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Calvinist and hell

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SeventhValley

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Would you still go to church if you found out you were not elect? Since election is impossible to know why waste your time with church. If you are saved you are saved if you are dammed you are dammed either way you can live it up and none of your actions matter one way or the other.

Also God states he loves everyone and wants all to be saved but then only elects a few because he has to show his judgment. That seems to make God impotent. The apostle Paul said "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.-1 Timothy 2:3-4"
This would imply that God was bound against his will to elect only some so he could show judgment instead of going with his will to save all.
 

DocNH

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I am not going to Hell because I am elect. Peter says to make our calling and election sure (Make Your Calling and Election Sure - 2 Peter 1:10). John says we may know that we have eternal life (I write these things to you who believe - 1 John 5:13). So, I can know and I do know. As Paul says, "... for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me" (2 Tim. 1:12).

1 Timothy 2 is not teaching that God is a miserable failure and desiring what he has not achieved; as he has sent many to Hell. It is rather teaching that God desires all types of people saved (even kings and those in authority - 1 Tim. 2:1, see Everyone - 1 Timothy 2:1-3). See post 58 - http://www.christianforums.com/t7715212-6/

Once one understands who the non- elect are, they have no problem with God's justice in the matter. See Election (pdf)

Before salvation people do not know whether they are elect or non-elect. Thus the question "Would you still go to church if you found out you were not elect?" should not be addressed, as it mere controversial speculation rather than advancing God’s work, 1 Tim. 1:4.


Would you still go to church if you found out you were not elect? Since election is impossible to know why waste your time with church. If you are saved you are saved if you are dammed you are dammed either way you can live it up and none of your actions matter one way or the other.

Also God states he loves everyone and wants all to be saved but then only elects a few because he has to show his judgment. That seems to make God impotent. The apostle Paul said "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.-1 Timothy 2:3-4"
This would imply that God was bound against his will to elect only some so he could show judgment instead of going with his will to save all.
 
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The Conductor

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From the Westminister Larger Catechism: A Commentary by Johannes G Vos

'Suppose some person says: "If I am predestined for eternal life, then I will receive it no matter whether I believe in Christ or not..."
...God does not elect persons to eternal life apart from the means thereof...

Suppose some person says: "If God from all eternity has ordained me to dishonor and wrath for my sins, then there is no use for me to become a Christian..."
The only way we can find out God's decrees is by coming to Christ and receiving, in due course, the assurance of our salvation.'

In other words, I know I am elect because I know I am elect. Those who are not elect who still attend a church have either never heard the Gospel, even in a church, or else have suppressed it in their hearts.

Basically, there is no way to find out if you're non-elect, except the hard way.
 
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The Conductor

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And God desires all to be saved much in the same way he desires all not to murder. When he sent down that command, he didn't think, "oh, maybe now they'll stop killing each other." It's another case of God's standard being higher than what will happen.
 
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The Conductor

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God does not elect people apart from the means thereof. If you are elect you will believe in Jesus, and you will undergo sanctification. You might backslide, but you will persevere.

Romans 8:29-30 NIV
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
 
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Osage Bluestem

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From our perspective if a person is still alive he might believe in Christ and repent. To tell any living soul they are reprobate with no chance of salvation is an abomination before God who's gospel proclaims that Christ died for sinners and all who have faith in him are saved.
 
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The Conductor

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So you can suppress predestination?

No, but you can suppress the truth in unrighteousness. (Romans 1:18-23)

Man, if not totally depraved, should not ever hate or murder.
Man, if not totally depraved, should go to heaven.
 
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The Conductor

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If God predestined all then isn't murder part of his will?

Courtesy of Calvinist Corner:
Calvinists do not deny free will. We affirm that people are free to choose what they want to choose. We state that the unbelievers nature is so corrupt that he does not have the ability in his own will, to choose to follow God.

God is not responsible for the evil that is accomplished by the free will actions of fallen people.

Genesis 50:20 NIV
You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

Romans 3:5-8 NIV
But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!
 
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Rhamiel

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even if I knew I was predestined to go to hell, I would still go to church,
praising God is a good thing, to only do it because you want to get something out of it makes you no better then a mercenary

plus I know I would have to do it now because I would not be able to do it when I get to hell
 
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SeventhValley

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even if I knew I was predestined to go to hell, I would still go to church,
praising God is a good thing, to only do it because you want to get something out of it makes you no better then a mercenary

plus I know I would have to do it now because I would not be able to do it when I get to hell

Thanks for actually answering my question.
 
