Calvinists/Reformed, Please help me explain TULIP.

roman2819 · Feb 5, 2019

Sound Doctrine said:
You think I conveniently choose certain Scriptures and not consider the rest? Of course we are to repent and to be converted. We cannot convert ourselves. "Except ye be converted and come unto me as a child, ye shall in no wise enter the kingdom of God." God does the conversion of those whom He has chosen from the foundation of the world, written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. There is no inkling of man's will leading us to salvation. I stand by that statement on the basis that although Jesus tells us to seek Him out, to be converted, none of us do. God says none seeks after Him, none doeth good, no, not one. We don't find or accept that which we don't seek. We are to worship God in spirit and in truth, and God seeketh such to worship Him. God does the seeking and causes us to approach unto Him and to walk in His commandments. This is what the Bible says. Man's will is against God, so who is going to come to Him of their own volition? No one. How is it we are then saved? By election (divine selection).

There is none who can do good to earn salvation to God's kingdom, the Scripture says, so God offers to redeem people who acknowledges their sinfulness and turned to Christ who had atoned for our sins. What we cannot earned from God is gifted to us if we confessed sins in Christ, that's what Scripture means in context. However, you infer that no one does good, so God had to choose who to save -- but there is no basis for this individual predestination in Scripture.

As for the meaning of God choose us before the foundation of the earth, I explained in the final portion of post #43 ... do read the final portion.. I started by saying that Ephesians 1,2,3 means God had predestined to offer redemption to both the Jews and Gentiles even before the foundation of earth. Paul said that to refute the Jews at that time who were upset that the Gentiles had access to Jehovah too. To defend their legacy the Jews said that God just decided suddenly to let the Gentiles in , that Gentiles weren't part of His plan initially . Such allegations were intended to put down the Gentiles who were despised by Jews, who also said Gentiles should be circumcised and observe Sabbath. To refute all these , Paul said God had really predestined to reach out to Gentiles very early on, as early as before foundation of earth -- it's not a sudden decision just because most of Israel did not turn to Christ. And certaibly did not mean that God choose which individuals to save before earth was formed.

Did Jesua ever said God chose individuals to be saved? If individual presentations was true, surely we wouls have observed such a trail of thoughts in His words or sermons.

Sound Doctrine · Feb 5, 2019

roman2819 said:
There is none who can do good to earn salvation to God's kingdom, the Scripture says, so God offers to redeem people who acknowledges their sinfulness and turned to Christ who had atoned for our sins. What we cannot earned from God is gifted to us if we confessed sins in Christ, that's what Scripture means in context. However, you infer that no one does good, so God had to choose who to save -- but there is no basis for this individual predestination in Scripture.

As for the meaning of God choose us before the foundation of the earth, I explained in the final portion of post #43 ... do read the final portion.. I started by saying that Ephesians 1,2,3 means God had predestined to offer redemption to both the Jews and Gentiles even before the foundation of earth. Paul said that to refute the Jews at that time who were upset that the Gentiles had access to Jehovah too. To defend their legacy the Jews said that God just decided suddenly to let the Gentiles in , that Gentiles weren't part of His plan initially . Such allegations were intended to put down the Gentiles who were despised by Jews, who also said Gentiles should be circumcised and observe Sabbath. To refute all these , Paul said God had really predestined to reach out to Gentiles very early on, as early as before foundation of earth -- it's not a sudden decision just because most of Israel did not turn to Christ. And certaibly did not mean that God choose which individuals to save before earth was formed.

Did Jesua ever said God chose individuals to be saved? If individual presentations was true, surely we wouls have observed such a trail of thoughts in His words or sermons.

You are adding commentary to Scripture. You are taking talking points from man's false doctrine, and not taking the Scriptures for what they actually say. 1 John 2:26-27 - "26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

Pay attention to what God says, not man.

roman2819 · Feb 5, 2019

Sound Doctrine said:
You are adding commentary to Scripture. You are taking talking points from man's false doctrine, and not taking the Scriptures for what they actually say. 1 John 2:26-27 - "26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

Pay attention to what God says, not man.

