Calvinist Doctrines

[IHaveQuestions]

I post this not to stir trouble, but as a genuine query. I have read several threads on this forum where people have stated they are members of reformed churches, but have real problems with Calvinist Doctrines.

How many of you out there who belong (member or one who attends) to Reformed Churches have this problem, and with which aspects?

 

[rnmomof7]

I guess I wonder why anyone with major "problems "with Calvinism would attend a Reformed church or call themselves a Calvinist .

My Bible Presbyterian church does not require that members be Calvinists, only that they accept the basic Christians doctrine that we all can say amen to.

I would guess there are very few people that fit that criteria .

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I post this not to stir trouble, but as a genuine query. I have read several threads on this forum where people have stated they are members of reformed churches, but have real problems with Calvinist Doctrines.

How many of you out there who belong (member or one who attends) to Reformed Churches have this problem, and with which aspects?

There are several layers to your question.

The first is that membership vows in most reformed churches do not require the same level of knowledge about theology as does the vows for either ruling or more strictly for teaching elders.

The wider issue here is now being debated in the PCA under the rubic of 'subscriptionism' for TE's.
i've written on this issue at:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rmwilliamsjr/107691.html
i think i caught the majority of the important issues as links here.

As for the narrower question:
there is a difference between attending and be a member of a church.
There are really no requirements for an attender other than good peace and responsible conduct so as not to disturb the congregation. For a member in the PCA i promised:

To become a member in any PCA church, you will be asked these five membership vows:

1. Do you acknowledge yourself to be a sinner in the sight of God, justly deserving his displeasure, and without hope, except through his sovereign mercy?

2. Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and savior of sinners, and do you receive and trust him alone for salvation as he is offered in the gospel?

3. Do you now resolve and promise, in humble reliance upon the grace of the Holy Spirit, that you will endeavor to live as becomes a follower of Christ?

4. Do you promise to support the church in it's worship and work to the best of your ability?

5. Do you submit yourself to the government and discipline of the church, and promise to strive for its purity and peace?

from: http://www.westminstershortercatechism.net/membershipvows.html

Now there is nothing particularly Calvinistic in these vows. They are things that all Christians ought to be able to promise.

The issues of differing in doctrine, or as you put it disagreeing with theology, is more an issue of the teaching within a church than the membership. I assume there are rather more diversity in the church i am a member than i would suspect. Mostly based on ignorance of the doctrines, people just don't seem to know the intracacies, but the membership vows dont require them to.

But what happens if you are knowledgable and disagree?
then the clause to preserve the peace and good order of the church is applicable and on that issue you must remain silent and not teach others to disagree with the theology. Is this a big deal?

that is another thread, i'm sure.

 

[IHaveQuestions]

I guess I wonder why anyone with major "problems "with Calvinism would attend a Reformed church or call themselves a Calvinist .

I am not saying that they consider themselves Calvinists, just that they are members of a Reformed Church.

My Bible Presbyterian church does not require that members be Calvinists, only that they accept the basic Christians doctrine that we all can say amen to.

Your above two quotes kinda contradict themsleves

Out of interest are there any non Calvinists in your church? What theology do they subscribe to?

I would guess there are very few people that fit that criteria .

What do you mean here?

 

[IHaveQuestions]

Thank you for your input rmwilliams

There are several layers to your question.

The first is that membership vows in most reformed churches do not require the same level of knowledge about theology as does the vows for either ruling or more strictly for teaching elders.

Yes, and that is probably true of most churches, not just reformed ones.

The wider issue here is now being debated in the PCA under the rubic of 'subscriptionism' for TE's.
i've written on this issue at:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rmwilliamsjr/107691.html
i think i caught the majority of the important issues as links here.

I have had a quick look at your link, I will give it more attention when I have a little more time to do it justice

As for the narrower question:
there is a difference between attending and be a member of a church.
There are really no requirements for an attender other than good peace and responsible conduct so as not to disturb the congregation. For a member in the PCA i promised:

Quote:

To become a member in any PCA church, you will be asked these five membership vows:

1. Do you acknowledge yourself to be a sinner in the sight of God, justly deserving his displeasure, and without hope, except through his sovereign mercy?

2. Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and savior of sinners, and do you receive and trust him alone for salvation as he is offered in the gospel?

3. Do you now resolve and promise, in humble reliance upon the grace of the Holy Spirit, that you will endeavor to live as becomes a follower of Christ?

4. Do you promise to support the church in it's worship and work to the best of your ability?

5. Do you submit yourself to the government and discipline of the church, and promise to strive for its purity and peace?




from: http://www.westminstershortercatechism.net/membershipvows.html

Now there is nothing particularly Calvinistic in these vows. They are things that all Christians ought to be able to promise.