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jdbrown

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Would you still go to church if you found out you were not elect? Since election is impossible to know why waste your time with church. If you are saved you are saved if you are dammed you are dammed either way you can live it up and none of your actions matter one way or the other.

Also God states he loves everyone and wants all to be saved but then only elects a few because he has to show his judgment. That seems to make God impotent. The apostle Paul said "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.-1 Timothy 2:3-4"
This would imply that God was bound against his will to elect only some so he could show judgment instead of going with his will to save all.
How would someone find out that they are not elect?

Why would someone who is non-elect want to go to church?
 
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The Conductor

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Ultimately, this comes down to Total Depravity. If I found out that I was not elect, then I would not want to go to church because I would hate God in my heart because I was Totally Depraved. As it is, I am elect and I do wish to worship God because I love Him. I might like to think that I would worship God if I were not elect, (I do appreciate your sentiment Rhamiel,) but Paul clearly says that

“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Romans 3:10-18 ESV

If you want to learn more, this site is good: (I only put them up now because I just now crossed the fifty post mark.)

a
a

I apologize if at any point I sounded like I felt Smugly Superior (some joke that S-Smug Superiority is the secret 6th point of TULIP). I do not consider you any less of a Christian, and I hope you do not think so of me. As Paul said, each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. (Romans 14:5b) God's grace go with you as you carry on your day.
 
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The Conductor

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None are righteous and Jesus came for the sinners not the righteous so Jesus came for everyone. How is that different from Catholic or Orthodox Christianity?

Do you not believe that none are righteous?
Do you not believe that Jesus came for the sinners, not the righteous?

Mark 2:17
And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Jesus never said that he was saving all of them, just that he was calling them to repent. If they did, as Matthew did, then saved they were.

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/Jesus-tulip.htm

If you want to learn more about reformed theology, let me know, but if you just want to criticize and proselytize against us, that is against forum rules. I wish you no ill, and I hope you mean likewise. As it is, I am done with this thread. Feel free to PM me if you want information on Reformed theology. God bless.
 
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DocNH

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We need to keep Jesus' words in context. What was Jesus saying?

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

First, any assessment of this text that states that God desires all men to be saved is without merit. Jesus says in Matthew 11:

20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

If God had desired all men saved, then why did he not work certain miracles there to see them saved? The fact is God choose not to work certain miracles at Sodom and choose only to save a few!

Jesus even spoke in parables at times so people will not understand the Gospel. Matthew 13 says:

10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” 11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ 16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Note, that some are "blessed" to hear and others are not. Of course, hearing comes available only after one is no longer dead. Only then can they listen - see below.

Second, while all men are sinners and thus unrighteous (Rom. 3:10), Jesus says, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick" (compare "healthy", "doctor", and "sick" with "heal" in Matt. 13:15 above). Paul says that we are so unrighteous that we are "dead in trespasses and sin" (Eph. 2:1-3). One thing about dead people, they do not know they are sick or dead; after all they are dead. As those dead to God, they do not "seek" God (Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14, etc.) and have no idea (do not "understand", compare Matt 13 above) they have a need of the Great Physician (Rom. 3:11). Thus, before they may call upon the Lord they must be made alive (regenerated - John 3). Upon regeneration they are drawn irresistibly to Christ (John 6:44, 65) and given the gifts of repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26) and faith (Eph. 2:8-10), etc. (the rest of the ordo salutis).

Third, Jesus was answering a question seen in Mark 2:16, which says, "And the scribes of the Pharisees, when they saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors, said to his disciples, “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?” Jesus was addressing the "self-righteous" teachers of the law (whom Jesus was not eating with) and comparing them to some of those who knew they were in need of a physician.

PS: And the text does not say that everyone that sat down with Jesus and ate with him was saved. The text merely says publicans and sinners - all kinds of sinners. Note that it actually reverses the word order (sinners and tax collectors ... tax collectors and sinners) to drive home the point that Jesus considered all sinners equal - that is in need of the same Great Physician. However, the text also drives home the point that Jesus did not desire all men to be saved, as he did not work a "miracle" in those that questioned him and did not invite them to eat with him (of which they had no desire to do, thus illustrating Paul's words "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot, Rom. 8:7).

So, the Scripture differs greatly with Catholic or Orthodox doctrines! Someone might even say their doctrine is sick and in need of the Great Physician. Hopefully, the Spirit will open ears to hear (1 Cor 2:14).


None are righteous and Jesus came for the sinners not the righteous so Jesus came for everyone. How is that different from Catholic or Orthodox Christianity?
 
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