For your information, about a dozen or more people had rated my interpretation as winner or agreed in severa. We are all commenting on the Bible , the only question is whether one is interpreting within context or out of context. I quoted the key words of Ephesians , which you can read for yourself, if you really interested to see the truth.

Read Ephesians 1,2,3 for yourself. I highlight key words here: but you can verify them with a Bible.

Chapter 1:1-10: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God. To the Saints at Ephesus … < Who are the Saints? This is revealed in 2:11: “.you who are Gentiles”, Paul was writing to Gentile Christians at Ephesus,. He called them “saints” because after repentance, they were renounced holy in God's eyes. No more unclean, which the Jews used to think they were. Note that NIV version said “holy people” instead of Saints (ESV, NASB used “saints”).

[1:4-11] just as He [God] chose us in Him before the foundation of the world .. He predestined us ….. [11] In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. (12) in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...(13) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….<< who are the “us” and “we” ?

"We, who are first to hope in Christ" refer to Jews. Paul used the word "We" because he was a Jew writing to gentiles. Weren’t the Jews the first to be chosen by God as a nation or people? As the apostle referred to Gentiles, he said "you"

2:1-3:21: Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” ….. separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel. … (13) But now you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ..... (21) For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … (3:1 6) and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … (18) For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit… This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus …

Paul was trying to explain, that after Christ’s atonement, both Jews and Gentiles havd access to God if they repent and turn to Him. Notice the emphasis of two people become one to God, means no more segregation in Him.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

Regarding Romans 9:18-23: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth .... " The Jews were shocked that God offered redemption to Gentiles, Paul was saying that God could choose to have mercy on Gentiles. It does not mean that God choose individuals to be saved.

Everything wrapped up well when we interpreted 8n context. Don't understand why people refuse to see context and instead, try to believe in individual predestination , which feel like forcing a square peg into a round hole.

[/QUOTE]

Sound Doctrine · Feb 5, 2019

roman2819 said:
Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

Regarding Romans 9:18-23: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth .... " The Jews were shocked that God offered redemption to Gentiles, Paul was saying that God could choose to have mercy on Gentiles. It does not mean that God choose individuals to be saved.

Everything wrapped up well when we interpreted 8n context. Don't understand why people refuse to see context and instead, try to believe in individual predestination , which feel like forcing a square peg into a round hole.

People don't see your context because it isn't there. According to Revelation 13:8 and 17:8, those who are saved have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life, written from the foundation of the world. Those not in that book at that time are not to be saved. This is election. Also, Psalm 65:4a "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest and causest to approach unto thee:" God does the choosing and causes us to approach unto Him, and as Jesus points out, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and he that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." The Father gives to Jesus all that He shall give, and they are all saved. Man's will is not participating because it wouldn't "Our minds are enmity against God." If you want me to look up the quotes as to book, chapter, and verse, I will. Otherwise, any further discussion on this with you is probably wasting time. You can't read the Bible on your own (without man's interpretations from commentaries and preaching getting in the way) and deny election. I gave you 1 John 2:26-27 and you still put a commentary in my face!!! You have allowed false teachers to do your thinking for you and have denied the power of God.

roman2819 · Feb 5, 2019

Sound Doctrine said:
People don't see your context because it isn't there. According to Revelation 13:8 and 17:8, those who are saved have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life, written from the foundation of the world. Those not in that book at that time are not to be saved. This is election. Also, Psalm 65:4a "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest and causest to approach unto thee:" God does the choosing and causes us to approach unto Him, and as Jesus points out, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and he that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." The Father gives to Jesus all that He shall give, and they are all saved. Man's will is not participating because it wouldn't "Our minds are enmity against God." If you want me to look up the quotes as to book, chapter, and verse, I will. Otherwise, any further discussion on this with you is probably wasting time. You can't read the Bible on your own (without man's interpretations from commentaries and preaching getting in the way) and deny election. I gave you 1 John 2:26-27 and you still put a commentary in my face!!! You have allowed false teachers to do your thinking for you and have denied the power of God.

