MANY BE OFFENDED, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. AND BECAUSE INIQUITY SHALL ABOUND, THE LOVE OF MANY SHALL WAX COLD. BUT HE THAT SHALL ENDURE UNTO THE END, THE SAME SHALL BE SAVED."

Friends, it's the same scenario that we just read about in the parable of the sower. Yes, friends, there are those who will BELIEVE FOR A WHILE AND ENDURE FOR A WHILE, but who will be unable to ENDURE UNTO THE END AND BE SAVED because they will be OFFENDED by the amount of persecution they will face for the Word's sake AND THEIR LOVE OF GOD (AGAPE) WILL WAX OR GROW COLD. Friends, it is that which is initially HOT that WAXES OR GROWS COLD, so, once again, don't let my opponent deceive you. Again, as JESUS CHRIST taught in Luke 14:26-35, it is NOT ENOUGH to "lay the foundation" (and no other foundation can be laid than JESUS CHRIST - I Cor. 3:11) AND THEN NOT BE ABLE TO FINISH WHAT WAS STARTED. Similarly, JESUS CHRIST also warned of how "salt that has LOST ITS SAVOUR" isn't even "fit for the dunghill", but is "CAST OUT". Friends, why did JESUS CHRIST warn about "SALT LOSING ITS SAVOUR" if such isn't even possible, as my opponent erroneously maintains? Friends, JESUS CHRIST is NOT a proponent of "once saved, always saved" and you'd be a fool to believe contrary to HIS TEACHINGS.

Additionally, and contrary to the wild assertions of my opponent, my comments in relation to the parable of the virgins are anything but "arrogant, subjective speculations". As my opponent hesitantly acknowledges himself, the term "oil" is ofttimes used in relation to THE HOLY SPIRIT in scripture and such is clearly the case in this particular parable. Again, the VIRGINS (not harlots, harlots, adulteresses or fornicators) all INITIALLY (once saved) had OIL IN THEIR VESSELS and the five foolish virgins allowed their OIL to run out and, consequently, their lamps stopped burning (NOT always saved). Also, they were ALL awaiting the Bridegroom's return and they even went to purchase more OIL when they heard the call that the Bridegroom was returning, only to ultimately find THE DOOR SHUT TO THEM (again, NOT always saved). Friends, we ALL KNOW what this parable is genuinely about, so let's neither delude ourselves nor allow ourselves to be deceived by those who TRULY "import their presuppositions" into their scripture reading and then falsely accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of. Additionally, and in relation to this very parable, my opponent states:

Jesus himself defines the purpose of His illustration. He exhorts his listeners to “Watch” (be prepared) Why? Because no one knows the day or the hour of His return.

Although it is true that Jesus repeatedly instructed His hearers to "Watch", my opponent fails to understand the significance of such...especially in relation to this very debate. Elsewhere, in relation to "Watching", Jesus said:

Revelation 16:15

"Behold, I come as a thief. BLESSED IS HE THAT WATCHETH, AND KEEPETH HIS GARMENTS, LEST HE WALK NAKED, AND THEY SEE HIS SHAME."

Friends, these words were uttered by JESUS CHRIST between the timeframe of the sixth and seventh vials of the wrath of God being poured out. Yes, friends, Christ hadn't yet returned as "a thief in the night", so if you're believing in the other HERESY regarding an alleged "pre-tribulation rapture", then you'd be wise to forsake that HERESY as well. Anyhow, JESUS CHRIST not only said that we should "Watch", but also that WE MUST KEEP OUR GARMENTS, LEST WE WALK NAKED, AND OTHERS SEE OUR SHAME. Again, friends, we ALL know why JESUS CHRIST said such things:

BECAUSE IT IS POSSIBLE TO SOIL OUR GARMENTS AND TO BE FOUND TO BE NAKED BEFORE HIM ON THAT GREAT AND DREADFUL DAY.

Yes, friends, as Christians, we're instructed to "keep ourselves in the love of God" (Jude 21) or to not let our love of God "wax cold" (Matt. 24:12) and we're also instructed to "hate even the garment spotted by the flesh" (Jude 23). Jesus Christ is coming back for a bride "not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish" (Eph. 5:27). As such, the Lamb's "wife must make herself ready" (Rev. 19:7) if she wants to partake of the marriage supper of the Lamb. As I said before, it won't be the "shotgun wedding" that my opponent preaches, but we have a vital part to play in this TWO PARTY COVENANT which is likened to A MARRIAGE all throughout scripture.

