Can a Christian be a Freemason???

SealedEternal said:

The story of Hiram Abiff parallels the story of Osiris in many ways,

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The Third Degree of Freemasonry has to do with the Hiramic Legend. You are correct regarding its parallel to the legend of Osiris, though not explained as such during the degree or its lecture. Most Masons who learn of this parallel, do so by further study of Freemasonry and the speculated origins of its symbolism. Here is an example from the revered Albert Pike:

The Egyptian legend was that the King of Byblos cut down the tamarisk-tree containing the body of OSIRIS, and made of it a column for his palace. Isis, employed in the palace, obtained possession of the column, took the body out of it, and carried it away. Apuleius describes her as "a beautiful female, over whose divine neck her long thick hair hung in graceful ringlets;" and in the procession female attendants, with ivory combs, seemed to dress and ornament the royal hair of the goddess. The palm-tree, and the lamp in the shape of a boat, appeared in the procession. If the symbol we are speaking of is not a mere modern invention, it is to these things it alludes.

The identity of the legends is also confirmed by this hieroglyphic picture, copied from an ancient Egyptian monument, which may also enlighten you as to the Lion's grip and the Master's gavel.

Morals & Dogma, by Albert Pike, p. 81

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The Lion's Paw or Grip, referred to, is the one used in the ceremony of the third degree ritual to raise a Master Mason from "a dead level to a living perpendicular on the square" (a Masonic waterless-baptism of sorts). And, the Master's gavel referenced relates to the "gavel of authority" of the head of a lodge who is called the Worshipful Master. So it makes perfect sense that this is no coincidence. As Pike says, if the symbols spoken of here (Hiram vs. Osiris, Lion's grip and Master's gavel) are not mere modern inventions, it is to these things (ancient mysteries) that they allude.

Additionally, the following excerpts from the legendary Dr. Albert G. Mackey, show the comparison of the two legends (Hiramic & Osirisic) and its ultimate purpose in Freemasonry of teaching the immortality of the soul:

A legend differs from an historical narrative only in this—that it is without documentary evidence of authenticity. It is the offspring solely of tradition. Its details may be true in part or in whole. There may be no internal evidence to the contrary, or there may be internal evidence that they are altogether false. But neither the possibility of truth in the one case, nor the certainty of falsehood in the other, can remove the traditional narrative from the class of legends. It is a legend simply because it rests on no written foundation. It is oral, and therefore legendary. . .

Take, for instance, the Hiramic legend of the third degree. Of what importance is it to the disciple of Masonry whether it be true or false? All that he wants to know is its internal signification; and when he learns that it is intended to illustrate the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, he is content with that interpretation, and he does not deem it necessary, except as a matter of curious or antiquarian inquiry, to investigate its historical accuracy, or to reconcile any of its apparent contradictions. . .

Osiris, the husband of Isis, was an ancient king of the Egyptians. Having been slain by Typhon, his body was cut into pieces18 by his murderer, and the mangled remains cast upon the waters of the Nile, to be dispersed to the four winds of heaven. His wife, Isis, mourning for the death and the mutilation of her husband, for many days searched diligently with her companions for the portions of the body, and having at length found them, united them together, and bestowed upon them decent interment,—while Osiris, thus restored, became the chief deity of his subjects, and his worship was united with that of Isis, as the fecundating and fertilizing powers of nature. The candidate in these initiations was made to pass through a mimic repetition of the conflict and destruction of Osiris, and his eventual recovery; and the explanations made to him, after he had received the full share of light to which the painful and solemn ceremonies through which he had passed had entitled him, constituted the secret doctrine of which I have already spoken, as the object of all the Mysteries. Osiris,—a real and personal god to the people,—to be worshipped with fear and with trembling, and to be propitiated with sacrifices and burnt offerings, became to the initiate but a symbol of the "Great first cause, least understood," while his death, and the wailing of Isis, with the recovery of the body, his translation to the rank of a celestial being, and the consequent rejoicing of his spouse, were but a tropical mode of teaching that after death comes life eternal, and that though the body be destroyed, the soul shall still live. . .

A similar legend and similar ceremonies, varied only as to time, and place, and unimportant details, were to be found in all the initiations of the ancient Mysteries. The dogma was the same,—future life,—and the method of inculcating it was the same.

The Symbolism of Freemasonry: Illustrating and Explaining, Its Science and Philosophy, its Legends, Myths and Symbols. by Albert G. Mackey, M.D.

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The danger for Masons who claim to be Christians is that, as they study these ancient mysteries, they are more apt to get interested in mysticism, the occult, and the study of ancient and modern world religions in "the quest to gain more light in Masonry," than in the truth of Christ and Christianity, by studying the Holy Bible and its commentaries instead.