Aren't you using Calvin's interpretation and comments, even as you insist that one should not use man's interpretation? You have posted many comments based on Calvin's TULIP in this thread.

Regarding the word "God .choose" you probably wouldn't understand that it is a humble way of writing/speaking during biblical time, not only for Christians and Jews, but also among Eastern orthodox religions. They don't y say that they choose to believe God, because it would sound arrogant to them, as if they were putting themselves above God. Instead they humbly said that He choose them, meaning it is such a privilege to believe in Him.

An analogy: Christians say grace and thank God for providing their meals, but non-believers ask does God literally provide for, us? . Evidently they cannot appreciate words said in the spirit of thankfulness.

You can quote 20 verses with the word choose and foundation of earth without seeing context, but the Bible contains more than 20000 verses asking people to repent. Eg: Acts 3:17, the people asked "What must we do?" and Peter said you must repent.

Sound Doctrine · Feb 6, 2019

roman2819 said:
Aren't you using Calvin's interpretation and comments, even as you insist that one should not use man's interpretation? You have posted many comments based on Calvin's TULIP in this thread.

Regarding the word "God .choose" you probably wouldn't understand that it is a humble way of writing/speaking during biblical time, not only for Christians and Jews, but also among Eastern orthodox religions. They don't y say that they choose to believe God, because it would sound arrogant to them, as if they were putting themselves above God. Instead they humbly said that He choose them, meaning it is such a privilege to believe in Him.

An analogy: Christians say grace and thank God for providing their meals, but non-believers ask does God literally provide for, us? . Evidently they cannot appreciate words said in the spirit of thankfulness.

You can quote 20 verses with the word choose and foundation of earth without seeing context, but the Bible contains more than 20000 verses asking people to repent. Eg: Acts 3:17, the people asked "What must we do?" and Peter said you must repent.

You have no Biblical argument, you just want to argue. Your view on election, free will is wrong because it comes from man, not God.

roman2819 · Feb 6, 2019

Sound Doctrine said:
You have no Biblical argument, you just want to argue. Your view on election, free will is wrong because it comes from man, not God.

If it is not for Calvin (or people misinterpreting this man's writing) , you wouldn't have got it so wrong.

Sound Doctrine · Feb 7, 2019

roman2819 said:
If it is not for Calvin (or people misinterpreting this man's writing) , you wouldn't have got it so wrong.

I've never read Calvin or any other commentaries about election, free will. What I told you came from the Bible. If Calvin agreed with these things, then he believed the Bible also. You, apparently don't, or you would believe the Scriptures and stop with the excuses about context, etc.

Legroom · Feb 13, 2019

jason_delisle said:
Greetings,

I first wanted to say upfront that I am not reformed however I have a friend who is expressing his disagreement (rather strongly) to 5 Point Calvinism (TULIP). I would prefer not have this turn into another Calvinism/Arminianism debate. Rather, I want to make sure that I am showing respect towards Reformed Denominations and the Christians who follow 5 Point Calvinism by ensuring that I am communicating what the doctrines actually mean as opposed to what many have been told to believe about them. I have read 'The Institutes' by Calvin and numerous other Reformed resources. So I feel like I have a fairly decent grasp on the topic. However, I would like to be able to break it down as simply as possible as if I was talking to a child. I will provide and example from my understanding. If you could please add, modify, delete or correct to help me be accurate and not spread inaccurate information. That would be very appreciative.

Total Depravity: It means everything about our being has been stained or corrupted by sin.

It doesn't mean we are "No Good". Rather, it means nothing about us is perfect so we have nothing worthy enough to offer God in return for our salvation. Salvation is through His grace alone. Further more, we have a will, however, it isn't free. Rather it is a slave to sin. We are dead to sin. Thus, to suggest that we can choose to be saved is like saying a prisoner can choose to walk out of their cell or a corpse can choose to come back to life. Only through God's grace is it possible to come to salvation.

Unconditional Election: God chooses His elect solely by His sovereign will. There are absolutely no conditions that are placed on us that will dictate whether or not God elects us. Thus, we cannot earn election nor can we loose election as a result of any actions on our part.

