Calvinist, Not Fatalist

jimmyjimmy · Jan 29, 2015

Just as it is very easy for Arminians to assume and overreach on "freewill", Calvinists can, and often do, become fatalists. It's what puts the "frozen" in the "frozen chosen", at times.

There is a tension that must be maintained in order to stay true to the scriptures. If I'm honest, it's not an easy tightrope to walk for me. Not being able to live in the tension of God's sovereignty and mans responsibility, I've vacillated between the two more than I have held the balance. I know that God is sovereign over all his creation, no matter what I do, yet, my prayers can "move mountains".

If I lean toward the position that my actions have more power and influence than they actually do, I can also become frozen - frozen with fear. If I thought that my witness, for example, had the power to save a soul, I would never open my mouth in proclamation of the gospel for fear of doing it wrong, and damning the poor soul I hoped to rescue, but, on the other had, if I imagine that my deeds have no influence on the course of things, if I think that my witness has NO influence in the rescue of a soul, I will also freeze, but I'll freeze in slumber and sloth. The same goes for prayer. If I think that my prayers twist God's arm, and can alter the course of history greatly, then that is too great a burden for me to know how or what to pray, but if I see my prayers as futile because God has predetermined everything anyway, then I will not petition him. What would be the point, I feel.

Two questions for you:

1) How have you failed to maintain this balance?

2) How would you help a person avoid these two pitfalls?

BryanW92 · Jan 30, 2015

I was a better Chrsitian when I was Arminian. I wasn't some hyper-Arminian who thought that everything was my own doing. I was always Calvinist enough to understand that God did the heavy lifting for me, so I was never frozen with fear.

But, I do understand the concept of the "chosen frozen" now. Nobody ever challenges me to be more than I currently am in my new church. So, I am what I am. God put me here for a reason. Perhaps one day, that reason will be revealed. Until then, I wait.

hedrick · Jan 30, 2015

BryanW92 said:
I was a better Chrsitian when I was Arminian. I wasn't some hyper-Arminian who thought that everything was my own doing. I was always Calvinist enough to understand that God did the heavy lifting for me, so I was never frozen with fear.

But, I do understand the concept of the "chosen frozen" now. Nobody ever challenges me to be more than I currently am in my new church. So, I am what I am. God put me here for a reason. Perhaps one day, that reason will be revealed. Until then, I wait.

Reformed churches are ultimately responsible to Scripture. Doctrine is fine as a protection against misunderstanding, but I’d like to suggest that you Jesus’ teaching for your inspiration. I think it’s hard to read the Gospels without being challenged. You may not currently know where your whole life is headed. Some level of waiting and trust is fine. But there are plenty of challenges in obeying Christ where you are now.

Historically, Calvinists have not been “frozen.” The idea that God is in charge has normally inspired them to be part of his Kingdom, both in spreading the Gospel and in bringing God’s will to be done on earth.

A New Dawn · Jan 30, 2015

I think it is true that I was a better Christian when I was Arminian, too, but I don't know if that was because I was doing things out of a guilty conscience or because I actually wanted to do them. I know I did so many things I was putting the quality of my service to the test, but I felt if things needed to be done and no one was stepping up to do them, I felt I needed to. At the same time I was a Sunday School teacher, a young adult leader, a worship commissioner, in charge of pot lucks, and on the outreach team. All that with my regular life to lead. I also know I cried out in my prayers to God asking if I was doing enough for Him. When I left that church, I sat in the back of the new church for 6 years before making a commitment. Since I have become a Calvinist, and know that it is by grace we are saved, I have cut my commitment back dramatically, but I think, basically, I am still the same person. I help out my friends and community before I am even asked, and I am more involved in the community (rather than focusing only on church). And I still go back to the old church and help them with some outreach projects. I think I have reach a fair balance.