My opponent also erroneously believes the following to be "evident":

Matt.25:14-30; 41-46
It is evident that the interpretation of these parables turn on my opponent’s sole definition of “servant” as meaning a person who has received salvation-a good servant is a saved person who keeps himself saved and an evil/wicked servant is a saved person who loses his salvation. Is this compatible with Scripture’s use of the word? Or as was presented in post 10 God, by virtue of being Sovereign Creator, is Master of everything and everyone, therefore everything and everyone can rightfully be said to serve Him.

Despite my opponent's erroneous claim that "everything and everyone can rightfully be said to serve Him (God)", we read such Biblical truths as the following:

Joshua 24:15

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE; WHETHER THE GODS WHICH YOUR FATHERS SERVED THAT WERE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FLOOD, OR THE GODS OF THE AMORITES, IN WHOSE LAND YE DWELL: BUT AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD."

C'mon, friends! How many of us have a placard of some sort which bears this very portion of scripture upon it and adorns a wall in our very own homes? Joshua, who "wholly followed the LORD" (Num. 32:12, Josh. 14:8-9), KNEW FULL WELL, AS DO WE, that he and others HAD TO CHOOSE which God/god THEY WOULD SERVE, so for my opponent to suggest that all are automatically God's servants is LUDICROUS, to say the least. Yes, friends, being guilty of the very thing of which he falsely accuses me, my opponent's own "IMPORTED PRESUPPOSITIONS" hinder him from seeing what is plainly revealed for others IN SCRIPTURE. Additionally, in the parable itself, JESUS CHRIST makes a CLEAR DISTINCTION between His servants and the "citizens who hated him" (Luke 19:14). Yes, friends, JESUS' SERVANTS were those to whom He had given His talents and those whom He had told to "Occupy till He comes" (Luke 19:13). JESUS went on to explain how one of HIS SERVANTS, the one who had buried what HIS LORD had given him to trade with in a napkin in the earth, ULTIMATELY HAD WHAT HIS LORD HAD INITIALLY GIVEN HIM TO TRADE WITH TAKEN AWAY FROM HIM. Again, friends, we ALL know what this means, so let's neither delude ourselves nor allow ourselves to be deceived by others. Also, friends, don't miss the implications of my opponent's latest errors. IOW, while insisting that we are ALL God's servants, my opponent simultaneously insists that "god" CHOSE, BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, SOME OF THESE SAID "SERVANTS" TO BE VESSELS OF HIS WRATH, WITHOUT EVER HAVING HAD ANY CHANCE TO RESPOND POSITIVELY TO THE GOSPEL MESSAGE WHICH WAS REPEATEDLY HELD BEFORE THEM BY MY OPPONENT'S "CARROT ON A STICK "god"!

Yes, friends, my opponent's "god" is the most SADISTIC MONSTER ever preached in that he (I refuse to capitalize it) repeatedly held before "the vessels of wrath" that which was never truly available to them...according to my opponent's repeated errors, that is.

Well, that's all of the allotted space that I have. Lord willing, I'll address such terms as "election" and "predestination" in my next response.

 

[R Baker]

Towards the end of post 13 my opponent exposes another fatal flaw in his theology:

“Friends, let my opponent continue to rail against such detailed truths in the Bible and mockingly deride them as "works salvation" or a "man centered salvation". Friends, a covenant is just that: An agreement between TWO parties.”

He confuses or co-mingles the Old Covenant with the New. What makes the New Covenant New and Better is that Christ, the “second Adam”, stands as representative of all His children in the fulfillment of the first covenant and that His righteousness (His perfect obedience to the law of that Old Covenant) is imputed to us so that now (as always) it is by faith in Him, not our perfect obedience (which is impossible) required by the law, that justifies.

My opponent has lost sight of Christ as MEDIATOR. He not only takes upon himself but requires all to set aside Christ for self-effort. Instead of justification through faith producing works he insists in works producing justification that fulfills the requirements of the Covenant. “Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.” Gal.3:16 The one Covenant of Grace comes to us solely through our union with Christ. Not in our merits. But only “in Him”.

It has become increasingly more evident, in the course of this debate, that my opponent places his confidence in attaining the approval of God that will finally consummate in his acceptance into the heavenly kingdom, by maintaining a faithful Christian life through the performance of “good works” to the end.

In quoting Hebrews 5:8-9 he says “Jesus Christ is the author of ETERNAL SALVATION unto all them that OBEY HIM, friends.” He writes we are to “OBEY HIM” but sees and believes that to mean we must “OBEY” the “LAW”. On the contrary, in the soteriological context, to obey Him is the obedience of FAITH.

Rom.1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ.

16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen

Jn.6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

As for the humanistic system that attempts to achieve acceptance before God through maintaining one’s salvation to the end by means of one’s autonomous freewill producing the good works demanded by the Law:

“It is powerless to deliver from sin (Rom 8:3; Gal 3:21b-22) and was a temporary measure until the coming of Christ (Gal 3:19). Moreover, continued attachment to it is not only fruitless, but dangerous since the law demands total obedience of which none is capable (Gal 3:10-12). Law observance is thus both futile and fatal. As a substitute for or supplement to faith in Christ it ministers to legalism. Acceptance by God is possible only through faith in Christ crucified (Rom 8:3; Gal 2:16; 3:13-14)…While Paul's use of the term "works" exhibits a wide range of meaning from good to bad (see the double use in Eph 2:8-10), the significant phrase "the works of the law" often stands in explicit contrast with faith in Christ as the means of salvation (Rom 3:20-22, 28; Gal 2:16; 3:2, 5, 10). It is noteworthy that in several of these contexts the idea of boasting is also present (Rom 3:27; Gal 2:20a; 6:13). These examples seem best taken to mean legal works, that is, works done to commend the doer to God. As holding out the hope of salvation on the basis of human effort, such works are the antithesis of God's saving grace set forth in Christ crucified. Confidence in him alone, who, by his death fulfilled the law, is the sole means of deliverance from the law's demands, and so of avoiding legalism.” Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology

Acts 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” 6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

The premise asserted by my opponent that a true Christian can lose his salvation is based upon his presupposition of legalism which is in direct conflict with the gospel of the grace of God in Christ Jesus. Every argument he has presented elevates the ability of man to effect the accomplishment of his own perseverance to the end. I have debated Atheists and I have debated self-proclaimed Apostates and I have debated Synergists and they all have one darling in common that is-the “Golden Idol of Freewill” Augustus Toplady penned an article with this title: Arminianism: The Golden Idol of Free-will by Augustus Toplady You may know him better by his hymns:

A Debtor to Mercy Alone

A debtor to mercy alone, of covenant mercy I sing;
Nor fear, with Thy righteousness on, my person and off’ring to bring.

The terrors of law and of God with me can have nothing to do;
My Savior’s obedience and blood hide all my transgressions from view.

The work which His goodness began, the arm of His strength will complete;
His promise is Yea and Amen, and never was forfeited yet.

Things future, nor things that are now, nor all things below or above,
Can make Him His purpose forgo, or sever my soul from His love.

My name from the palms of His hands eternity will not erase;
Impressed on His heart it remains, in marks of indelible grace.

Yes, I to the end shall endure, as sure as the earnest is giv’n;
More happy, but not more secure, the glorified spirits in Heav’n.

Of course you know:

Rock of Ages

Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in Thee;

Let the water and the blood, From Thy wounded side which flowed,

Be of sin the double cure; Save from wrath and make me pure.

Not the labor of my hands Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;

Could my zeal no respite know, Could my tears forever flow,

All for sin could not atone; Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring, Simply to the cross I cling;

Naked, come to Thee for dress; Helpless look to Thee for grace;

Foul, I to the fountain fly; Wash me, Savior, or I die.

While I draw this fleeting breath, When mine eyes shall close in death, [originally When my eye-strings break in death]

When I soar to worlds unknown, See Thee on Thy judgment throne,

Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in Thee.

My opponent “knows” these hymns but he certainly cannot sing either of them and be consistent for they flatly refute and fly in the face of his belief system.

These hymns rightly reflect the sovereign grace of God in the salvation of sinners “to the praise of His glorious grace.”