Over time, as one persists in Freemasonry and the study of its philosophy, I believe that a satanic spirit influences most Masons to come to believe that the idea of "one religion in which all men agree" is far more noble, and much more greater than the one relationship which sets all men free. And as a result, they slowly lose their loyalty and support of biblical truth in favor of central truth common to all religions. Of course, this assumes they had at least an ounce of genuine Christian faith to begin with.

They always seem to be in the forefront whenever an obelisk is erected.

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They always seem to be in the forefront whenever ANY edifice is erected, or hadn't you noticed? There's a reason for it, too. Unlike the obelisk, the Cornerstone most definitely IS a Masonic symbol. For the explanation of its symbolism:

In the rich imagery of Orientalism, the corner-stone is frequently referred to as the appropriate symbol of a chief or prince who is the defence and bulwark of his people, and more particularly in Scripture, as denoting that promised Messiah who was to be the sure prop and support of all who should put their trust in his divine mission.*

*As, for instance, in Psalm cxviii. 22, "The stone which the builders refused is become the head-stone of the corner," which, Clarke says, "seems to have been originally spoken of David, who was at first rejected by the Jewish rulers, but was afterwards chosen by the Lord to be the great ruler of his people in Israel"; and in Isaiah xxviii. 16, "Behold, I lay in Zion, for a foundation, a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner-stone, a sure foundation," which clearly refers to the promised Messiah. (Albert Mackey, Symbolism of Freemasonry, p. 160)

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An example of its use in a Cornerstone ceremony:

From an address, on occasion of laying the Corner Stone of Vicksburg (Miss.) Lodge, No. 26, of AY. Masons:

We might pause here, one moment, to suggest the reflection which arises, that our most holy religion finds, in this ceremony, a beautiful emblem of the world’s Redeemer. “Wherefore, also, it is contained in the Scripture, Behold I lay in Sion a chief Corner-Stone, elect, precious, and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded. The laying of the corner-stones of the ancient temples, was a solemn recognition of Divine Sovereignty. In like manner are we called upon solemnly to recognise the being and attributes of the Supreme, Infinite, Eternal and Divine Architect of the Universe. We here solicit the Grand Eternal Master’s supervision of the work now begun.

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Wow, amazing! Right in the nick of time, just as SealedEternal is going under for the third time and facing the most thorough refutation of anything he has posted, here comes Mike with the cavalry to the rescue once again!

As Pike says, if the symbols spoken of here (Hiram vs. Osiris, Lion's grip and Master's gavel) are not mere modern inventions, it is to these things (ancient mysteries) that they allude.

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That's what Pike says. That's what Masonry's accusers say. That's not what anyone informed of Masonry's true history will say, for the speculative Masonry which utilizes symbols in illustration of principles of morality, clearly does not originate from any earlier than medieval times. And in fact, most of the symbolism now present in Masonry does not originate any earlier than the seventeenth century.

The most anyone can offer in trying to make direct assertions to objects or events of antiquity, is to point out a trowel or a square and say, "AHA! See there??" What that amounts to is a ridiculous notion that because there were workers in stone in ancient times, and because they used similar tools, that a "connection" has been established. The same thing happens with the events of the Osiris-to-Hiram comparison. There are actually very stark differences that set them apart, far more than there can be made any direct comparison. And so they continue to set forth ridiculous notions like "baptisms without water," as if something so bizarre could be so. If Masonry true intended the Hiram legend as a "baptism," it seems to be quite a suspension of logic to suggest that a system as highly symbolic as Masonry would leave out the one key element that constitutes a baptism. What gets me, these assertions are generally made by the same fundamentalist types who insist on immersion as the only valid form of baptism, and base it on interpretation of the Greek word "baptidzo," which they insist must ALWAYS be interpreted as "to immerse."

I think it is the accusers who concocted this hilariously preposterous gobbledygook who are immersed--in their own illogic.

P.S. "The revered Albert Pike????"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Over time, as one persists in Freemasonry and the study of its philosophy, I believe that a satanic spirit influences most Masons to come to believe that the idea of "one religion in which all men agree" is far more noble, and much more greater than the one relationship which sets all men free. And as a result, they slowly lose their loyalty and support of biblical truth in favor of central truth common to all religions. Of course, this assumes they had at least an ounce of genuine Christian faith to begin with.

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I love the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart, for he rescued me from a devil's prison of drug addiction, and lifted me from the miry clay to put my feet on a rock, giving me life, joy, and peace, blessing me with my family, and entrusting to me the ministry of the Gospel in His precious name.