BryanW92 · Jan 30, 2015

A New Dawn said:
I think it is true that I was a better Christian when I was Arminian, too, but I don't know if that was because I was doing things out of a guilty conscience or because I actually wanted to do them. I know I did so many things I was putting the quality of my service to the test, but I felt if things needed to be done and no one was stepping up to do them, I felt I needed to. At the same time I was a Sunday School teacher, a young adult leader, a worship commissioner, in charge of pot lucks, and on the outreach team. All that with my regular life to lead. I also know I cried out in my prayers to God asking if I was doing enough for Him. When I left that church, I sat in the back of the new church for 6 years before making a commitment. Since I have become a Calvinist, and know that it is by grace we are saved, I have cut my commitment back dramatically, but I think, basically, I am still the same person. I help out my friends and community before I am even asked, and I am more involved in the community (rather than focusing only on church). And I still go back to the old church and help them with some outreach projects. I think I have reach a fair balance.

My experience was similar. Church Council Chairman, Lay Delegate, Certified Lay Speaker, Sunday school teacher, small group leader, bible study leader, etc. I did all these things at the same time and barely had time for a secular life.

But, now I'm prevented from doing these things because I am not an Elder and, frankly, its very relaxing. I may not be working "for the Kingdom" as much, but I certainly "have life and have it abundantly". My wife jumped in and is involved in a bunch of stuff at the new church so she's as busy as she was when we were Methodists--but she doesn't believe in Calvinism.

BryanW92 · Jan 30, 2015

hedrick said:
Reformed churches are ultimately responsible to Scripture. Doctrine is fine as a protection against misunderstanding, but Id like to suggest that you Jesus teaching for your inspiration. I think its hard to read the Gospels without being challenged. You may not currently know where your whole life is headed. Some level of waiting and trust is fine. But there are plenty of challenges in obeying Christ where you are now.

I'll probably get restless one day and start seeking challenges again. But, when I left the Methodist church and walked away from all those responsibilities, I learned the valuable lesson of knowning how to say "no" and not feeling like I crucified Christ again. He has the power to convict me to start doing things again when he wants me to.

Calvinist Dark Lord · Jan 30, 2015

A New Dawn said:
I think it is true that I was a better Christian when I was Arminian, too, but I don't know if that was because I was doing things out of a guilty conscience or because I actually wanted to do them. I know I did so many things I was putting the quality of my service to the test, but I felt if things needed to be done and no one was stepping up to do them, I felt I needed to. At the same time I was a Sunday School teacher, a young adult leader, a worship commissioner, in charge of pot lucks, and on the outreach team. All that with my regular life to lead. I also know I cried out in my prayers to God asking if I was doing enough for Him. When I left that church, I sat in the back of the new church for 6 years before making a commitment. Since I have become a Calvinist, and know that it is by grace we are saved, I have cut my commitment back dramatically, but I think, basically, I am still the same person. I help out my friends and community before I am even asked, and I am more involved in the community (rather than focusing only on church). And I still go back to the old church and help them with some outreach projects. I think I have reach a fair balance.

i wasn't a better Christian. Perhaps i might have appeared to be a better Christian, but the fact of the matter is that i was trying to finish by works what was begun and maintained by grace.

It lead to innumerable difficulties.

BryanW92 · Jan 30, 2015

Calvinist Dark Lord said:
i wasn't a better Christian. Perhaps i might have appeared to be a better Christian, but the fact of the matter is that i was trying to finish by works what was begun and maintained by grace.

It lead to innumerable difficulties.

Yes. "Better" was bad choice of words. The better choice is more active, more useful, and exhausted: faith WITH works.

abacabb3 · Jan 30, 2015

I am a far better Christian as a self-aware Calvinist than an ignorant didn't even know what an Arminian was. I think it is simply because as God has enlightened me, He has also willed me to walk more like Christ. I can't help but feel that I am completely at His mercy and the more I see my own wickedness, the more grateful I am. The more grateful I am, the more motivated I am to do good works.

Good works and Calvinism fits like a glove to me. Eph 2:8-10.

gord44 · Jan 30, 2015

BryanW92 said:
Yes. "Better" was bad choice of words. The better choice is more active, more useful, and exhausted: faith WITH works.

Oddly enough those words you used to describe it instead of 'better', make it sound better. More active, what's wrong with that? More useful, is that a bad thing? Exhausted, shouldn't a Christian be exhausted in his journey at times?

