Calvinist+Anglican/Episcopalian?

[1cor1522]

Hello to everyone!

I have a question that has been bothering me and I am hoping all of you here can help me.

I have been attending an Episcopal church for a few weeks now and I am very comfortable and happy there. However I have only recently become aware of the Doctrines of Grace, Calvinism and Reformed Theology. I have been reading and studying some of the various confessions including the WCF (1646), the WSC, WLC, the Three Forms of Unity and the 39 Articles of Religion. I know there are more, but I haven't gotten to those yet. ;-) Also on the side, I have been reading the Institutes, and some books by RC Sproul. Enjoying every bit of it.

Since reading those, I have come to love the Doctrines of Grace and I am in love with Reformed Theology. I haven't really found much I have an issue with as far as the Standards and the 3FU. But I wonder... is it not possible to continue on in the Episcopal church while holding to a Calvinist view? Don't get me wrong, there is a Presbyterian church in my city (PCUSA) but I went there today and it just felt like I needed to run out of there and not look back. And that had nothing to do with the sermon or the views held, but just the ambiance. The entire "experience" felt wrong. The people were nice enough and I was made to feel very welcome. But I just feel like the environment of the Episcopal church was more for me.

Of course, maybe it was just that it was a PCUSA church. There is an OPC church in my city, but I have no way to get out there as I walk everywhere and it is 5 miles from my home. Also there are no Reformed Baptist churches near me. Should I try to find someway to go to the OPC church before settling into the Episcopal church, or would the Episcopal church be sufficient and I could just be a Calvinist Episcopalian? Or is there another church you could suggest where I could comfortably hold to Reformed Theology while still having a similar feel to an Episcopalian service?

Also I am aware of the problems that encompass the Episcopal church. While that is a valid concern, I just really need a place I can worship appropriately but also feel comfortable. And again, the "comfort" I am seeking is not in what I am hearing via teachings, but just the feeling of being in the building. I want proper biblical teaching, AND a place that makes me feel like I don't want run out of there. Where I would want to just sit and stay in quiet prayer and a feeling of peace.

Ugh. I hope this is all making some kind of sense. Any help or words of advice is certainly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

 

[Albion]

On the one hand, we could say that The Episcopal Church tolerates such a wide range of beliefs that Reformed theology, which has always had a place in Anglicanism, shouldn't be considered strange. But on the other hand, most Episcopal parishes these days are not of that leaning.

Your choice, therefore, might be to believe what you do and attend the parish you do, knowing that your POV is probably atypical and not likely to be reinforced by the church...OR...find an Anglican or Episcopal parish (like one of the Reformed Episcopal Church's congregations) that reflects the more Calvinistic side of Anglicanism.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Some problems would arise. Take for example the use of the second commandment and the regulative principle of worship within traditional Calvinist circles. These interpretations would run into some pretty heavy traffic within the Anglican communion, as would certain other aspects of Reformed theology.

When you have an Anglican church in Europe looking like this:

And an Episcopal church in the U.S. looking like this:

Compare it to a European Calvinist meeting house like this:

And an American Presbyterian meeting house like this:

And you can begin to see some of the problems.

 

[Albion]

Some problems would arise. Take for example the use of the second commandment and the regulative principle of worship within traditional Calvinist circles. These interpretations would run into some pretty heavy traffic within the Anglican communion, as would certain other aspects of Reformed theology.

Several problems there that I see:

1. He didn't specify "Anglican Communion." Since he's willing to consider Reformed churches, there's apparently no reason to narrow the range of possibilities to some Anglican churches as opposed to others.

2. He appeared (to me at least) to be concerned about a certain aspect of "Calvinism" -- " the Doctrines of Grace." If I understood the OP correctly, he is comfortable with the Anglican style of worship and much more about Anglicanism. I don't think the idea was to switch to everything that a typical Reformed church would favor (such as the church architecture you showed).

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

1. He didn't specify "Anglican Communion." Since he's willing to consider Reformed churches, there's apparently no reason to narrow the range of possibilities to some Anglican churches as opposed to others.

I should have said "Anglicanism." My mistake.

2. He appeared (to me at least) to be concerned about a certain aspect of "Calvinism" -- " the Doctrines of Grace." If I understood the OP correctly, he is comfortable with the Anglican style of worship and much more about Anglicanism. I don't think the idea was to switch to everything that a typical Reformed church would favor (such as the church architecture you showed).