If that is what you wish to call "satanic," then I will gladly bare the name from now till eternity for my Lord Jesus. But it's not like I didn't expect that, for "If they have called the Master of the house Beelzebub, how much more those of His household?"

Wayne said:

We've been pretty patient up until this point, but I think it's about time I share what's on my mind, and probably a few others here, and inform you that it's high time you gave up on quoting Albert Pike to us. We've pointed out for you more than enough times just how little value any citation of Pike, particularly from Morals and Dogma, has in making any case against Freemasonry. The book is ignored by anybody but anti-Masons, it is given little regard by anyone but esotericists, and it does not have, and never had, any authority in Masonry whatsoever, except in the minds of its critics.

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I'd beg to differ with you on this point. As mentioned before, Moral & Dogma is highly regarded and recommended by The Supreme Council, 33rd degree Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, Southern Jurisdiction, United States of America. In fact one of its leaders has made quite an extensive commentary on the book, which can be found by clicking on the following image:


To learn more about the religious teachings of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry click on the following link:

To learn more about the religious teachings of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry click on the following link

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To learn why nothing you will find on that link has anything to do with most Masons, just ask one. And in the absence of seeing the question addressed to any Mason, maybe I can help. There are three basic degrees of Masonry, known as the "Blue" Degrees. The third of these is Master Mason, and anyone with this third degree is entitled to any of the privileges of membership, holding offices, freely affiliating with any Masonic Lodge with whom he may wish to do so, and freely visiting in any Masonic Lodge. There are two bodies of further degrees the Mason may pursue if he chooses, the York Rite and the Scottish Rite. Most Masons don't pursue either one.

The things being presented here have been, for the most part, cited from Albert Pike's Morals and Dogma, which was written for the Southern Jurisdiction of Scottish Rite Masonry.

The reason I say this has nothing to do with most Masons is:

(1) A book written for Scottish Rite properly pertains to Scottish Rite.
(2) Most of what has been presented pertains only to degrees beyond the Blue Degrees; thus it would not pertain in any way to the majority of Masons who never progress beyond the Blue Degrees at all.
(3) Since Morals and Dogma has to do with Scottish Rite, it does not pertain to any of the many Masons who have chosen to progress beyond the Blue Degrees by pursuing the degrees of York Rite.
(4) Since Pike clearly states in his preface that none of the "theosophic or philosophic speculations" of the book are intended as "doctrines of the rite," then he has pretty much dismissed the claims of anti's to the contrary before he even begins the book.
(5) Since MOST of the content of the book IS "theosophic or philosophic speculations," there is very little left in the book that may be properly examined, or on which any valid criticism may be offered.
(6) But more to the point, since the book is ignored and/or rejected by the majority of Masons, it has little relevance to anything at all, even in Scottish Masonry, except in the imaginations of the ones doing the (mis-)quoting and accusing. The accusers would be better advised to consult the rites of the actual Scottish degrees which Pike wrote, and find content there to criticize, rather than citing from a worn-out, non-used, non-accepted, irrelevant tome which amounts to little more than a compendium of comparative religions with side-by-side comparisons of what the religions of history have had to say on various religious themes.

Since the Scottish Rite degree rituals are easily available to anyone who desires a copy, one can only wonder why they don't?

I'd beg to differ with you on this point. As mentioned before, Moral & Dogma is highly regarded and recommended by The Supreme Council, 33rd degree Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, Southern Jurisdiction, United States of America.

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Supreme Council, 33rd degree: can you tell us, Mike, just how many Masons are on that degree council? I think you know, and that would be a pitifully small number of Masons who "highly regard" this book. And since 33rd degree is by invitation only, exactly how does their opinion affect anyone else in Masonry at all? And since most Masons never even see the FIRST Scottish Rite degree:

How does anybody consider it a matter of any relevance whatsoever to be posting all this, and raving and ranting about what's wrong with it, while applying it to Masons to whom it has never and will never apply?????

Man, talk about a mystery!!

Most of what has been presented pertains only to degrees beyond the Blue Degrees; thus it would not pertain in any way to the majority of Masons who never progress beyond the Blue Degrees at all.

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However, what I posted from Morals & Dogma regarding the Hiramic Legend and its connection to the pagan god Osiris and the ancient mysteries, DOES pertain to the Blue Degrees, and you can't refute it. Therefore, it very much DOES pertain to the majority of Masons who may never pursue the higher degrees.

Wayne said:

I think it is the accusers who concocted this hilariously preposterous gobbledygook who are immersed--in their own illogic.

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There you go "thinking" again. As of late that's a dangerous past-time for you pastor. But go tell it to the Supreme Council of Scottish Rite Freemasonry. Here is what they have to say, in their official book A Bridge to Light, which makes your assessment of what is really taught look hilariously wrong.