Limited Atonement: Although Christ died for everyone and the Atonement was offered universally, it is limited in application. It doesn't mean Christ died for only the elect. He died for all, but only the elect will have the atonement applied to their sins at the moment of justification.

Irresistible Grace: When God begins his work on his elect, it is impossible to turn away from it. Like a fly drawn to a flytrap, accepting the grace is inevitable.

Perseverance/Preservation of the Elect: Going back to the fly trap analogy. If Irresistible Grace is a fly drawn to a trap, Perseverance of the elect is a fly caught in the trap. Once are hearts are transformed by the renewing of the spirit, it is impossible to turn away from it. Theoretically we could choose to turn away from God. However, it would be actually impossible. As a result, the elect will persevere till the end. The elect will 'finish the race'.

Once again, I know these are very rudimentary explanations and much detail has been left out. But I am merely trying to communicate the basics to bring clarification and understanding of what TULIP actually means to address the misconceptions many people have. Thank you.

The problem is largely one of over-analysis paralysis. God is our heavenly Father, children of God can take salvation for granted. We don't need to spend endless hours psychoanalyzing God. We don't need to create a whole new Sanhedrin with all sorts doctrinal subcategories.

Be grateful, forget yourself and go do something for someone else today.

Not David · Feb 23, 2019

OSAS is a concept developed 1500 after Christ, and they say stuff like veneration of the Saints is an "innovation".

Major1 · Feb 23, 2019

David Cabrera said:
OSAS is a concept developed 1500 after Christ, and they say stuff like veneration of the Saints is an "innovation".

Not so my friend. OSAS is a doctrine given to us by God Himself when the Lord Jesus said in John 6:37-40...…...…….
‘All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.’

John 10:28...…….
"and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.’

So to say that a truly born again believer can lose his salvation is equivalent to saying that Jesus has lost one of those that God has given him and thus has failed in completing the will of God! No No No No, No! A believer’s salvation is secure because it is Jesus who keeps them safe and loses none!

HOw can anyone believe that Jesus the God-Man is good enough to save us but is NOT GOOD and powerful enough to keep us saved.???????

Major1 · Feb 24, 2019

BobRyan said:
Then maybe you should actually read the texts before posting.

You are going to have to come up with some new material Bob. This one is getting real, real old and means nothing.

Major1 · Feb 24, 2019

BobRyan said:
Calvinism does not survive these texts --

-- forgiveness revoked --

Matthew 18
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand only by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

You cannot fall away from something such that you cannot be "renewed again" to it -- if you never had it to start with.

Heb 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

(Which is the saved condition -- not the state of the lost)

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Amen

Well as it turns out - that is not what I am thinking.

Here is what I am thinking you should be responding to a few of the texts above -- texts that 4 and 5 pt Calvinism does not survive as it turns out.

Rom 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.

Gal 6: 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning

Rom 6: 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

1 Cor 9
23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Rom 2:13-16 says that many who have no access to scripture at all - will be there. And the chapter ends by saying that many who do have access to scripture will not.

how do you think that helps them? Why do you think that those who do not agree with the false doctrine of OSAS don't have assurance right at this minute.

Hint. "The Arminian can know that he is saved - right-at-this-minute, but cannot know that he will continue to choose salvation 20 years from today..... the 3 and 5 point Calvinist cannot even know that".

The reason being that 3 and 5 point Calvinism "retro-deletes" today's assurance once it can be shown that 20 years from today "you fail to persevere".

===============

Perhaps when I reference and quote Matt 18 - you would consider reading that scripture before you post in response to it.

The irrefutable points made in those scriptures do not "vanish" simply because you find them inconvenient. I think we all knew that.

Interesting "wish" on your part. You know of course that in order to move it beyond a "wish" you must actually look at those texts and show your view to be correct. You have free will of course and are free to wish whatever you like. I am not going to debate against that freedom that you have.

Substance is always welcome - the rest gets ignored.

No doubt that not every member in every congregation in the world is born-again. But it is the "details" in the actual texts in my post that are refuting the extreme inference that Calvinism needs to eisegete into some texts - that needs to be addressed for it to survive "Sola Scriptura" review.