That's not really what I got from it:

However I have only recently become aware of the Doctrines of Grace, Calvinism and Reformed Theology. I have been reading and studying some of the various confessions including the WCF (1646), the WSC, WLC, the Three Forms of Unity and the 39 Articles of Religion. I know there are more, but I haven't gotten to those yet. ;-) Also on the side, I have been reading the Institutes, and some books by RC Sproul. Enjoying every bit of it. Since reading those, I have come to love the Doctrines of Grace and I am in love with Reformed Theology.

 

[Albion]

I should have said "Anglicanism." My mistake.

OK, but I wasn't really carping about Anglican Communion churches vs. non-member Anglican churches. My point was that he has more options, and showed himself willing to consider them, and that this might affect our advice to him.

That's not really what I got from it:

Hmm. I'm surprised. I noticed, for example, the reference to the 39 Articles. They are often said to have a Calvinistic tilt, but of course that is restricted to only a few characteristics of the Reformed churches. So that's one reason I thought his earlier focus -- or apparent focus -- on the "Doctrines of Grace" was intentional. But maybe I'm wrong about that. After all, it's hard to think that, if he'd considered the OPC, he wouldn't be fully aware of the differences in worship style and much more than just that, from the Episcopal Church's ways.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

OK, but I wasn't really carping about Anglican Communion churches vs. non-member Anglican churches. My point was that he has more options, and showed himself willing to consider them, and that this might affect our advice to him.

Yet the topic of the thread is "Calvinist + Anglican / Episcopal" and he directly asked: "would the Episcopal church be sufficient and I could just be a Calvinist Episcopalian?"

Thus my response was no, not according to most Calvinists.

 

[Albion]

Yet the topic of the thread is "Calvinist + Anglican / Episcopal" and he directly asked: "would the Episcopal church be sufficient and I could just be a Calvinist Episcopalian?"

Thus my response was no, not according to most Calvinists.

Yes, but as we know, "Calvinist" is not a terribly specific term. And many Anglicans DO speak of Evangelical Anglicans as Calvinist or Calvinistic or that those who adhere to the Articles of Religion are accepting Calvinist ideas, or something like that...even if members of the Reformed and Presbyterians would not.

From the Anglican POV, there was nothing especially unusual about his question; I just was not sure if I had picked up all the nuances relating to his dilemma.

 

[JM]

Take your time and continue your studies. I'm certain that your Calvinistic Reformed presuppositions will help you form a biblical worldview from which you can make a decision to remain Anglican or join a more Reformed church.

 

[1cor1522]

Thank you to everyone who responded to this.
I apologize if the OP was unclear. While I am comfortable with how the Episcopal church "feels", I do accept and agree with the Reformed Confessions AND the Doctrines of Grace. So SinnerInTheHands did understand me correctly in that I would be basically a Calvinist Episcopalian.
As to your point Albion regarding:
"After all, it's hard to think that, if he'd considered the OPC, he wouldn't be fully aware of the differences in worship style and much more than just that, from the Episcopal Church's ways." (My apologies, not used to properly quoting on this site yet.)
The only reason I was considering the OPC is that they are the only other Presbyterian church around me. But before going to the PCUSA church yesterday, I had no clue what to expect from a Presbyterian service as an experience. I knew it would be very different from the Episcopal service, but that was it. I didn't go in expecting music by the composer Hayden, a saxophone player playing "When the Saints Go Marching In" during the passing of the offering plate, Youtube videos on an overhead projector, and everyone standing in a circle around the santuary holding hands while taking communion. Is that typical for Presbyterian services? Not being snarky, that is a genuine inquiry.
Don't get me wrong, I have been to other churches throughout my life. Nazarene, Southern Baptist, Church of Christ, Catholic, etc. But I had never been to a Presbyterian service. I had thought it would be something like one of those churches I mentioned (not Catholic though). So I was prepared for different. For some reason though, it was still not what I expected.
All that being said, I had some time to sleep and think on this situation. I am wondering if I was too hasty in my judgment of the service. I am going to try going to the PCUSA again this coming Sunday if I can't find some way to get to the OPC church.
While I still have love for the Episcopal church, I think it best if I do find a chuch that fits more with Reformed theology.

