Can a Christian be a Freemason???

[Rev Wayne]

Absolutely, I stand firmly on my assertion. I wasn't talking about you defending your "raises," pay increases, or the lack thereof. I was talking about YOUR INCOME, period.

Pure semantics.

The bottom-line is, if your denomination has more Masonic membership in it than any other denomination in the world,

No, the bottom line is, you have in no way made any case for this at all. All we have on it is your word, and I think we've already shown not so many pages back, just how little that's worth.

than it stands to reason that the revenue it brings in and the income that supports its ministers comes predominately from Masons.

The only way this can "stand to reason," of course, would be if anything you have said was in any way related to "reason," which it clearly is not. First make your case for the other point, before you start claiming points that are predicated upon the verifiability of the first.

You don't seem to know the first thing about constructing an argument. Did nobody ever tell you, that before you can claim something to be so, it has to be SHOWN to be so? Your percentage for Masons in the Methodist Church, from my personal experience in the church, is completely and incontrovertibly SKEWED.

Oh, I almost forgot: PERIOD!


As a postscript and a further rebuttal to this ridiculous argument, Michael, have you done the math? Your claim is that there are so many Masons in the UMC, that you feel justified in claiming that my membership has more to do with where the paycheck comes from than anything else. Since you have failed (or neglected, or intentionally avoided) producing anything in the way of corroboration of your claim, then perhaps it's time to produce the most telling statistic that makes this one of your more laughable falsehoods.

Masonic membership in the U.S.------------1.5 million (bessel.org, 2005 statistics)

United Methodist membership in the U.S.-------8.2 million (WCC figures, 2006)

I ask you, readers, to look at this very closely, and very simply, for it is not complicated at all. For there to be any kind of majority of Masons in U.S. Methodist churches, they would have to number over half of congregation members, right?

Well, if you look at these figures, which should not be significantly different though coming from estimates that are one year apart, it easily becomes apparent that there are over 5 Methodists in the U.S. for every Mason!

What that means, in nuts and bolts, is: even if EVERY MASON IN THE U.S. were Methodist, they would STILL constitute a less than 20% minority in the UM churches! Since it's pretty safe to assume that Masons are FAR from unanimously Methodist, it appears you've been puffing your pipe out in the alfalfa patch again.

 

[Rev Wayne]

But that is NOT what you said. Observe this, what YOU said was, "Christians in the lodge love and worship Jesus Christ; those of other religions love and worship God as they see Him" (singular).

Had you really meant different gods (plural), then you would have said something like, "Christians in the lodge love and worship Jesus Christ; those of other religions love and worship 'their' god as they see it". That would have made a difference, but since you opted for the Masonic worldview of "God" instead, you have gone on record of agreeing with the Lodge, that ALL gods are one in the same. And I will hold it against you, forever, just as you have held my past comments against me.

Readers, for a good reference to what is going on with this ridiculosity, see my comments re alfalfa in the previous post.

Since WHEN do I need you tor write my sentences for me? And since WHEN do I need you to re-interpret what was meant when I posted this?

And the bizarre thing is, even though you make some incoherent assertion about the plural vs. the singular, even in the sentence you re-wrote, you STILL wound up with a singular "god" in your "correction."

Since you still seem so bent on this, and since you seem so blind to the total abandonment of logic in what you just posted, observe:

MY STATEMENT:

"Christians in the lodge love and worship Jesus Christ; those of other religions love and worship God as they see Him."

AND YOURS:

"Christians in the lodge love and worship Jesus Christ; those of other religions love and worship 'their' god as they see it".

For some foolish and mistaken notion, you seem to think that the key difference here lies in the singular versus the plural.

But as anyone can see, and which OUGHT to be plain as the font on your screen, and which does not make ONE WHIT of difference whether you read YOUR version or MINE, is:

Christians: "Jesus Christ"
Other religions: "God as they see him."

What I can't figure out is, who you thought it was that would be too dumb to know the difference between "Jesus Christ" whom Christians worship, and "God as other religions see Him," on a Christian forum?