And speaking of 7th Day Adventism, Sabbatarianism is at the least a form of legalism and at most a denial of salvation by grace.

Any doctrine that denies salvation by grace alone by teaching that eternal life is merited, earned, conditioned, or maintained through human effort, religious ritual, financial donations, obedience to laws/commandments, church membership, and/or moral behavior is a false religion and is not grounded in the Word of God.

There is no such thing in the Scriptures as an "Investigative Judgment". The doctrine teaches that in the Holy of Holies in the Heavenly Sanctuary Christ is now conducting an investigation into the lives of all who have ever professed belief in Christ. He is judging all their works, by the standard of Gods Law. All those whose lives fail to measure up to the standard of the Law are rejected and condemned as not having true faith. Those whose lives meet that standard and thus manifest the perfect character and righteousness of Christ are recognized as having true faith, and so their sins are “blotted out.”

As was stated by the 7th Day Adventist, Christ did not appear in 1844. After this “Great Disappointment,” one “little flock” still insisted the date of their original predictions had been correct. They decided the event marked by 1844 was not the Second Coming, but the entrance of Christ into the Holy of Holies in the Heavenly Sanctuary. There, they said, He began the “Investigative Judgement.” This doctrine was received and endorsed by Ellen G. White (Ibid., p. 680).

SDA teachings most clearly contrary to the gospel and unorthodox in nature are its insistence on water baptism as an essential prerequisite to salvation.

In one of her most revered works, Ellen White wrote that Sabbath observance would be the “line of distinction” in the “final test” that will separate Gods end-time people who “receive the seal of God” and are saved, from those who “receive the mark of the beast” (The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan, p. 605).

The Mark of the Beast IS NOT and can not be observance of Sunday worship.

The soul-sleep doctrine conflicts with the gospel because, closely examined and fully understood, it actually constitutes a denial of the resurrection (though it is doubtful any SDA understands it to be so).

The annihilation doctrine taught by the 7th Day is definitely aberrant from the teaching of the Bible. It leaves the sinner facing no eternal consequences for his sin; angst over annihilation will not survive annihilation.

I am NOT a Calvinist but I am instead a born again believer and I believe the Bible and not what men say..

YOU are welcome to believe the doctrines of men over the Word of God but everyone can easily see that 7th Day Adventism does not pass Bible teachings.

Major1 · Feb 24, 2019

BobRyan said:
Calvinism does not survive these texts --

-- forgiveness revoked --

Matthew 18
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand only by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

You cannot fall away from something such that you cannot be "renewed again" to it -- if you never had it to start with.

Heb 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

(Which is the saved condition -- not the state of the lost)

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Amen

Well as it turns out - that is not what I am thinking.

Here is what I am thinking you should be responding to a few of the texts above -- texts that 4 and 5 pt Calvinism does not survive as it turns out.

Rom 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.

Gal 6: 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning

Rom 6: 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

1 Cor 9
23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Rom 2:13-16 says that many who have no access to scripture at all - will be there. And the chapter ends by saying that many who do have access to scripture will not.

how do you think that helps them? Why do you think that those who do not agree with the false doctrine of OSAS don't have assurance right at this minute.

Hint. "The Arminian can know that he is saved - right-at-this-minute, but cannot know that he will continue to choose salvation 20 years from today..... the 3 and 5 point Calvinist cannot even know that".

The reason being that 3 and 5 point Calvinism "retro-deletes" today's assurance once it can be shown that 20 years from today "you fail to persevere".

===============

Perhaps when I reference and quote Matt 18 - you would consider reading that scripture before you post in response to it.

The irrefutable points made in those scriptures do not "vanish" simply because you find them inconvenient. I think we all knew that.

Interesting "wish" on your part. You know of course that in order to move it beyond a "wish" you must actually look at those texts and show your view to be correct. You have free will of course and are free to wish whatever you like. I am not going to debate against that freedom that you have.

Substance is always welcome - the rest gets ignored.