BryanW92 · Jan 30, 2015

gordRedeemed said:
Oddly enough those words you used to describe it instead of 'better', make it sound better. More active, what's wrong with that? More useful, is that a bad thing? Exhausted, shouldn't a Christian be exhausted in his journey at times?

Not at all. Better implies that some Christians are somehow more excellent or more efficient than others. You either are, or you aren't. There is no "better".

So, the use of more this and more that is just to imply that I did more stuff than I do now. It doesn't mean that I was better than I am now, just more busy.

As far as being exhausted? I can get exhausted from work, from play, and from church. Nothing wrong with being exhausted. But, if you don't have to be, then why seek such a thing? When I was Methodist, the clergy were constantly telling us to work until we drop to create the Kingdom. There's always another job to do, class to teach, mouth to feed, etc. You see, they believe that you can lose salvation and they are quick to remind you that salvation does not come from works, but that works are endless and necessary.

A New Dawn · Jan 30, 2015

gordRedeemed said:
Oddly enough those words you used to describe it instead of 'better', make it sound better. More active, what's wrong with that? More useful, is that a bad thing? Exhausted, shouldn't a Christian be exhausted in his journey at times?

Nothing is wrong with being more active, unless your motive is wrong.

jimmyjimmy · Jan 31, 2015

Interesting posts so far.I find agreement with a few.

I was a much more active Chriastian before I was Reformed, But, at least some of the reason for that was that I was trying to perferct myself. It was the insecurity of my standing before God that motivated much of my activity, not the love of Christ. Fear and pride were the fuel; although, I only know that in hindsight. At the time, I was unaware of it.

My Christian life is also infinately better now. I have a stability that was absent before. The path is smooth were it was once a rollercoaster of hills. Dependent on performance, I used to be either on a high if I was doing well, or on a self-flagulating low if I wasn't. I would condemn myself if I didnt live up to my standards, and I would condemn others if they didn't. Back to the matter at hand.

Paul said that the grace of God fueled him to work! And, it caused him to work more than the rest! What am I missing, as a grace guy, that Paul had? His work was not fear-driven. It was gospel-driven.

My honest confession is that I've been a crummy example of a Christian lately. I should and could do much better, but fear of punishment will never take me where I need to go. I honestly believe that fatalism has caused me to stagnate. The pendulum swung from my Arminian, it's all up to me, to my Calvinist, it's all up to God. I must live in the reality of both God's sovereignty and my responsibility.

Holding that tension does not seem possible, if I'm honest. looking forward to more posts.

Inkfingers · Jan 31, 2015

thatbrian said:
If I think that my prayers twist God's arm, and can alter the course of history greatly, then that is too great a burden for me to know how or what to pray, but if I see my prayers as futile because God has predetermined everything anyway, then I will not petition him. What would be the point, I feel.

Two questions for you:

1) How have you failed to maintain this balance?

2) How would you help a person avoid these two pitfalls?

This is one of the best questions that I have ever seen on here....

The answer is that you will pray to God if He has preordained that you will. And you will not do so if He has not preordained it.

God is the narrator and author of a story. We are the characters and the audience.

Play the part He has given you, and do not fret that the story is already written, as we are both character and audience in a loving unity in Christ.

To misquote Luther.....this I speak, I could do not other.

abacabb3 · Jan 31, 2015

thatbrian said:
Holding that tension does not seem possible, if I'm honest. looking forward to more posts.

Hate to break it to you, if fear of losing our salvation or conviction that your own free will was working any righteous living in you, your are sadly mistaken. "Perfect love casts out fear" (1 John 4:18). You were never doing good works at all if your fear motivated you.

So, I deem it god that you have seen your faith "stagnate." God is revealing to you what your faith was all along. It's dead, lukewarm, not motivated a by true love for Him or gratitude.

Love does not seek reward or is compelled because of force. Every knee shall bow and tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Most of those confessing will be forced to in their humiliation and they will be thrown into the lake of fire. Sure, God's sheer power can compel them to say it, but His grace has not given them love and they are swept away.