 

[O.F.F.]

Wayne,

I thought you missed it last time, but now I see you simply ignored it, hoping it would disappear with subsequent posts. I repost Wilmhurst's Masonic heresy in response to your defense of it, but you are either obviously incapable of addressing it successfully, or too afraid or proud to admit what I've shown about him is true.

So the only way you can refute it is by reposting yours in the hopes that other readers' posts will continue to bury it. Nice try, but it won't work. I plan to publish ALL of your nonsense soon on our website, so that the entire world can see it. You can run like a scared coward if you want, but you can't hide the fact that, like Wilmhurst, you too are a Masonic heretic.

P.S. Reader's who may have missed it can click here to see what I'm talking about.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I thought you missed it last time, but now I see you simply ignored it, hoping it would disappear with subsequent posts. I re-post the false claims you made, but you are obviously incapable of admitting your own DECEPTIONS, or you are too afraid or proud to admit that your claims were proven FALSE.

So the only way you could avoid having to deal with it was by reposting more of your nonsense in the hopes that other readers' posts will continue to bury it. Nice try, but it won't work. I plan to publish ALL your nonsense RIGHT HERE, not remove it elsewhere, so your REPEATED FALSE CLAIMS on this forum will continue to repost until you ADMIT to them.

And until you DO, you can't hide the fact that you have been proven to have no compunction about posting claims that simply ARE NOT TRUE. The claim about Masonry in Methodism, refuted above, is a classic example of you tossing things out O.F.F. the top of your head, that have absolutely no foundation in truth. (That one, in fact, was shown to be numerically impossible.) So go ahead, run off like a scared COWAN to your website, this forum will be better O.F.F. for it.

As for Wilmshurst, why should the readers take it as anything other than, MORE of your CONTINUED FALSE CLAIMS? As a matter of fact, I could easily post right now what's wrong with your claim, having READ THE WHOLE BOOK, as I stated. But since you have been belligerently recalcitrant about the whole matter, until you are willing to concede a few points of your own rather than try to ignore them by talking around them, I have no intention of addressing ANY new material with you. Everybody knows it's standard procedure, before taking on "new business," to take care of the "old business" first. Sorry, but until the old business is taken care of--and of course, that's up to you--this new business is out of order.

p.s. Readers who may have missed it, can find examples of what I'm talking about in the first two posts on this page.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To wayseer,

As you know I am NOT talking about 'other gods'. I am talking about God. If we all worship God and God is one then we all worship the one God.

But we don’t all worship God as some worship for example Brahma and Allah. Allah doesn’t have a Son, God is Father Son and Holy Spirit. So you are talking about other gods, you are deceived.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Wayne,
I doubt that people are autommatically going to believe what you write as opposed to another who has been a freemason and so also potentially knows as much as you about it just with your assertions. I am sure most people are going to evaluate the debate.
For me the more you try and prove freemasonry isnt a deception, the more you show precisely why it is.

 

[wayseer]

o wayseer,
But we don’t all worship God as some worship for example Brahma and Allah. Allah doesn’t have a Son, God is Father Son and Holy Spirit. So you are talking about other gods, you are deceived.

Are you talking about worship or are you talking about God? They are two different things. You appear confused.

 

[wayseer]

To Wayne,
I doubt that people are autommatically going to believe what you write as opposed to another who has been a freemason and so also potentially knows as much as you about it just with your assertions. I am sure most people are going to evaluate the debate.
For me the more you try and prove freemasonry isnt a deception, the more you show precisely why it is.

I'm a Freemason. The only deception is your own thinking. FM is not a religion so stop trying to create an argument that does not exist. In fact no one is allowed to talk about religion in lodge.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Wayseer,

Are you talking about worship or are you talking about God? They are two different things.

Thats my point. to worship God one needs to do what God requires as worship, to worship Allah one needs to do what Allah requires as worship. God isnt Allah because God is Father Son and Holy Spirit, and Allah isnt and doesnt have a Son and is worshipped in a different way than God.

And this is what the Bible and the Koran say not freemasons or you and I.

 

[wayseer]

To Wayseer,
Thats my point. to worship God one needs to do what God requires

God does NOT require us to worship - he requires us to love the unloveable. But as FM is not a religion what has this got to do with FM?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To wayseer,

God does NOT require us to worship -

I wrote 'requires as worship' Jesus explained that to love Him is to do what He says.

 

[Rev Wayne]

For me the more you try and prove freemasonry isnt a deception, the more you show precisely why it is.

And for me, with that mantra being repeated over and over by the last dozen people who came in here posting, is like the same echo, just different day, different username.

And the fact that you take such a position is quite telling, since you have put forth no argument of your own (not that I can see) since you began to post. It's all on your say-so, or chiming in with Mike and back-patting his every word.

Funny thing is, that seems to be the pattern everywhere he goes, it's like he carries his own entourage.

It seems a pretty specious argument to suggest that since the accusers here can continue to find fresh angles of attack, that just because we address the arguments presented, somehow proves their point. Man, I'd like to have THAT scenario as the chief plank in ANY debate. All one would have to do, given that premise, would be to post ream after ream of argument, and then sit back with every return comment, fold your arms and say "See there? Your continuing to reply proves my point."

What kind of "logic," exactly, do you call that sort of reasoning?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Again, just spin. It all comes down to whether you believe God is who He says he is. The gaotu is a description of God as a creator, it doesnt call God by is name. If it did, YWHY, God the Father Son and Holy Spirit members of other religions woudnt join or recognise that as God.
Simple.

 

[wayseer]

To wayseer,
I wrote 'requires as worship' Jesus explained that to love Him is to do what He says.

What did Jesus say to do - Love your neighbour as yourself. Jesus did not ask anyone to 'worship' him. Perhaps you apply the same slipshod approach to FM as you do to the Bible.

My point is you are creating a strawman argument against which you can ceaselessly wage a a campaign of hate and intolerance directed an organisation which has nothing to do with religion - a point that your carefully avoid acknowledging.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Again, just spin. It all comes down to whether you believe God is who He says he is. The gaotu is a description of God as a creator, it doesnt call God by is name. If it did, YWHY, God the Father Son and Holy Spirit members of other religions woudnt join or recognise that as God.

Simple.

From our jurisdiction's manual:

The Holy Bible is given to us as the rule and guide of our faith; the Square, to square our actions; and the Compasses, to circumscribe our desires and passion in due bounds with all mankind, but more especially with Brother Masons; and hence the Bible is the light which enlightens the path of our duty to God; the Square, that which enlightens the path of duty to our fellow man; and the Compasses, that which enlightens the path of our duty to ourselves. (Ahiman Rezon, p. 73)

“A Lodge is an assemblage of Masons duly congregated, having the Holy Bible, Square and Compasses, and a Charter or Warrant of Constitution authorizing them to work.
Every lawful assemblage of Masons, duly congregated for work, will be “a just and legally constituted Lodge.” It is just, that is regular and orderly, when it contains the requisite number to form a quorum and when the Bible, Square, and Compasses are present. It is legally constituted when it is acting under the authority of a Warrant of Constitution.” (Ahiman Rezon, 87-88)

The furniture of a Lodge consists of a Holy Bible, Square, and Compasses. The Holy Bible is dedicated to God; the Square, to the Master; and the Compasses, to the craft. The Bible is dedicated to God because it is the inestimable gift of God to man; (Ahiman Rezon, p. 94)

The second section of this lecture is of pre-eminent importance. It recites the legend or historical tradition on which the degree is founded; a legend whose symbolic interpretation testifies to our faith in the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul, while it exemplifies a rare instance of virtue, fortitude, and integrity. (Ahiman Rezon, MM degree, p. 145-46, 2003 edition)

The small hill near Mount Moriah can be clearly identified by the most convincing analogies as being no other than Mount Calvary. Thus Mount Calvary was a small hill; it was situated in a westerly direction from the Temple, and near Mount Moriah; it was on the direct road from Jerusalem to Joppa, and is thus the very spot where a weary brother, traveling on the road, would find it convenient to sit down to rest and refresh himself; it was outside the gate of the Temple; and lastly, there are several caves, or clefts in the rocks, in the neighborhood, one of which, it will be remembered, was, subsequently to the time of this tradition, used as the sepulcher of our Lord. The Christian Mason will readily perceive the peculiar character of the symbolism which this identification of the spot on which the great truth of the resurrection was unfolded in both systems—the Masonic and the Christian—must suggest. (Ahiman Rezon, Page 149-50; Bold emphasis added)

It is hardly necessary to say that the letter G, wherever spoken of in Masonry as a symbol, is merely a modern substitution for the Hebrew letter yod, which was the initial of Jehovah, the tetragrammaton, and, therefore, constantly used as a symbol of Deity. (Master Mason degree, Ahiman Rezon, p. 151)

So I agree with you, someone of another religion really ought to have a problem with this. And in fact, most do. Muslims are among the most vocal and vitriolic of Masonry's critics. I have managed to find only one Grand Lodge website from a Muslim country (Lebanon), and even then, from the pictures on the site, it appears that the lodge members there are from that country's 30% Christian population rather than the predominate Muslim population (Bibles and crosses are very prominently displayed in the pictures). In most Muslim countries, Freemasonry is outlawed.

I really have no doubt that this is problematic for those of other faiths. But I think it is specious logic to try to deny what is clearly stated in more than one jurisdiction of Masonry, stating that the God of the Bible is the God who is affirmed in Masonry. In fact, I don't see how it COULD be denied, especially if you consider all the many allusions to the Bible in Masonry, and not just the direct references.

Nor do I buy it when you try to sell the idea that "Since this would clearly be problematic for those of other religions, it can't be true." The fact is, it is not a deniable premise, it is incontrovertible fact, that these things appear in this jurisdiction's manual, not to mention many others as well.

I am sure most people are going to evaluate the debate.

Apparently you aren't "most people." Because if you were, it would be a matter more of ignoring, than "evaluating," the following:

The bottom-line is, if your denomination has more Masonic membership in it than any other denomination in the world, than it stands to reason that the revenue it brings in and the income that supports its ministers comes predominately from Masons.

Mike was PROVEN to be telling a falsehood. Membership figures don't lie, and they totally REFUTE that claim.

Had you really meant different gods (plural), then you would have said something like, "Christians in the lodge love and worship Jesus Christ; those of other religions love and worship 'their' god as they see it". That would have made a difference, but since you opted for the Masonic worldview of "God" instead, you have gone on record of agreeing with the Lodge, that ALL gods are one in the same. And I will hold it against you, forever, just as you have held my past comments against me.

As shown, the statement as per Mike's change, STILL shows that I spoke of Christians worshiping Christ, and he couldn't even see the difference between worshiping Christ as opposed to saying "god as they see him."

Before that, it was:

Nowhere in any Prince Hall ritual, or any non-Prince Hall ritual, or anywhere else in Masonry for that matter, does it say that a Freemason MUST believe the Bible or any part of it

This was proven wrong by his own hand:

I truly believed that if I wanted to be the best Mason I could, it was imperative for me to adhere to what I was taught in the Lodge. With that goal in mind at that time, the primary thing I felt I had to obey was the fact that, if the Holy Bible is indeed the "Great Light" of Freemasonry and therefore, my "rule and guide for my faith and practice," then I had better obey the command found in the 1° degree of the ritual, where it says we should "faithfully direct our steps through life by the Light we there shall find."

Before that, he said he "NEVER" claimed Masons were going to hell.

And I subsequently posted enough citations from enough time frames, to PROVE he has been saying it for the last SIX YEARS.

Before that, it was, accusing me of "ridiculing" his testimony, when the only reference to his testimony had to do with his claims there, concerning what is found in the first degree of the ritual.

And HE HIMSELF even CONFIRMED it with an emphatic, "yes, this is found in the ritual," despite his later attempts to deny it when doing so was advantageous for him in pressing the Coil quote.

Before that, he was talking about a list of acceptable VSL's as published by one of the Grand Lodges, and he claimed it didn't even exist.

Yet it was subsequently PROVED that not only did the list exist, but also, it was MIKE who first posted it on the boards here in the first place.

Before that, Mike was shown being emphatic about a Pike quote in an exchange here:

Not just your grammar Corey, but you could work on your spelling too. More importantly though, you need help with interpreting the English language. So, let me help you better understand what Pike has said. Your interpretation would be correct if Pike said, "Masonry, like Religions. . ." However, he didn't say that, instead he said, "Masonry, like all other Religions. . ." The two words "all other" make ALL the difference, my brother.

And it was subsequently shown that Mike was not telling the truth, because the words "all other" do NOT appear in that citation from Pike, meaning that it was the ABSENCE of those two words, contrary to his claim, that made "all the difference."


That's only the tip of the iceberg. It defies all believability that you could claim:

I am sure most people are going to evaluate the debate.
For me the more you try and prove freemasonry isnt a deception, the more you show precisely why it is.

How in the world, given that he has been proven wrong REPEATEDLY, can you claim to be "evaluating the debate," when you have REJECTED, apparently, all these matters which have been proven right before your very eyes?

You can't ignore completely one whole side of a debate and claim to be "evaluating" it.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Rev Wayne,

From our jurisdiction's manual:

The Holy Bible is given to us as the rule and guide of our faith;

Sorry let me stop you there. Who is ‘us’? If freemasonry asks members to believe in a god then there cant be any members of other religions in the ‘us’ you are referring to, because they don’t have the Holy Bible as a guide to their faith.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To wayseer,

God does NOT require us to worship - he requires us to love the unloveable. But as FM is not a religion what has this got to do with FM?

Jesus Christ disagrees with you, God also requires worship, note not the five pilars of Islam but in spiirt and truth.
Matthew 4:10 "Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
John 4:24 “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

But as you dont consider the Bible inerrrant in matters of faith I can't expect the words of Jesus will chnage your own opinions.

 

[wayseer]

To wayseer,

Jesus Christ disagrees with you, God also requires worship

Where does Jesus 'disagrees with me'? Jesus made no requirement that he is to be worshiped.

John 4:24 “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

... and how does one do that? By demonstrating love.

But as you dont consider the Bible inerrrant in matters of faith I can't expect the words of Jesus will chnage your own opinions.

Where have I made any comment that I 'don't consider the Bible inerrant in matters of faith'? I consider those who consider the Bible inerrant in all matters as an unsupported hermeneutic. Jesus' words have already changed my life but the life I lead is not constrained by those who want to chain me to some fundamentalist pillar.

 

[wayseer]

Sorry let me stop you there. Who is ‘us’? If freemasonry asks members to believe in a god

Hold it right there - FM does not ASK anyone to believe in anything. As I keep say, with little obvious effect, FM is not a religion.

 

[Rev Wayne]

To Rev Wayne,
Sorry let me stop you there. Who is ‘us’? If freemasonry asks members to believe in a god then there cant be any members of other religions in the ‘us’ you are referring to, because they don’t have the Holy Bible as a guide to their faith.

A little too late to "stop me right there" after I've already posted the rest, don't you think?

Look, I can't help what someone of some other faith does with this, that's not my problem. My point has always been, Freemasonry is not a religion anyway, but if it was, which one would it have to be. And so far your responses have totally confirmed what I've always said when examining the evidence. If you truly start from a standoint of maintaining objectivity, it comes down very decidedly in favor of the God of the Bible as the God of Masonry. That means the ones who should REALLY have the problem with this are those of other religions, rather than the Christians who join.