That humanistic system that trusts in man’s innate goodness-having retained the ability in the natural (unregenerate) state to choose between two morally contradictory options (good or evil, right or wrong)-bases that assertion in human reasoning that refuses to accept the verdict of God’s revealed judgment of it in Scripture.

“The mind, swelled with self-conceit, says, the man should not stoop; the will, opposite to the will of God, says, he will not; and the corrupt affections, rising against the Lord, in defense of the corrupt will, say, he shall not. Thus the poor creature stands out against God and goodness, till a day of power comes, in which he is made a new creature.” Thomas Boston-The Sinfulness of Man’s Natural State "The Sinfulness of Man's Natural State" (Corruption of the Affections, Concience, Memory and Body) by Thomas Boston

That line in Rock of Ages: “Be of sin the double cure; Save from wrath and make me pure.” is the distinction found, in the redemption accomplished by Christ, of Justification (“Save from wrath”) and Sanctification (“Make me pure”). All that is required by God’s justice for the final salvation of His sheep is found “in Him” This “double cure” is also referred to as the “two-fold” grace of God.

“Man being at first created upright, but afterwards being not partially but totally ruined, finds his entire salvation out of himself in Christ, to whom being united by the Holy Spirit freely given without any foresight of future works, he thereby obtains a double blessing, viz., full imputation of righteousness, which goes along with us even to the grave, and the commencement of sanctification, which daily advances till at length it is perfected in the day of regeneration or resurrection of the body, and this, in order that the great mercy of God may be celebrated in the heavenly mansions, throughout eternity.” Calvin’s Institute Book 1 Sec IV

This two-fold grace or “double cure” of justification and sanctification – faith and repentance – are two distinct sides of the same coin of salvation-distinct but inseparable, freely given “in Christ” as the only sufficient means of redemption. My opponent misunderstands and blends these resulting in the error of works-righteousness and the accompanying loss of peace and rest and assurance.

When one merges sanctification with justification or repentance with faith so that man’s good works faithfully performed to the end are the meritorious cause of salvation, the inevitable result is a turning away from the gospel, doing despite to the Holy Spirit of grace, and falling into the error of legalism. I use repentance and sanctification as synonyms in this context in that they both are a turning away from sin and self and a turning toward God in faith and gratitude to a new life of love and obedience.

1Cor.1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption.

1Thess.5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

Titus2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Titus3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

“Here the grace of God is practically personified in its work to bring believers to spiritual maturity in keeping with the character of God and the very essence of His saving work in Christ. But how does the appearance of the grace that brings salvation train and correct us? By the very purposes of salvation that are seen in the coming of Christ and His death for sin. The apostle highlights this in verse 14, “He gave himself for us to (literally, “in order to”) set us free from every kind of lawlessness and to purify for himself a people who are truly his, who are eager to do good.” In addition, one should also consider Hebrews 2:14 and 1 John 3:5 and 8” J. Hampton Keathley111 The Foundation, Means, and Motivation for Godly Behavior (Titus 2:11-15) | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

If you are justified your sanctification is being accomplished as a certain result of God’s eternal plan.

 

[God's Word]

This is clear because my opponent would have to give a rational explanation as to how one of God's Elect/Chosen can un-choose himself. How one who has been placed "in Christ" can remove himself from being in that God-given relationship

Let's talk about election and predestination...

Isaiah 42:1-4

"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; MINE ELECT, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law."

Here, the prophet Isaiah CLEARLY IDENTIFIES JESUS CHRIST AS GOD'S ELECT. Compare what Isaiah said to Matthew's interpretation of the same in Matthew 12:14-21 and you will see that both of them referred to JESUS CHRIST as God's ELECT or CHOSEN. Yes, friends, JESUS CHRIST is the One Who was CHOSEN as God's ELECT from before the foundation of the world. Our election or choosing is CONDITIONAL upon our abiding and remaining IN HIM. IOW, God did NOT choose or elect any of us, per se. Rather, HE CHOSE CHRIST and all of those who are ultimately found to be IN HIM are therefore "chosen IN HIM" (Eph. 1:4). There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between what my opponent is saying and what the scriptures actually teach. Look at some of my opponent's statements from his opening post and hopefully you will see what I'm saying:
　

Jesus’ death was a penal, subtitutionary sacrifice which redeemed the elect whereby, in time, it is applied to His chosen people having been purchased with the blood of Christ.

In His time Christ’s accomplished redemption is applied individually to His chosen one and is experienced by them as a present reality: And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

The first event that had to take place for us to be saved is God's unconditional love and election of us in eternity past.

My opponent, in his persistent error, has US as having been CHOSEN, UNCONDITIONALLY, NO LESS, before the foundation of the world or "in eternity past" whereas the scriptures have JESUS CHRIST as having been CHOSEN or ELECTED. Again, our own election hinders directly upon whether or not we abide and remain in GOD'S CHOSEN OR ELECTED ONE, JESUS CHRIST. My opponent asks for a rational explanation of how one can "un-choose" himself? Well, for starters, we were NEVER chosen to begin with...at least not in the manner in which he erroneously insists that we were. Again, JESUS CHRIST IS GOD'S CHOSEN ONE OR ELECTED ONE and it is only those who abide and remain in Him who will ultimately be a part of God's elect "IN CHRIST". How can one "un-choose" or "un-elect" himself in this manner? Easily. Walk away from Christ and stop abiding IN HIM. What's "irrational" about that? Nothing.

Consider Noah's ark in relation to such terms as elected/chosen and predestination:

Noah's ark was God's elected or chosen means of salvation from the raging flood waters.

Noah's ark was predestinated by God to rise above the flood waters and to ultimately come to rest upon the mountains of Ararat.

Who/what determined who was upon the ark?

Did God, WHO IS NO RESPECTOR OF PERSONS (I Pet. 1:17), arbitrarily choose, before the foundation of the world, as my opponent would have us to believe, who would be saved from this disaster and who would perish?

Friends, God's Spirit had been striving with ALL MEN up until the time of the flood:

Genesis 6:3

"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

God had been striving with ALL MEN up until this point and He was STILL giving man another 120 years to repent before He brought the flood upon the earth. Noah was "a preacher of righteousness", wasn't he? Who do you suppose that he was preaching to and Who called him to such and for what desired end?

II Peter 2:5

"And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, A PREACHER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly..."

Continuing on in relation to the flood, we read:

II Peter 3:5-9

"For this THEY WILLINGLY ARE IGNORANT OF, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promises, as some men count slackness; BUT IS LONGSUFFERING TO US-WARD, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE."

Even in Peter's day there were those who were WILLINGLY IGNORANT. Well, not in my opponent's book they weren't..seeing how he denies that man even has free will and insists, rather, that we're some sort of robots who were pre-programmed by God before the foundation of the world. Also, we clearly see how that God is "NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE". Of course, my opponent seeks to hoodwink you into believing the exact opposite. Yes, friends, my opponent would have you to believe that it is "god" who actually predestined or chose or willed certain folks (the majority, no less) to his WRATHFUL DESTRUCTION, BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, never having had the opportunity (according to his heresy) to respond positively to the gospel message that this "carrot on a stick god" was constantly waving in front of their faces.

Friends, this is what my opponent believes:

1. That "god" ABDUCTED his son's bride, WITHOUT HER WILLFUL CONSENT, AND FORCED HER to betroth him (SHOTGUN WEDDING!).

2. That "god" IMPLANTED his son's SEED into said bride, WITHOUT HER CONSENT (FORCIBLE RAPE!).

3. That "god" FORCES said bride, WITHOUT HER CONSENT, to remain betrothed to his son and to never depart (IMPRISONMENT!).

This sounds like one of those HEINOUS CRIMES that we hear about on the news and my opponent calls this "the gospel"?!? Friends, place this SADISTIC MONSTER "god" on trial in any court of law across the globe and this ABDUCTING, IMPRISONING, RAPIST "god" would be sent to jail...EXACTLY WHERE HE BELONGS! This, sad to say, is exactly the "god" whom my opponent preaches to you.

Back to Noah:

God strove with ALL OF MANKIND, VIA HIS SPIRIT, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.

Noah aided God in His desired will and was a preacher of righteousness to the very same people whom God desired would repent and be saved.

Noah's ark was God's ELECTED or CHOSEN means of salvation.

Noah's ark was PREDESTINATED to rise above the flood waters and to rest upon the mountains of Ararat.

Now, to Jesus Christ:

God strives with ALL OF MANKIND, VIA HIS SPIRIT, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.

I Timothy 2:1-6

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. FOR THIS IS GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE IN THE SIGHT OF GOD OUR SAVIOUR; WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. FOR THERE IS ONE GOD, AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS; WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME."

What we've just read does NOT describe the "god" whom my opponent preaches. No, the "god" whom my opponent preaches PREDESTINES MULTITUDES OF PEOPLE TO ETERNAL DAMNATION BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. That "god", friends, is NOT the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ gave Himself A RANSOM FOR ALL, but my opponent, in his persistent error, has to change that to read "a ransom for all OF THE ELECT", with "elect" meaning those whom God allegedly arbitrarily chose to such before the foundation of the world. That's heresy, friends...plain and simple. WE must "give diligence to make our calling and election sure" (II Pet. 1:10), even as Peter preached and even as I've already documented in previous posts. Again, Christ is God's ELECT and those who abide and remain in Him will be part of God's "elect IN HIM". It's not that complicated, friends.

As with Noah, WE, TODAY, aid God in His desired will and are preachers of righteousness to ALL whom God desires to repent and to be saved.

As with Noah's ark, JESUS CHRIST is God's ELECTED or CHOSEN means of salvation and the offer to "come aboard" is given to ALL MEN.

As with Noah's ark, JESUS CHRIST was PREDESTINATED to rise from the dead and to be seated far above all principality and power and dominion and might. Those of us who abide AND REMAIN IN HIM are seated in exactly the same place.

Regarding calling and election or choosing, we read:

Matthew 22:1-14

"And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, AND SENT FORTH HIS SERVANTS TO CALL THEM THAT WERE BIDDEN TO THE WEDDING: AND THEY WOULD NOT COME. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, TELL THEM THAT ARE BIDDEN, BEHOLD, I HAVE PREPARED MY DINNER; MY OXEN AND MY FATLINGS ARE KILLED, AND ALL THINGS ARE READY: COME UNTO THE MARRIAGE. BUT THEY MADE LIGHT OF IT, AND WENT THEIR WAYS, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. BUT WHEN THE KING HEARD THEREOF, HE WAS WROTH: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. THEN SAITH HE TO HIS SERVANTS, THE WEDDING IS READY, BUT THEY WHICH WERE BIDDEN WERE NOT WORTHY. Go ye therefore into the highways, AND AS MANY AS YE SHALL FIND, BID TO THE MARRIAGE. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. FOR MANY ARE CALLED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN."

We ALL know what this parable is about, don't we? The King Who is making a marriage for His Son is God the Father and His Son is Jesus Christ. The servants whom God sent forth were His prophets and they bid the Jewish people to the wedding BUT MANY OF THEM WOULD NOT COME. WOULD NOT COME!...NOT "COULD NOT COME"! IOW, as we see all throughout scripture, these people exercised their God-given FREE WILL and CHOSE TO REJECT CHRIST! Even after this WILLFUL REFUSAL, GOD, WHO IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, sent forth additional servants and still bid them to come to the wedding. Of course, the SADISTIC MONSTER "god" whom my opponent preaches bids such folks to a wedding of which they could never actually partake, having allegedly been predestinated or chosen TO "god's" ETERNAL WRATH FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. Also, we see that God's wrath got kindled AFTER THEY WILLFULLY REFUSED HIS WEDDING INVITATION AND NOT BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD as my opponent would have us to believe. After most of Israel's WILLFUL REFUSAL, God sent His servants TO BID EVERYONE TO THE MARRIAGE. Again, if you follow my opponent's beliefs to their inevitable conclusion, then we must deduce that this SADISTIC MONSTER, CARROT ON A STICK WAVING "god" was inviting many such people to a wedding of which they could never actually partake, having been predestinated or chosen TO HIS ETERNAL WRATH BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. Finally, we see how that a guest showed up without a wedding garment and was ultimately thrust out into outer darkness. Friends, as I've already documented, the bride must "MAKE HERSELF READY" (Rev. 19:7), even as any natural bride does the same today. In fact, I'm going (Lord willing) to my nephew's wedding next Saturday and his fiancee has been "making herself ready" for her wedding day FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS SINCE SHE AND MY NEPHEW GOT ENGAGED. My opponent's "god" requires no such preparation. No, he just ABDUCTS, RAPES AND IMPRISONS...no WILLFUL participation or preparation required on our parts at all. Contrariwise, we see how truly "MANY ARE CALLED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN". Go back and reread the account and reread your entire Bible while you're at it. If you do, then you will easily see how such choosing IS TOTALLY RELIANT UPON HOW WE WILLFULLY RESPOND TO GOD'S CALL TO THE MARRIAGE OF HIS SON.

Joshua 24:15

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: BUT AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD."

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[R Baker]

One note on election: He hath chosen US in him before the foundation of the world… Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children Eph.1:4-5

From the moment we are saved we possess: ETERNAL life given by the ETERNAL God who is the source of ETERNAL salvation who out of His EVERLASTING mercy promises an EVERLASTING covenant of ETERNAL redemption saving from the EVERLASTING punishment of ETERNAL damnation according to His ETERNAL purpose imputing EVERLASTING righteousness as an ETERNAL inheritance.

Then why the exhortations, admonishments, and warnings to believers?

This question must be given a logical and thoroughly Biblical explanation in order to decide the outcome of this debate. So must my opponent give an explanation (beyond “begging the question”-It can’t mean that because a Christian can lose their salvation) for the overwhelming testimony of God’s preservation of His purchased possession.

Herman Bavinck 1854-1921 in his Reformed Dogmatics vol.4 states:

"Now the question with respect to this doctrine of perseverance is not whether those who have obtained a true saving faith could not, if left to themselves, lose it again by their own fault and sins: nor whether sometimes all the activity, boldness, and comfort of faith actually ceases, and faith itself goes into hiding under the cares of life and the delights of the world. The question is whether God upholds, continues, and completes the work of grace he has begun, or whether he sometimes permits it to be totally ruined by the power of sin...[Perseverance] is a gift of God. He watches over it and sees to it that the work of grace is continued and completed. He does not, however, do this apart from believers but through them. In regeneration and faith, he grants a grace that as such bears an inadmissible character; he grants a life that is by nature eternal; he bestows the benefits of calling, justification, and glorification that are mutually and unbreakably interconnected. All of the above-mentioned admonitions and threats that Scripture addresses to believers, therefore, do not prove a thing against the doctrine of perseverance. They are rather the way in which God himself confirms his promise and gift through believers. They are the MEANS by which perseverance in life is realized. After all, perseverance is also not coercive but, as a gift of God, impacts humans in a spiritual manner. It is precisely God's will, by admonition and warning, morally to lead believers to heavenly blessedness and by the grace of the Holy Spirit to prompt them willingly to persevere in faith and love. It is therefore completely mistaken to reason from the admonitions of Holy Scripture to the possibility of a total loss of grace. This conclusion is illegimate as when, in the case of Christ, people infer from his temptation that he was able to sin. The certainty of the outcome does not render the MEANS superfluous but is inseparably connected with them in the decree of God. Paul knew with certainty that in the case of shipwreck no one would lose one's life, yet he declares, 'Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved.' (Acts 27:22, 31)" (pp. 267-68)

No one can know with unmistaken certainty a professing Christian’s true spiritual condition and so we are exhorted to warn all of apostasy. Likewise, because of self-deception, we cannot infallibly know our own hearts and so we must take warning, examining ourselves, endeavoring to fulfill our duties in love to our Lord until we are received into the heavenly kingdom “so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end” Heb.6:11 “since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus” Heb.10:19 with a “sincere heart in full assurance of faith” Heb.10:22 we can “hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful” Heb.10:23 “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.” Heb.10:36

Let’s look again at my opponent’s claim that Galatians supports his argument.

1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

6:9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. 10So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

My opponent focuses on parts of sentences within Galatians as evidence that a Christian can therefore lose his salvation:

DESERTING Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel

therefore KEEP STANDING FIRM

YOU HAVE BEEN SEVERED FROM CHRIST

YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE

If these excerpts confirm beyond doubt that salvation can be lost one MUST conclude that Paul is declaring that these Galatian churches are lost and cannot be “renewed again unto repentance” Heb.6:6 However, I believe that Paul is not declaring that these Galatians have lost their salvation but are warnings given as a MEANS to move these Christians unto perseverance as explained above. Moreover if my opponent insists Galatians proves his point he must understand that by openly confessing that it is by his self-effort of works-righteousness to be finally justified and accepted by God, he is committing that very error of which here, as well as in Hebrews warns, that constitutes apostasy. 4You have been severed from Christ,YOU WHO ARE SEEKING TO BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW; you have fallen from grace.

