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With every post you create I grow wiser and wiser.Do whatever you believe is right, according to the Word.
This keeps being used as an argument for self-defence, but I think it does not work. Please excuse the length of what follows but I want to be thorough.
The following text, from Luke 22, is often used to support the right to bear arms:
And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. 37"For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment." 38They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."
Obviously a “superficial” reading suggests that Jesus is advocating the “right” to carry a weapon. However, the fact that such a reading is deeply at odds with other things Jesus teaches should be a tip-off that things are not as they appear. And indeed, such is the case here. When this text is understood in broader context, we realize that Jesus is not making any kind of a case for the right to bear arms (swords or otherwise).
In order to arrive at the correct interpretation, we really need to step back and ask ourselves what Jesus’ larger purpose was in this dialogue. Note the connective “for” at the beginning of verse 37. It suggests that the material which follows is an explanation or amplification on the point just made – that the followers of Jesus are to sell their coats and buy a sword. So what is Jesus’ larger purpose?
It is that He been seen as a transgressor. Jesus is intentionally orchestrating things so that the Jewish authorities will have plausible grounds for arresting Him. Of course, appearing as part of an armed band would be precisely the ideal scenario to ensure Jesus’ arrest. Remember the “for” at the beginning of verse 37. If we are to be careful students of what Jesus is saying, we need to take seriously what Jesus says in verses 37 and 38 as qualifying and explaining his statement about buying a sword. We cannot simply gloss the text and conclude “Look, Jesus is making some kind of general statement about the right to self-defence with weapons”.
In fact, this very specific focus on the intent to be seen as a transgressor is powerfully sustained by Jesus’ statement that there is prophecy that He (Jesus) must be seen as a transgressor.
Remember the incident in the temple with Jesus overthrowing the tables of the moneychangers. This is not, as many people think, merely a repudiation of the sin of materialism. It is also a shrewd provocation on the part of Jesus. By creating a ruckus in the temple, He is forcing the hand of the Jewish leaders – they cannot allow such behaviour, Jesus must be arrested soon.
This is why, in the next verse, when the disciples say they have two swords, Jesus says “It is enough.” Obviously, if Jesus ever intended for the disciples to use the swords, two swords would not be nearly enough in any kind of armed action. But it’s enough to fulfill the prophecy by making Jesus appear to be participating in a violent revolutionary movement of some kind.
Unlike the “Jesus is supporting the right to bear arms” interpretation, note how the above interpretation makes sense of the entire account. If Jesus was really making some general statement about a “right to bear arms”, how exactly does that contribute to His being numbered with transgressors? And how does that make sense of the limit of two swords? Such a “right to bear arms” interpretation makes sense of neither. So it is almost certainly an incorrect interpretation of Jesus’ statement about buying a couple of swords.
You have not proven anything.I have spent pages and pages and pages providing my take on this very text. If you are interested in my basic position, please see post number 4.
As to your question about "allowing someone to murder me", I would say that is not easy to answer. I certainly believe Jesus would be opposed to people carrying weapons around. But I would not go so far as to suggest we should not resist physically if our life is under threat.
But we need to deal with one thing at a time. The Luke 22 text does not, repeat does not, support using a weapon in self-defence. This despite the frankly dishonest behaviours in this thread who repeatedly evade responsible, truthful dialog about this controversial text.
Why do you keep on saying that Jesus pretended to be a thug.I am sure lurkers and others are interested in how you explain that Jesus connects the sword instruction to a particular prophecy about Jesus being seen as a transgressor.
So please, forget sending us to commentaries; explain this connection to fulfilled prophecy in your own words.
He was pretending to be a criminal, lunacy.I have explained this many times. It's not rocket science. If Jesus's followers walk around as an armed group, He, as their clear leader will most certainly be seen as a transgressor.
Please answer post 98.
Have you not read Foxes Book of Martyrs (free online several places).Is it a christian teaching to allow someone to murder you?
This is basically 'classified' information - everyone may freely disclose why about themselves, but cannot as if for anyone else. (at least usually, it seems)Why is this topic so bothersome to some folks?
Sorry about this slip-up on your part.He, as their clear leader will most certainly be seen as a transgressor.
You want to be a Martyr go to Iran and do some missionary work, so how strong of a Christian you actually are.Have you not read Foxes Book of Martyrs (free online several places).
True testimonies of believers martyred through the centuries,
willingly dying for their faith, instead of even considering denying their faith in Jesus.
I guess the life of a hard criminal is more of value to you than the victim.You want to be a Martyr go to Iran and do some missionary work, so how strong of a Christian you actually are.
You want to be a Martyr go to Iran and do some missionary work, so how strong of a Christian you actually are.
I guess the life of a hard criminal is more of value to you than the victim.
Wow how dare I disagree with you. I am so sorry. Shame on me.I think that YHWH'S Blessing of martyrs is much more to be desired than what He does to mockers. A lot is written about both.
No mocking here, I know that you know it all, self righteous and pure. By the way what do you think of the MOAB.
Have you not read Foxes Book of Martyrs (free online several places).
True testimonies of believers martyred through the centuries,
willingly dying for their faith, instead of even considering denying their faith in Jesus.
It is not a fact and apparently it is open for debate.Denial is fascinating. We see it here. The text tells us why Jesus ordered the swords. So that a prophecy about Jesus being seen as a transgressor will be fulfilled.
This is a fact.
It is not open to debate.
Where in the new testament does it say christians can not work in positions such as police military or government.
Jesus didn't defend himself because he had to die in order for prophecy to be fulfilled.
Again where does it say they can not serve in these roles. God does not have different laws for believers and non believers."You cannot serve two masters" and "do not swear at all by heaven or by earth..." Every politician has to take an oath to abide by the will of the majority and by the constitution. There, that was simple.
If you feel that anyone should be able to what ever they want to you and you should do nothing to defend yourself go for it. There is a huge difference between between a smite on a cheek than there is being stabbed, shot, beheaded ETC. I will take precautions to protect myself and the innocent ole righteous one.Did the Apostles have to die to fulfill prophecy?
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