Yes that is very true, and your promises are not unlike the ones I took when I joined my church (also a Presbyterian Church )

The issues of differing in doctrine, or as you put it disagreeing with theology, is more an issue of the teaching within a church than the membership. I assume there are rather more diversity in the church i am a member than i would suspect. Mostly based on ignorance of the doctrines, people just don't seem to know the intracacies, but the membership vows dont require them to.

But what happens if you are knowledgable and disagree?
then the clause to preserve the peace and good order of the church is applicable and on that issue you must remain silent and not teach others to disagree with the theology. Is this a big deal?

that is another thread, i'm sure.

I must confess that the whole issue of Calvinism was really only brought to my attention after reading posts on these forums. Before that I was quite happy just to subscribe to the church's promises. In all truthfulness I am still in that position because I cannot in all honesty subscribe to Calvin's views.

(Please don't shoot me off this forum folks I am just being honest (and I am a member of a Presbyterian Church which allows me to post here anyway ))

 

[rnmomof7]

To become a member in any PCA church, you will be asked these five membership vows:

1. Do you acknowledge yourself to be a sinner in the sight of God, justly deserving his displeasure, and without hope, except through his sovereign mercy?

2. Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and savior of sinners, and do you receive and trust him alone for salvation as he is offered in the gospel?

3. Do you now resolve and promise, in humble reliance upon the grace of the Holy Spirit, that you will endeavor to live as becomes a follower of Christ?

4. Do you promise to support the church in it's worship and work to the best of your ability?

5. Do you submit yourself to the government and discipline of the church, and promise to strive for its purity and peace?

Similar to those of the bible Presbyterian Church. A Christian confession of Faith

 

[rnmomof7]

Thank you for your input rmwilliams

Yes, and that is probably true of most churches, not just reformed ones.

I have had a quick look at your link, I will give it more attention when I have a little more time to do it justice

Yes that is very true, and your promises are not unlike the ones I took when I joined my church (also a Presbyterian Church )


I must confess that the whole issue of Calvinism was really only brought to my attention after reading posts on these forums. Before that I was quite happy just to subscribe to the church's promises. In all truthfulness I am still in that position because I cannot in all honesty subscribe to Calvin's views.

(Please don't shoot me off this forum folks I am just being honest (and I am a member of a Presbyterian Church which allows me to post here anyway ))

I am surprised the basics of calvinism was not reviewed before membership.

We have people who attend our church because it stresses the word of God . They like the Biblical focus.

No one checks credentials at the door :>)

May I ask if you belong to a PCUSA?

 

[IHaveQuestions]

I am surprised the basics of calvinism was not reviewed before membership.

We have people who attend our church because it stresses the word of God . They like the Biblical focus.

No one checks credentials at the door :>)

May I ask if you belong to a PCUSA?

LOL no I am across the pond from you in Bonnie Scotland and am a member of the Church of Scotland

 

[theseed]

I voted "major problems" because as a Calvinist, I realize the depth of my sin, the extension of God's wrath, and the limitations of His Love.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that I have doubts about what The Bible teaches--but only that it's hard to emotionally accept.

 

[oworm]

I find those that have problems with Calvins writings either haven't read them or have only picked up second hand information on the doctrines of Election and Predestination and zero in on those doctrines slating them as non biblical or even heretical!!

 

[rnmomof7]

I am not saying that they consider themselves Calvinists, just that they are members of a Reformed Church.


Your above two quotes kinda contradict themsleves

Not intended to be confusing.

I am a 5 point Calvinist. I left a wonderful Wesleyan church because I wanted to sit under the teaching and authority of a Reform church.
(So I was speaking for myself in the 1st instance)

Out of interest are there any non Calvinists in your church? What theology do they subscribe to?

you know I suspect that the bulk of Christians are not all that concerned about doctrine. They are interested in the sermons and the fellowship


I was making an observation on the official position of our church.
We place no condition on membership except the person be born again.

Yes we do have several non Calvinists as members. We are 1st and foremost a conservative bible believing and bible teaching church .
So people that want to hear sound teaching (not seeker friendly) do join.

My visiting Baptist son came to church with me today, he loved the sermon on being good ministers of the gospel .

He loved the fact that the supporting scripture was used for every point.

That is why they join.

I know several of our members came from a nearby Wesleyan church , I would suspect that most have never considered doctrine.

 

[JM]

I'm a five pointer, I deny most of Reformed theology such as aillennialism and aspects of covenant.

 

[rnmomof7]

I voted "major problems" because as a Calvinist, I realize the depth of my sin, the extension of God's wrath, and the limitations of His Love.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that I have doubts about what The Bible teaches--but only that it's hard to emotionally accept.

It is very sobering when you understand that in NO way are you or anything YOU do pleasing to God.

He IS pleased with His work IN You.

Sometimes people will say that it is "proud" to believe in election, actually it is incredibly humbling to know salvation is 100% and 0% you .

 

[JM]

I don't see any problems with God's plan or man's understanding of it, He did give us the intellect to understand His plan.