Calvinist explanation of Branches that were cut off

[PrettyboyAndy]

Can my fellow 5 pointers help explain to me, this passage:

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. John 15:2

A branch would need to be apart of the vine, would it not?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

visible church apostates and false professors.

 

[brightlights]

Can my fellow 5 pointers help explain to me, this passage:

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. John 15:2

A branch would need to be apart of the vine, would it now?

This is where being a baptist won't help you. Once you become a Presbyterian this will all make sense.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

This is where being a baptist won't help you. Once you become a Presbyterian this will all make sense.

I'm open ears

 

[brightlights]

I'm open ears

It's basically as our brother said above. There are many who are attached to Christ, who are members of the visible church, yet who are not truly "alive" or "saved". God will prune them away.

This wouldn't usually square with the baptist conception of regenerate church membership - i.e. that only those who are regenerated and born again ought to be considered members of the church.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

It's basically as our brother said above. There are many who are attached to Christ, who are members of the visible church, yet who are not truly "alive" or "saved". God will prune them away.

This wouldn't usually square with the baptist conception of regenerate church membership - i.e. that only those who are regenerated and born again ought to be considered members of the church.

My question is more so of, wouldn't only believers be attached to the vine? So if only believers are apart of the vine, why would they be cut off?

 

[brightlights]

My question is more so of, wouldn't only believers be attached to the vine?

Nope.

So if only believers are apart of the vine, why would they be cut off?

Because believers are not the only people attached to the vine.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Nope.



Because believers are not the only people attached to the vine.

How can someone without the Holy Spirit be attached to the vine? Is this sort of like, depart from me, you never belonged to me?

 

[brightlights]

How can someone without the Holy Spirit be attached to the vine? Is this sort of like, depart from me, you never belonged to me?

Judas was attached to the vine, in a sense. Yet he was never spiritually alive.

Many unbelieving people are attached to Jesus. They are members of local churches, part of believing families, some of them even preach and teach. Yet their lives contain no spiritual fruit because they're not receiving the nourishment of the vine.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Judas was attached to the vine, in a sense. Yet he was never spiritually alive.

Many unbelieving people are attached to Jesus. They are members of local churches, part of believing families, some of them even preach and teach. Yet their lives contain no spiritual fruit because they're not receiving the nourishment of the vine.

Okay I guess that makes sense.

 

[brightlights]

Okay I guess that makes sense.

Welcome to reluctant presbyterianism.

 

[Dave-W]

Judas was attached to the vine, in a sense. Yet he was never spiritually alive.

that is writing something into scripture so that it fits your doctrine.
Never a good idea.

 

[Dave-W]

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. John 15:2

A branch would need to be apart of the vine, would it not?

Another scripture is this:

Romans 11.17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[brightlights]

that is writing something into scripture so that it fits your doctrine.
Never a good idea.

You think that Judas was truly saved? Or you think that Judas was never connected to Jesus in any way?

 

[brightlights]

My understanding of Judas is that:

1. He was never truly saved. We know this because he ultimately betrayed the Lord and fell away.
2. He was very closely connected to Jesus. He was one of the original twelve apostles.

 

[Dave-W]

You think that Judas was truly saved?

The scripture never directly addresses this so it is something we do not actually know.

Until the resurrection (after Judas' death) the Mosaic covenant was still in force. So whether he was "saved" or not is not by the rules of the New Covenant.

He was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. (none of the disciples were until John 20.22)

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

that is writing something into scripture so that it fits your doctrine.
Never a good idea.

talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

 

[Dave-W]

Or you think that Judas was never connected to Jesus in any way?

He was certainly connected, and as such had the same power and authority to heal the sick and cast out demons as any of the disciples.

Mark 6.7 And He summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits; 8 and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff—no bread, no bag, no money in their belt— 9 but to wear sandals; and He added, “Do not put on two tunics.” 10 And He said to them, “Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town. 11 Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them.” 12 They went out and preached that men should repent. 13 And they were casting out many demons and were anointing with oil many sick people and healing them.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

You think that Judas was truly saved? Or you think that Judas was never connected to Jesus in any way?

He was never saved, did not have the Holy Spirit

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

He was certainly connected, and as such had the same power and authority to heal the sick and cast out demons as any of the disciples.

Mark 6.7 And He summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits; 8 and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff—no bread, no bag, no money in their belt— 9 but to wear sandals; and He added, “Do not put on two tunics.” 10 And He said to them, “Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town. 11 Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them.” 12 They went out and preached that men should repent. 13 And they were casting out many demons and were anointing with oil many sick people and healing them.

How did Judas preform miracles without the Holy Spirit?