Pray to God for a love for Him that is for His glory and not your own. Pray for a faith that leads you to do good works out of gratitude. "We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren" (1 John 3:16).

May God bless you with greater faith in Him. May God bless all of us in this. Apart from Him we can do nothing.

jimmyjimmy · Jan 31, 2015

Ù

abacabb3 said:
Hate to break it to you, if fear of losing our salvation or conviction that your own free will was working any righteous living in you, your are sadly mistaken. "Perfect love casts out fear" (1 John 4:18). You were never doing good works at all if your fear motivated you.

So, I deem it god that you have seen your faith "stagnate." God is revealing to you what your faith was all along. It's dead, lukewarm, not motivated a by true love for Him or gratitude.

Love does not seek reward or is compelled because of force. Every knee shall bow and tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Most of those confessing will be forced to in their humiliation and they will be thrown into the lake of fire. Sure, God's sheer power can compel them to say it, but His grace has not given them love and they are swept away.

Pray to God for a love for Him that is for His glory and not your own. Pray for a faith that leads you to do good works out of gratitude. "We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren" (1 John 3:16).

May God bless you with greater faith in Him. May God bless all of us in this. Apart from Him we can do nothing.

You are assuming incorrectly, abbacabb.

This issue is fatalism, not my faith or love. My point is that my overreaching on God's sovereignty has caused me to drop the ball on what I must do. I didn't stop obeying God because I lost the fear of punishment.

I've lost some umph from leaning to far toward God's sovereignty in my thinking and it's worked itself out in my life. Hoped that my first post explained better. Obviously not.

What I'm saying is that I've overemphasized one side of the God's sovereignty/ man's responsibility equation, and it has messed me up a bit. Not crashed me on the rocks, just a little off course. What I'm also saying and asking is that this balance seems very difficult to maintain as I dont know anyone who does.

BryanW92 · Jan 31, 2015

abacabb3 said:
So, I deem it god that you have seen your faith "stagnate." God is revealing to you what your faith was all along. It's dead, lukewarm, not motivated a by true love for Him or gratitude.

We believe that faith comes from God. So, the faith that was given to him by God was not good enough? He must work harder to grow that faith? What are you implying?

hedrick · Jan 31, 2015

Calvinists have always denied that Calvinism is the same thing as fatalism. According to Calvinism, people make decisions and they have consequences. Sure, God is in charge. But we dont know his plans, except to the extent that some general features have been revealed in Scripture. We can see his hand mostly in retrospect, and not always even then. So really, on a day to day basis, we still work out our salvation in fear and trembling, because our actions still have consequences. The actions and consequences are part of Gods plan, but theyre still real.

I dont think the question of motivation is really a doctrinal one. Some Arminians may live in a frenzy of activity because theyre not sure they are saved. But I dont think thats such a common situation. We should be able to have confidence in Gods promises whatever our theology, and justification by faith should reassure us that Gods love will stay with us even when we sin. The question of motivation is an issue for all Protestants, not just Calvinists.

Protestants have generally answered that repentance and faith produce changes in motivation, and that the kinds of things done by people because they care are a lot better than what is done by people in legalistic fear of damnation. I would note that its not like Jesus asked us to live a terrible life just to avoid hell. The Kingdom of God that he has called us to is the earthly foretaste of heaven. Loving other people and serving God is genuinely a better way to live. We can get by for a while not doing anything, but that becomes unsatisfying pretty quickly. I would guess that this posting is a sign that the OP is already unhappy with how hes living.

If you want motivation based on eternity, consider 1 Cor 3:12. Protestants dont teach purgatory. So Im not going to tell you that youre going to have to suffer torment for each sin you commit. But we do believe that people in eternal life are free from sin. 1 Cor 3:12 invites us to think about what that means. Its not just that you stop sinning. Its the any part of your life that was not based on Christ is gone. Do you really want to enter eternal life with most of what you are removed? Im afraid that some of us may end up as the lovable 6 year olds we were before things started going wrong. Jesus makes the same point in Mat 6:19.