According to A Bridge to Light, the symbolism of Freemasonry has been influenced by several pagan and occultic groups [p. 1]. The influence of these pagan and occultic groups can be found in several Scottish Rite rituals. In its discussion of the 9th degree, A Bridge to Light claims that one of this degree’s symbols originated in the mystical and occult school of the Jewish Kabalah [pp. 56-57]. Commenting on the 17th degree, A Bridge to Light quotes Pike, who indicates that two of the colors used in the degree are emblems of the sun and moon, which in turn are representations of the pagan deities Osiris and Isis [Morals and Dogma, p. 202, quoted in BTL, p. 133]. A Bridge to Light also claims that the 24th degree of Scottish Rite Freemasonry focuses on the mystery religions of the ancient world. Candidates for this degree are invited to compare the teachings of Masonry with these mystery religions [pp. 206-07]. In the commentary on the 28th degree, we are informed by A Bridge to Light that the eye of gold is a “symbol of the sun or of the Deity” [p. 247].

The book also explains the symbol of the gnostic worm as it is used in Scottish Rite Freemasonry [p. 251]. Of all the degrees of Scottish Rite Freemasonry, the 31st degree probably has the greatest uses of pagan symbolism. As A Bridge to Light explains, the ritual of the 31st degree is derived from the Egyptian Book of the Dead [pp. 299-300]. According to A Bridge to Light, Isis directs the Masonic candidate to “the altar of the great god Khem, the source of life” [p. 302].

From A Closer Look at A Bridge to Light by North American Mission Board

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So as you can see, Freemasonry does fine teaching very well what you claim its accusers of concocting. But that's not all, there's more regarding the pagan religious influence on, and the occult connections to Freemasonry, which you foolishly deny.

In addition to using pagan religions as a source for its teachings, Scottish Rite Freemasonry also has employed several occult sources. For example, astrology, which is a form of occult divination, is spoken highly of by A Bridge to Light. The book even claims that the biblical character Enoch was learned in astrology [pp. 88-89]. According to A Bridge to Light, the 28th degree of Scottish Rite Freemasonry studies the occultic practices of numerology, astrology, and alchemy [p. 158].

From A Closer Look at A Bridge to Light by North American Mission Board

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If you can't see the connection you are not just spiritually blind, you're in utter denial.

Wayne said:

Supreme Council, 33rd degree: can you tell us, Mike, just how many Masons are on that degree council? I think you know, and that would be a pitifully small number of Masons who "highly regard" this book.

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Yes I know how many, but I'll let the Supreme Council answer the question for you:

How many people belong to the Scottish Rite?

There are about 1.7 million Masons in the United States and about 550,000 of those are Scottish Rite Masons.

The Supreme Council, FAQs about Freemasonry

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Do the math pastor, that's ONE THIRD of ALL Masons in the U.S. And, it doesn't even include those of Prince Hall Affilliation, where I was a former Scottish Rite 32nd Degree Mason. But, if you think a half a million men is a "pitifully small" number I see now why you majored in English instead of Math.

Wayne said:

There are two bodies of further degrees the Mason may pursue if he chooses, the York Rite and the Scottish Rite. Most Masons don't pursue either one.

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Like the human body, they are indeed separate parts, but they are all very much connected into ONE Masonic whole (structure or body), as the following diagram shows. Furthermore, if any of them are Past Masters of a Blue Lodge, they would be honored by sitting in the East at every lodge meeting they attend in any jurisdiction including YOURS; and would be introduced there as such, including their credentials as 32nd or 33rd Degree Masons.

So don't pretend Blue Lodge members would be oblivious to their Scottish or York Rite status. You know very well that Blue Lodge Masons are strongly encouraged to pursue the higher degrees. That's why YOU are currently pursuing status as a York Rite Mason. By your own words, this makes you one of the minority, rather than one of "most Masons." So quit acting as though the higher degrees are so disjointed from the lower ones.

Wayne said:

How does anybody consider it a matter of any relevance whatsoever to be posting all this, and raving and ranting about what's wrong with it, while applying it to Masons to whom it has never and will never apply?????

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The better question would be how can a Christian, especially a pastor, who is a member of the Body of Christ, participate in the basic part of the Masonic structure knowing the paganism and heresy taught in one of the other parts of the whole Masonic body?

Pastor, you need to get real and stop all the falsehood and misleading. Face the reality of what Freemasonry is truly about, and get the heck out, while you still have a chance.