No doubt that not every member in every congregation in the world is born-again. But it is the "details" in the actual texts in my post that are refuting the extreme inference that Calvinism needs to eisegete into some texts - that needs to be addressed for it to survive "Sola Scriptura" review.

I said...…..…………..
Major1 said: ↑
John 10:27...…….
‘My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.’

This whole discussion about eternal security is only directed towards those that have been born again. In this passage, Jesus calls them his ‘sheep’. He says that he knows them, and they in turn follow him.

YOU then said...………………...
So then it would be wise for you to consider the fact that there are a lot of people out there that profess to be Christians who are not.

No doubt that not every member in every congregation in the world is born-again. But it is the "details" in the actual texts in my post that are refuting the extreme inference that Calvinism needs to eisegete into some texts - that needs to be addressed for it to survive "Sola Scriptura" review.

YOU are very-very correct. I will go a step further. NOT everyone on this web site is born again.

Billy Graham once said that he believed that only 25% of any church congregation was truly born again and I for think that is a high number.

However, that has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura is a biblical doctrine not because the Bible says so. That would be a tautology- the kind of argument we find in that collection of lies the Book of Mormon. Instead the Bible is our alone final authority because it alone is the Word of God.

It has been attested, authenticated, by God Himself. Miracles serve as the divine imprimatur, the proof that this is a message of God. This is how Nicodemus reasoned when he said in John 3:2...……
“Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him”.

This is also how Jesus Himself reasoned when He first forgave the sins of the paralytic lowered through the roof. In response to the unspoken charge that He had blasphemed, Jesus told the man in Matthew 9:1-8.....
“Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house”.

Major1 · Feb 25, 2019

James Murphy said:
Isn't it like the Judaizers that Paul was writing against?

YES!

Who were these opponents of Paul?

The traditional answer to the identity of the opponents of Paul is that they are Jewish Christians that desire to impose the law on Gentile converts – Judaizers.

As you can see from some of those who post on this web site, they are still with us!

Major1 · Feb 25, 2019

His student said:
Yours too.

Maybe you should send one of them ahead to the Lord in case you sleep through that investigative judgment of yours.

Now that is really funny...….

Concord1968 · Feb 25, 2019

You know, on other websites, when someone posts the same copy and paste stuff over and over and over again, it's usually considered spam.

Major1 · Feb 25, 2019

BobRyan said:
Sadly your out-on-a-limb opposition to the Ten Commandments is refuted even by your own Bible scholars in the classic Sunday vs Bible Sabbath debate -- even THEY admit that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are binding on Christians to this very day.

Were we simply suppose to re-imagine it as "only Seventh-day Adventists know that much about the NEW Covenant and the TEN Commandments"??

Please be serious

Bob.....I have seen your posts all over the internet on forum conversations. YOU seem to never vary your attack and methods.

You really do need some new material.

Just to p[rove that, I did not say anything about not keeping the 10 commandments. That is however exactly how you operate. YOU say things and place words into the mouth of those who disagree with your 7th day theology in tiring to make them look less Biblical so as to make you appear MORE Biblical.

I will again say to you that YOUR opinion that we as humans, lost and wicked, depraved and destined for hell MUST KEEP THE 10 COMMANDMENTS TO BE OR TO STAY SAVED is not Biblical in any what whatsoever. That is a false teaching of the 7th Religion.

Listen carefully now...…..We as Christians should try to obey the Laws of God because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God in us. The truth however is that we can not keep the law and the Law was never given to save man to begin with.

So how can keeping the Law save us when it was never given to do that in the first place. IT CAN NOT!

Major1 · Feb 25, 2019

James Murphy said:
You know, on other websites, when someone posts the same copy and paste stuff over and over and over again, it's usually considered spam.

And on ALL the websites I know of, the copy and pasting of copywrited material is a reason for removal from that site.

FireDragon76 · Feb 25, 2019

The "5 points of Calvinism" are not a exhaustive, or even accurate, approach to Reformed theology. They seem to be utilized moreso by so-called "Reformed" Baptists as polemic, and less so by confessionally Reformed churches, such as Presbyterians.

Calvinists/Reformed, Please help me explain TULIP.

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