 

[Albion]

Thank you to everyone who responded to this.
I apologize if the OP was unclear. While I am comfortable with how the Episcopal church "feels", I do accept and agree with the Reformed Confessions AND the Doctrines of Grace. So SinnerInTheHands did understand me correctly in that I would be basically a Calvinist Episcopalian.
As to your point Albion regarding:
"After all, it's hard to think that, if he'd considered the OPC, he wouldn't be fully aware of the differences in worship style and much more than just that, from the Episcopal Church's ways."
The only reason I was considering the OPC is that they are the only other Presbyterian church around me. But before going to the PCUSA church yesterday, I had no clue what to expect from a Presbyterian service as an experience. I knew it would be very different from the Episcopal service, but that was it. I didn't go in expecting music by the composer Hayden, a saxophone player playing "While the Saints Go Marching In" during the passing of the offering plate, Youtube videos on an overhead projector, and everyone standing in a circle around the santuary holding hands while taking communion. Is that typical for Presbyterian services? Not being snarky, that is a genuine inquiry.
Don't get me wrong, I have been to other churches throughout my life. Nazarene, Southern Baptist, Church of Christ, Catholic, etc. But I had never been to a Presbyterian service. I had thought it would be something like one of those churches I mentioned (not Catholic though). So I was prepared for different. For some reason though, it was still not what I expected.
All that being said, I had some time to sleep and think on this situation. I am wondering if I was too hasty in my judgment of the service. I am going to try going to the PCUSA again this coming Sunday if I can't find some way to get to the OPC church.
While I still have love for the Episcopal church, I think it best if I do find a chuch that fits more with Reformed theology.

My 'seat of the pants' opinion about your experience would be this:

It is said by observers that stagnant membership figures are pushing PCUSA in the politically correct direction that The Episcopal Church has become known for. So, while I think you might be able to find a PCUSA church that is more reserved and traditional than what you described, what you experienced is not unusual. The "rub" is that almost all the smaller Presbyterian bodies are strongly on the other end of things, and there isn't much in the middle.

As a result, and as we say to other inquirers who are in a similar quandary when dealing with both a theological preference and a travel problem, I'd recommend spending a few weeks visiting all the available possibilities. There's really no substitute for that.

Good luck and best wishes.

 

[JM]

If distance is an issue a Book of Common Prayer service at a local Anglican church wouldn't be a terrible thing to suffer through. My insomnia has, at times, kept me up for more than 24 hours so I'll attend the 8:30 am BCP service with my grandmother rather than miss church. True, the sermon is often a moralistic (think Veggie Tale) talk, but the service has plenty of scripture.

For me too many "smells and bells" during a service is a big turn off. Same with rock band worship teams. If you find these elements a distraction try a conservative Baptist church. see Regulative Principle

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[1cor1522]

JM, I am glad you mentioned the BCP. That is something I actually really love about the Anglicans/Episcopalians. I found out there is a Presbyterian Book of Common Worship which is similar, but it seems largely unpopular and disliked. I have heard the arguments against it and I get it. But I really enjoy that kind of thing. Especially the morning/evening daily offices with all the scripture reading mixed in. I am thinking of using the Presbyterian BCW at home during the week for those daily prayers/offices in addition to studying the Westminster Standards and other Confessions.
I think it is because I was (loosely) raised in a Catholic church that I grew to love that similar ambiance. Of course I don't need a "high church" setting. But the rock band worship teams is a bit much for me as well.

Albion, I really do appreciate your advice and I will certainly use it. :-D

 

[JM]

JM, I am glad you mentioned the BCP. That is something I actually really love about the Anglicans/Episcopalians. I found out there is a Presbyterian Book of Common Worship which is similar, but it seems largely unpopular and disliked. I have heard the arguments against it and I get it. But I really enjoy that kind of thing. Especially the morning/evening daily offices with all the scripture reading mixed in. I am thinking of using the Presbyterian BCW at home during the week for those daily prayers/offices in addition to studying the Westminster Standards and other Confessions.
I think it is because I was (loosely) raised in a Catholic church that I grew to love that similar ambiance. Of course I don't need a "high church" setting. But the rock band worship teams is a bit much for me as well.

Albion, I really do appreciate your advice and I will certainly use it. :-D

I've been attending an Anglican Church for a while now. It's been good. The stained glass doesn't bother me and I've come to enjoy it.