BryanW92 · Jan 31, 2015

hedrick said:
I dont think the question of motivation is really a doctrinal one. Some Arminians may live in a frenzy of activity because theyre not sure they are saved. But I dont think thats such a common situation.

I agree with you. Most Arminians I know really do confidently believe that they are saved. It's their clergy who try to convince them otherwise (in the UMC at least). If you happen to say, "I am saved" in front of a Methodist pastor, most will correct you and tell you that you think you are saved, but that you need to operate on the assumption that you aren't.

If you press the issue, they will admit that you probably are saved, but that you must "work continuously to perfect your salvation".

How much more perfection can I really add to Jesus?

That's where they start talking in circles, finally stating that they do have a Masters degree from a seminary, so you should just believe them.

If you persist in thinking that you are irrevocably saved, they'll tell you that "most people in Methodist churches are really Baptists".

jimmyjimmy · Jan 31, 2015

hedrick said:
Calvinists have always denied that Calvinism is the same thing as fatalism. According to Calvinism, people make decisions and they have consequences. Sure, God is in charge. But we dont know his plans, except to the extent that some general features have been revealed in Scripture. We can see his hand mostly in retrospect, and not always even then. So really, on a day to day basis, we still work out our salvation in fear and trembling, because our actions still have consequences. The actions and consequences are part of Gods plan, but theyre still real.

I dont think the question of motivation is really a doctrinal one. Some Arminians may live in a frenzy of activity because theyre not sure they are saved. But I dont think thats such a common situation. We should be able to have confidence in Gods promises whatever our theology, and justification by faith should reassure us that Gods love will stay with us even when we sin. The question of motivation is an issue for all Protestants, not just Calvinists.

Protestants have generally answered that repentance and faith produce changes in motivation, and that the kinds of things done by people because they care are a lot better than what is done by people in legalistic fear of damnation. I would note that its not like Jesus asked us to live a terrible life just to avoid hell. The Kingdom of God that he has called us to is the earthly foretaste of heaven. Loving other people and serving God is genuinely a better way to live. We can get by for a while not doing anything, but that becomes unsatisfying pretty quickly. I would guess that this posting is a sign that the OP is already unhappy with how hes living.

If you want motivation based on eternity, consider 1 Cor 3:12. Protestants dont teach purgatory. So Im not going to tell you that youre going to have to suffer torment for each sin you commit. But we do believe that people in eternal life are free from sin. 1 Cor 3:12 invites us to think about what that means. Its not just that you stop sinning. Its the any part of your life that was not based on Christ is gone. Do you really want to enter eternal life with most of what you are removed? Im afraid that some of us may end up as the lovable 6 year olds we were before things started going wrong. Jesus makes the same point in Mat 6:19.

I fear my posting is being misunderstood, but, after rereading it just now, I'm at a loss to make it clearer.

Hendrick, I know that Calvinism is NOT fatalism, but some Calvinists are. There is a spectrum to all of these things. It's the balance that I'm after.

True, Arminians don't work for their salvation; however, many, if not most, try to perfect themselves in such a way, as Bryan has already stated. The Galatian's error is pervasive, and each sermon they hear only compounds the problem. Self-help is not the message of the gospel.

I wouldn't say I'm unhappy with how I'm living in the sense that I'm in the pigpen of the younger brother. That's not the case. I'm saying that I think I've swung from seeing my sanctification as being completely on my shoulders to seeing it as completely on God's. I struggle in actual life with vacillating between the two rather than holding the tension of God's sovereignty and my responsibility.

I would go so far as to say we all do. I think we all favor one side.

Calvinist, Not Fatalist

Pardoned Rebel

Hey look, it's a squirrel!

Senior Veteran

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Hey look, it's a squirrel!

Hey look, it's a squirrel!

Regular Member

Hey look, it's a squirrel!

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Hey look, it's a squirrel!

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Pardoned Rebel

Somebody's heretic

Newbie

Pardoned Rebel

Hey look, it's a squirrel!

Senior Veteran

Hey look, it's a squirrel!

Pardoned Rebel

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency