Calvinist explanation of Branches that were cut off

[Dave-W]

He was never saved,

Based on what?

did not have the Holy Spirit

If he did the works as listed in Mark 6, he had the "Spirit upon." Just not "Spirit within."

 

[Dave-W]

How did Judas preform miracles without the Holy Spirit?

The text says the 12 (which included Judas) did those works.

The difference between Spirit Within and Spirit Upon.

 

[98cwitr]

Can my fellow 5 pointers help explain to me, this passage:

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. John 15:2

A branch would need to be apart of the vine, would it not?

The Jews believed they were God's sworn people, no matter what they did. When Jesus came, He showed them that one must bear fruit in order to be a part of God's salvation. Let's follow the analogy for a second though: If a particular branch doesn't bear good fruit, but other branches of the same plant do bear good fruit then the branch itself must be damaged. In order for the plant to flourish, the unhealthy branches must be removed as not to rob nutrients from the plant's healthy branches. This analogy goes much further though with the concept of "grafting" (Romans 11). Grafting was for the Gentiles, who had yet to hear the good news and believe. Not only are bad branches removed, but healthy branches are grafted into the plant to make it even fuller than it even was originally.

 

[twin1954]

Can my fellow 5 pointers help explain to me, this passage:

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. John 15:2

A branch would need to be apart of the vine, would it not?

The Lord is speaking of the Jews and Gentiles. The branches that are cut off are the Jews who still abide in unbelief. The Gentiles, us, are the grafted into the vine. A parallel passage is Rom. 11:14-17

(Rom 11:13) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

(Rom 11:14) If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

(Rom 11:15) For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

(Rom 11:16) For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

(Rom 11:17) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The Lord Jesus always dealt with religious things never physical things. He dealt with eternity not temporary. We do the same when we preach the Gospel.

The ones broken off are the Jews as a people. They cling to their false religion but some will be saved and grafted in the same as us Gentiles.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

The Lord is speaking of the Jews and Gentiles. The branches that are cut off are the Jews who still abide in unbelief. The Gentiles, us, are the grafted into the vine. A parallel passage is Rom. 11:14-17

(Rom 11:13) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

(Rom 11:14) If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

(Rom 11:15) For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

(Rom 11:16) For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

(Rom 11:17) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The Lord Jesus always dealt with religious things never physical things. He dealt with eternity not temporary. We do the same when we preach the Gospel.

The ones broken off are the Jews as a people. They cling to their false religion but some will be saved and grafted in the same as us Gentiles.

There you are! I haven't seen you around in the forums for some time.

Thank you for your explanation,

Only question I have is, why would a non believer be apart of the vine to begin with? I am sure you get what I am saying.

A non believer without the Holy Spirit, shouldn't be part of the vine?

 

[ben24]

Would this apply, in this case?
Mathew 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Also, John 6
70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

 

[Geralt]

our UNION WITH CHRIST makes us TRUE believers. the fact that this 'branches' never were in union with christ, they are NOT believers-> the results of which they do NOT bear fruit.

if you start with the presumption that these branches are connected anyway (true believers) even without union with christ, you will end up with an arminian position.

if you start with Christ and Union with Him as the imperative point of the context, you will have no problem at all.

"apart from me you can do nothing" Jn15:5 sums it up.

 

[twin1954]

There you are! I haven't seen you around in the forums for some time.

Thank you for your explanation,

Only question I have is, why would a non believer be apart of the vine to begin with? I am sure you get what I am saying.

A non believer without the Holy Spirit, shouldn't be part of the vine?

The Lord Jesus was speaking metaphorically of the Jews who were supposed to be the people of God. It is just like John saying that He came unto His own but they received Him not.

The Lord Jesus was a Jew by birth. It is the same as when Paul in Eph. 2 speaks of the Gentiles being without God in the world being strangers to the covenant but now being made one new man by faith in Christ.

 

[twin1954]

I have been busy moving to Florida.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

our UNION WITH CHRIST makes us TRUE believers. the fact that this 'branches' never were in union with christ, they are NOT believers-> the results of which they do NOT bear fruit.

if you start with the presumption that these branches are connected anyway (true believers) even without union with christ, you will end up with an arminian position.

if you start with Christ and Union with Him as the imperative point of the context, you will have no problem at all.

"apart from me you can do nothing" Jn15:5 sums it up.

Thank you this helped me understand it!

Very clear and great post

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

our UNION WITH CHRIST makes us TRUE believers. the fact that this 'branches' never were in union with christ, they are NOT believers-> the results of which they do NOT bear fruit.

if you start with the presumption that these branches are connected anyway (true believers) even without union with christ, you will end up with an arminian position.

if you start with Christ and Union with Him as the imperative point of the context, you will have no problem at all.

"apart from me you can do nothing" Jn15:5 sums it up.

Further to your post, if one was to take the arminian position, that would mean you can lose your salvation

 

[Dave-W]

Further to your post, if one was to take the arminian position, that would mean you can lose your salvation

Correct. But since salvation is COVENANT, (specifically the New Covenant) it would have to be something akin to a divorce to break it.