Rev Wayne said:

To learn why nothing you will find on that link has anything to do with most Masons, just ask one. And in the absence of seeing the question addressed to any Mason, maybe I can help. There are three basic degrees of Masonry, known as the "Blue" Degrees. The third of these is Master Mason, and anyone with this third degree is entitled to any of the privileges of membership, holding offices, freely affiliating with any Masonic Lodge with whom he may wish to do so, and freely visiting in any Masonic Lodge. There are two bodies of further degrees the Mason may pursue if he chooses, the York Rite and the Scottish Rite. Most Masons don't pursue either one.

The things being presented here have been, for the most part, cited from Albert Pike's Morals and Dogma, which was written for the Southern Jurisdiction of Scottish Rite Masonry.

The reason I say this has nothing to do with most Masons is:

(1) A book written for Scottish Rite properly pertains to Scottish Rite.
(2) Most of what has been presented pertains only to degrees beyond the Blue Degrees; thus it would not pertain in any way to the majority of Masons who never progress beyond the Blue Degrees at all.
(3) Since Morals and Dogma has to do with Scottish Rite, it does not pertain to any of the many Masons who have chosen to progress beyond the Blue Degrees by pursuing the degrees of York Rite.

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Even if that were true, my accusation has always been that only those at the highest degrees of Masonry know the true meaning of it, which is the entire point of the degree structure. It is admitted by the leaders of the craft that the lower level adepts are intentionally lied to, so I agree with you that the low level dupes have no idea they are involved in a satanic occult organization because nobody ever shares with them the real purpose of the organization, and will tell them anything but the truth to keep them blinded and seeking the greater enlightenment.

“The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explanation is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry.”

Morals and Dogma p. 819
Albert Pike


The whole extent and origin of the plan is known only to the Initiate few -- the sages or "elect" -- of the mystery religions, while members of the outer order are subjected to a selective system by which they strive to attain to higher degrees and proportionately receive deeper insight into the work. This then encourages them to strive more intensely to climb the ladder, and makes them useful instruments to the high level adepts. Those who prove themselves to be enlightened will rise up the ladder quickly, while the rest are kept as useful idiots to protect the illuminated few, and will remain in the lower degrees forever.

So, yes I agree with you that the majority of low level dupes do not study the esoteric occult information written by the people I have been quoting, and most of them will never fully understand the real purpose of the organization they are in, who is intentionally leaving them in the dark. They are content with receiving the privileges and comradery of being allowed in the lodge, and don't particularly care about the deeper implications of the organization they are involved in, or desire to become elite occultists and discover the so-called enlightenment of the ancient mysteries. They are perfect candidates for being used as a shield to protect the "elect" who do strive for these things.


SealedEternal

However, what I posted from Morals & Dogma regarding the Hiramic Legend and its connection to the pagan god Osiris and the ancient mysteries, DOES pertain to the Blue Degrees, and you can't refute it. Therefore, it very much DOES pertain to the majority of Masons who may never pursue the higher degrees.

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Not when Pike says anyone may reject any or all of what he reads in the book. I reject the Osiris comparison, but not because I reject Pike--actually, I reject the foundation on which the comparison is made. Masonry never had origins that went that far back. But of course, you already know that, you’re just spitting in the wind.

So as you can see, Freemasonry does fine teaching very well what you claim its accusers of concocting. But that's not all, there's more regarding the pagan religious influence on, and the occult connections to Freemasonry, which you foolishly deny.

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Strange—I’m sure you know where to find the rituals of the Scottish Rite, just as surely as I do. Yet, rather than provide the proof which you always said was NECESSARY, Grand Lodge material, or in this case, its dynamic equivalent—that is, Scottish Rite documents that would be comparable to Grand Lodge constitutions and codes, approved by Supreme Council—you choose instead to post the comments from a book TALKING ABOUT Scottish Rite??

If you can't see the connection you are not just spiritually blind, you're in utter denial.

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Oh yeah, I see the “connection,” all right. It’s a connection based on a statement that says, “according to A Bridge to Light,” which is the same as saying, it’s NO connection, since A Bridge to Light is not the equivalent of the materials you say are required to support arguments concerning Blue Lodge. Maybe you should get a little more “light” yourself, the light of understanding what you address before you speak. From the BC/Yukon Grand Lodge website:

Morals and Dogma was traditionally given to the candidate upon his receipt of the 14th degree of the Scottish Rite. This practice was stopped in 1974. Morals and Dogma has not been given to candidates since 1974. A Bridge to Light, by Rex R. Hutchens, is provided to candidates today. Hutchens laments that Morals and Dogma is read by so few Masons. A Bridge to Light was written to be "a bridge between the ceremonies of the degrees and their lectures in Morals and Dogma." While recommended to Masons, we cannot conclude that Masons are expected to accept every thought in A Bridge to Light. Books by liberal theologians and writings by non-Christian philosophers are assigned by professors in Baptist colleges and seminaries. Students are not expected to accept the teachings found in these books and writings. Rather, they are assigned to help students understand the thoughts of men of the past and their struggle to understand themselves and their relationship to God. With exposure to these ideas, students can better form and defend their own understanding of these critical issues.

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So apparently A Bridge to Light is given on a similar basis in which Morals and Dogma was always given: every Mason going through the SR gets one, but nobody reads it.

Do the math pastor, that's ONE THIRD of ALL Masons in the U.S. And, it doesn't even include those of Prince Hall Affilliation, where I was a former Scottish Rite 32nd Degree Mason. But, if you think a half a million men is a "pitifully small" number I see now why you majored in English instead of Math.

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Nice try, but that wasn’t what I asked you, and you know it. You fool only yourself with this attempted obfuscation. The only way your answer could possibly be correct would be if I had asked you “how many Masons are in Scottish Rite?” But “Scottish Rite” does not recommend Morals and Dogma, they are not the ones you said “highly regard” it, you stated that the SUPREME COUNCIL RECOMMENDS IT. In return, I asked you to tell the readers exactly how many Masons are actually ON the Supreme Council; in other words, how many people does this council represent, because THAT is the number of Masons who are “highly regarding” this book. No wonder you didn’t last long, when you think a third of all Masons in the U.S. are on the Supreme Council—which I’m sure you KNOW is what was meant by the question.

Since you don’t seem to know the answer to the question, or don’t wish the readers to know the answer, I will post the information, and since you seem to value it this way, “I'll let the Supreme Council answer the question for you”:

The Scottish Rite is governed by a Supreme Council in each Jurisdiction, just as Symbolic Masonry is governed by a Grand Lodge in each Jurisdiction. But the composition of a Supreme Council and a Grand Lodge is wholly different. The Grand Lodge consists of the Masters and Wardens of Blue Lodges, and certain permanent members (Past GrandMasters, Grand Officers, in some Grand Jurisdictions Past Masters,etc.), Supreme Councils in this country are limited to thirty-three Active Members (Southern Jurisdiction). Sixty-six Active Members (Northern Jurisdiction). These Active Members (All having previously attained the 33 degree) are elected by their fellows and for life. In the Southern Jurisdiction the officers of the Supreme Council are elected for life; in the Northern Supreme Council, for three years, but the principal officers are almost invariably reelected, so that tenure is usually for life.

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The information can be found in a number of sources, this particular link is here: http://www.dallasscottishrite.org/history/


But there is an even MORE pertinent question than that one: If Morals and Dogma is so “highly regarded” by the Supreme Council:

Then why the heck did they stop giving it to new members over 30 years ago, and switch to A Bridge to Light??? Don’t look now, but there’s a leak in your magic bubble.

So don't pretend Blue Lodge members would be oblivious to their Scottish or York Rite status. You know very well that Blue Lodge Masons are strongly encouraged to pursue the higher degrees. That's why YOU are currently pursuing status as a York Rite Mason. By your own words, this makes you one of the minority, rather than one of "most Masons." So quit acting as though the higher degrees are so disjointed from the lower ones.

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All I have to say to that one is, since you seem to think I can take your word on all of this, I think I’ll go over to the nearest Scottish Rite meeting I can find, the next time they have a meeting scheduled, and join in with these fellows who are “not so disjointed from the lower degrees.” You know exactly what will happen, don’t you? I’m sure I wouldn’t exactly be tossed out on my ear, but I would be told in no uncertain terms that I would not be allowed to stay. It would be the same in the Blue Lodge if an Entered Apprentice tried to come and sit in on a meeting opening on the Master Mason degree. He would be asked to leave, because he has not yet had that degree conferred upon him. I have not had any Scottish Rite degree conferred upon me, and I could not go to any Scottish Rite meeting. Why? Because not having gone through any Scottish Rite degree, NONE OF IT APPLIES TO ME AT ALL. You really need a reality check here.

Also: Since you say the “higher degrees” are not disjointed from the “lower” ones, and seem to be implying that what goes for the “higher” degrees goes also for the “lower” ones, let’s have it YOUR way. By your own admission, I then have every right to insist upon anything of my choosing from the York Rite (since that’s exactly what you are doing, picking and choosing what you wish from Scottish Rite and insisting it applies to ME), then I choose the requirement of an active Christian faith that is required for the “upper” degrees of York Rite, and I choose to make it the central point that shall define what Masonry is for ALL Masons, in the same fashion in which you try to make Scottish Rite apply to me. How does that grab you?

And if you try to dispute what I just said, perhaps you need to look in the mirror and argue with the man you see there, because it is YOUR premise upon which I made the statement.

The better question would be how can a Christian, especially a pastor, who is a member of the Body of Christ, participate in the basic part of the Masonic structure knowing the paganism and heresy taught in one of the other parts of the whole Masonic body?

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I found nothing that conflicts with my Christian faith in the Blue Degrees, just as I was informed I would not. I find nothing that conflicts with my Christian faith in York Rite, and in fact, before I could begin the degrees, I had to sign a petition which required profession of Christian faith. The lessons in the degrees are directly from the New Testament, and I have found much of what is there informative and helpful in seeing some of the biblical lessons from a fresh perspective.

As for Scottish Rite, I have never joined that body, so it is a spurious claim on your part to try to apply anything you find there to me. If you found it not to your liking and/or fitting the description you just gave, you were correct to leave it. If I were ever to join it and that was what I found there, I would leave it as well. But that is irrelevant to the current discussion, since I have not joined and none of it applies to me.

Pastor, you need to get real and stop all the falsehood and misleading.

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I’ve been trying for about five years now to stop the falsehood. We’ve managed to head a lot of it off—in particular, things like the Taxil hoax and the inane claims about a “Masonic dollar” have been pushed to the rear, where there are fewer critics who are willing to accrue the dirt to themselves that such a move requires—but these antimasons keep insisting on rehashing all the old refuted arguments. They don’t seem to pay attention when evidence is presented to them.

Your current level of attack isn’t helping them much, either. In fact, it seems to me that in the last few years, they’ve been more prone to distance themselves from you, which makes them a bit brighter than I had given them credit for being.

O.F.F. said:

You are correct regarding its parallel to the legend of Osiris

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As you are no doubt aware there is NO parallel with the Osiris legend - but why spoil a good argument with the truth.

Here is an example from the revered Albert Pike

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You might revere Pike and be impressed by the 'legendary' Mackay - most Masons find both boring and more often rather wide in there generalisations. Rather than concentrating on Pike how about doing some research into the mass of evidence put out by Quatuor Coronati which is the premier lodge of research - you might actually lean something of value.

The danger for Masons who claim to be Christians is that, as they study these ancient mysteries

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Actually, it seems you are one of the few 'interested' in these ancient mysteries. Most Masons are not - they rather enjoy the fellowship.

they are more apt to get interested in mysticism, the occult, and the study of ancient and modern world religions in "the quest to gain more light in Masonry," than in the truth of Christ and Christianity, by studying the Holy Bible and its commentaries instead.

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Again your sweeping generalisations are not the truth. There are, as you well know, a number of side degrees which focus on the Christian tradition - but again, why spoil a good argument with the glaring obvious.

[Of course, this assumes they had at least an ounce of genuine Christian faith to begin with.

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You have you opinions - you have made your choices - but you might also be wrong.

I'd like to know if anyone has noticed that the masonic tracing boards have an almost dream-like quality to them. Couple the rituals and legends and "levels" of symbolism with encouragement to "meditate" on the same for spiritual enlightenment & it makes me wonder....

It's almost like they are trying to influence people on a different level of consciousness....like a counterfeit type of the work of the Holy Spirit who speaks to us (believers) within.

Wayseer said:

As you are no doubt aware there is NO parallel with the Osiris legend - but why spoil a good argument with the truth.

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How true. And the primary reason for that is the same as the primary reason the obelisk claims are spurious: the claim is anachronistic.

One clearly traceable piece of Masonic history is the trail revealing work of the "Blue" Degrees. Before perhaps 1725 or so, there were only two degrees. This has been established by more than one historian, it is unassailable fact. So trying to prove a derivation of speculative Masonry from an imagined Egyptian origin, is a huge error of getting the cart before the horse. The Egyptians could not have represented that which did not even exist until several thousand years later.

Not that this information will change anything, the same thing will happen that always happens, they will simply shuffle the deck and re-deal the cards in hopes of re-framing the discussion sufficiently to get us off the refuted point and onto some tangent.

Rev Wayne said:

One clearly traceable piece of Masonic history is the trail revealing work of the "Blue" Degrees. Before perhaps 1725 or so, there were only two degrees. This has been established by more than one historian, it is unassailable fact.

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Quite so. The old Operative Masons only dealt in two degrees, the Entered Apprentice and the Fellow of the Craft. The Master of an Operative Lodge was in fact a Fellow of the Craft. The Dublin MS (1711) supports this thesis but in 1726 the Graham MS indicates that the Third Degree was know in some form. It was recorded in the minutes of the lodge (probably Speculative) which met at the Swan and Rummer in 1927 that mention is made of Master Masons. It was not until the 1730s that the 3rd became somewhat stardardised such ceremony focusing on the Hiramic Legend.

There is absolutely no credible evidence linking Freemasonry to any Egyptian practice or legend.

My own thoughts led me to believe that the Operative Masons at sometime during the Middle Ages established their working practices - building the catherdrals, castles etc - as symbolic of the ethics contained in the Bible. We have to remember that men without property were serfs and had to bear that burden while men of property did not work but had access to 'the things of God'. By making 'work' symbolic of God the Operative Masons created meaning for their otherwise impoverished lives. And this was purely Christian in character. It is this tradition, I believe, that is carried on in within present-day Lodges. It is my contension that both Pike and Mackay have failed to grasp this essential point.

Not that this information will change anything, the same thing will happen that always happens, they will simply shuffle the deck and re-deal the cards in hopes of re-framing the discussion sufficiently to get us off the refuted point and onto some tangent.

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Yes - unfortunately.

HisdaughterJen said:

I'd like to know if anyone has noticed that the masonic tracing boards have an almost dream-like quality to them.

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I understand that there are those who get quite excited over what they see as the esoteric nature of the Craft. I see the Tracing Board as a board of moral instruction.

It's almost like they are trying to influence people on a different level of consciousness....like a counterfeit type of the work of the Holy Spirit who speaks to us (believers) within.

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Well the HS does work in ways different to our own - your concept is not without merit.

Nice pic and all, but wasn't that an axehead in the story?

In answer to the OP, no, a Christian cannot join up with Antichristian groups, and Freemasons are satanic.

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I'm afraid your word isn't enough to make any accusation stick. On what do you base your conclusion? Something you read somebody else saying, or something you just heard all your life, or did you really, genuinely get it from anything Masonic?

Rev Wayne said:

Nice pic and all, but wasn't that an axehead in the story?

I'm afraid your word isn't enough to make any accusation stick. On what do you base your conclusion? Something you read somebody else saying, or something you just heard all your life, or did you really, genuinely get it from anything Masonic?

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The Holy Spirit tells me when I read of what masonry is about. I trust Him. It is His word that matters.

I just read this interesting article that explains all of the disinformation techniques we see being imployed by the Freemasons here, and that is what they are taught to do to keep us "profane" ones from exposing the truth about the craft and its fundamental satanic doctrine taught by its most revered leaders.

I found a few more interesting quotes on that site too:

"Not less than five or six times in the dreary monotony of this degree is the candidate given to understand that Christianity is a narrow, fanatical, intolerant system, while Masonry is a broad, comprehensive, generous one, and that if he is a good Mason he must not be a Christian."

President Charles A. Blanchard of Wheaton College

"The goal is no longer the destruction of the Church but rather to make use of it by infiltrating it."

Ecumenism pg. 64-65 , written by Freemason Bishop Graberin in 1908,

"THE MASONS FIRST FACE TO FACE ENCOUNTER WITH THE GOD OF THE LODGE, WITH LUCIFER, WITH EN SOPH, WILL TAKE PLACE IN THE THIRTIETH DEGREE"

Mackey's Scotch Rite Masonry Illustrated
"The Complete Ritual of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, Profusely Illustrated by a Sovereign Grand Commander, 33~"
Published by the Powner Company, Chicago Illinois

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"We shall unleash the Nihilists and Atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effects of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will be from that moment without compass, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view, a manifestation which will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."[/FONT]

Sovereign Grand Commander Albert Pike 33°
Letter to Italian Grand Master Guiseppie Mazzini 33°
15 August 1871
Archives British Museum, London

SealedEternal

I was watching something on God.tv just a few minutes ago and we were told that because of the work of a few people as intercessors and specialists in Freemasonry, there has been a significant reduction in the numbers of Freemasons and in New Zealand, they are closing lodges all over the place!

Hallelujah! God is freeing men and women from the diabolical!

SealedEternal said:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"We shall unleash the Nihilists and Atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effects of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will be from that moment without compass, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view, a manifestation which will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."[/FONT]

Sovereign Grand Commander Albert Pike 33°
Letter to Italian Grand Master Guiseppie Mazzini 33°
15 August 1871
Archives British Museum, London

SealedEternal

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C-R-E-E-P-Y

Do you know what this quote reminds me of?


Rev 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.



Mat 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.



It's almost like the plan of the devil is to kill and destroy believers BEFORE God's plan comes to fruition.

...sort of along the same lines as how King Harod destroyed male children up to age two at a certain time in order to attempt to thwart God's plans for Christ....only, this time, it's us who are given glorified bodies and enter into the Kingdom in heaven.