Let me put it this way:
If my opponent is correct that a true believer can lose his salvation even though the gospel states that Christ has redeemed the elect sinner purely out of free grace, fulfilling the whole law in his behalf thereby meeting the requirement of the First Covenant of perfect obedience which no other could ever meet. That in spite of Christ’s perfect righteousness being imputed to His children by grace through faith. Regardless that Christ is in the heavenly sanctuary-the very presence of the Father- interceding for His sheep who have been given the down-payment of the third person of the Trinity to dwell in them as a guarantee of the final redemption of the purchased possession. Discounting the dual benefits accomplished by the Son of God in the atonement of justification and sanctification-being forensically declared “not guilty” by the Sovereign Judge of all the earth and His preservation of all those chosen “in Christ” before the foundation of the world. The Holy Spirit’s ever present enabling power reforming the Christian into the likeness of Christ to the end. In spite of all that is accomplished and applied to that saved sinner by God in Christ. That “good news” of the “New Covenant” is to be turned away from for a righteousness that is to be achieved by the resolute effort of man that must be good enough to be accepted by God, to the end.

The readers must see (even though my opponent does not) that that is the very error warned of in Hebrews and Galatians. My opponent has returned to the legalism of works-righteousness required in the “Old Covenant”. It is returning to “the weak and beggarly elements” Gal.4:9 “the elements of the world” 4:3; the bondage of law-keeping.

Gal.4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God... 31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

We can plainly see that Paul does not regard these “sons”, “heirs”, “brethren” and “children” as lost-as actually severed from Christ. Instead those severed are false-brethren who are-Gal.1:6 “deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!” A refusal to obey and submit to the outward “call” of the preached gospel of grace in Christ and turning away to the “other gospel” of works-righteousness for justification is “deserting Him” for a false gospel of self-righteousness. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.-by way of a legalistic observance of the law attempting to merit reward from God out of debt-making himself his own savior. A doctrinal perversion on so many levels.

Is not the very point of Paul’s letter to the churches in Galatia to warn them of the consequences of seeking the “different gospel” of “the works of the law” to be justified, which letter my opponent attests as supporting his theology? A primary rule of interpreting Scripture is submitting to the intention of the author.

APOSTASY is turning from the gospel message for a works-righteousness method and leaving the true church community, not losing a salvation that was never possessed -They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 1Jn.2:19

Col.2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. 16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God. 20If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22(which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence 3:1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

“This "philosophy and empty deceit," then, is said by Paul to follow "the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ" (Col. 2:8). The Colossian Christians, it seems, had at one time been subject to those "elemental forces," those "stoixeia", but through union with Christ by faith they had "died" in relation to those forces and so were no longer bound to obey them (Col. 2:20). The "elemental forces" play much the same part here as they do in the argument of Galatians 4:3, 9, where Christians (whether Jewish or Gentile by birth) who submit to circumcision and similar requirements of the Jewish Law are described as reverting to slavery under the "elemental forces." So, according to Paul's present argument with the Colossians, submission to the prohibitions "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!" (Col. 2:21) involves re-entry into the state of bondage from which believers in Christ have been delivered by Him.” Colossian Problems Part 3: The Colossian Heresy F.F.Bruce

“The canceled bond of Colossians 2:14, then, seems to be the Law, bearing witness against those who tried to use it as the way to justification or sanctification.” Colossian Problems Part 4 F.F.Bruce

Rom.9:30 “What should we say then? Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained righteousness—namely the righteousness that comes from faith. 31 But Israel, pursuing the law for righteousness, has not achieved the righteousness of the law. 32Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.” And so has my opponent.

My opponent’s system for persevering to the end by looking to works as the foundation of justification and sanctification severs one from Christ. There is his dilemma. If he is right and a Christian can lose salvation by insufficient law-keeping, it is a Pyrrhic victory. If he persists in his severing, works-righteousness legalism he loses all.

If he is wrong and a Christian cannot lose salvation because it is not based upon self-righteousness but Christ’s imputed righteousness then it shows that he has missed the Gospel and he still loses all.