Calvinism

[Imjustme12345]

Hi everyone, I have recently had a conversation with a Christian who is a calvansit, now I alwasye considered myself an Arminian, I hope I spelled that right,
Now I really dont know which way to go but I am a girl who likes to cover my basses, so if calvanist is true, how would one who strugles with faith know if they are saved?

For instance I am someone who wants God in my life, though faith has never been easy for me, I honestly dont know why, so a more direct question is in the Calvanist systen of belief,

Is my wanting a relationship with god proof of my salvation, or is my strugles with faith proof I am not part of the elect?

See my friend cant seam to tell me.

 

[lesliedellow]

In any theology worthy of the name, if you sincerely want God in your life, and you look to Christ for your salvation, you are saved. It has to do with the will, rather than the feelings - although you would never believe it if you listened to happy-clappy Christians.

Everybody has doubts, and this is not a sin. To wilfully turn your back on God is. God will bring you to greater faith in his own good time - and that time can extend over decades.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

...if calvanist is true, how would one who strugles with faith know if they are saved?

Is my wanting a relationship with god proof of my salvation, or is my strugles with faith proof I am not part of the elect?

See my friend cant seam to tell me.

Thanks for visiting us, Imjustme12345. The proof salvation is actually not different for both Arminian and Calvinist, if I'm not mistaken. A sinner still comes to salvation by grace through faith. They both hold that we don't come by our salvation by works, but the Arminian makes an exception for one work, which is the act of faith, itself. If you take a person who shows visible evidence of having turned from sin, accepting faith in Christ, and obeys the commandment of water Baptism, both Arminian and Calvinist would say that person evinces salvation.

How would one who struggles with faith know if they are saved? The fact that you're still struggling is your first clue. You wouldn't be struggling with your faith if you didn't have faith to struggle with in the first place. The advice you're going to get from this Calvinist is to put your trust in Jesus, even for your faith. Let him carry your faith for you. The constant struggle to maintain one's own faith is just like the constant struggle to be a good Christian. It's still a human effort at achieving works. You're going to wear yourself out, if you're not careful. You can't have righteousness unless God instills it in you. Faith is no different.

 

[BryanW92]

Is my wanting a relationship with god proof of my salvation, or is my strugles with faith proof I am not part of the elect?

I was Arminian for many years, but have discovered the comfort and ease of Calvinism in the last year. So, I've known it both ways.

Yes, the fact that you desire a relationship with God is proof that you are one of the Elect. As corrupt beings, we are unable to want a relationship with God unless we are in the Elect. But, the non-Elect can desire relationships with "other" gods, such as nature spirits, humanism, and such.

As for doubt, the opposite of faith is not doubt as many think it is. The opposite of faith is fear. Everyone has doubt, regardless of your level of faith. Since God doesn't mark us in a physical way, doubt is just part of our journey.

 

[iambren]

A complete,total,ticket-in-your-hand-to heaven,is not faith. The Armenian may feel they have true faith and not be one of His. The Calvinist,taking a sinful turn,may doubt that he ever was truly one of the Elect. So we are down to a real faith,given to us by His grace,that permanently changes our disposition toward seeking/serving Him (yet knowing imperfectly). It is using faith day by day trusting that you are one of His children.

 

[Imjustme12345]

thank you all for your responces, I have another question now if I may ask, a lot of christians mostly Calvanists say that wanting to go to church is a sing of salvation, but I honestly dont like going to church, I love being one on one or in a small group delving into and having a meaningfull conversation about scripture, but many dont seam to see that good enough, is there a perticular scripture that tells us we should want to go to church? Because I know we should gather with fellow christians, but that dosent have to be in a church does it? Isnt talking even one on one about scripture with a fellow christian the point

 

[BryanW92]

thank you all for your responces, I have another question now if I may ask, a lot of christians mostly Calvanists say that wanting to go to church is a sing of salvation, but I honestly dont like going to church, I love being one on one or in a small group delving into and having a meaningfull conversation about scripture, but many dont seam to see that good enough, is there a perticular scripture that tells us we should want to go to church? Because I know we should gather with fellow christians, but that dosent have to be in a church does it? Isnt talking even one on one about scripture with a fellow christian the point

Church is people. Small groups are the best church there is.

 

[BryanW92]

One on one discussions of scripture are great, as long both of you are mature Christians. If both participants do not have sound theology, then you just reinforce each other's ignorance and that can get dangerous. Just go over to the Non-Denominational forum and read some of the stuff written by the "I don't need any church" types.

The biggest advantage of attending an organized church is that the teaching is better, and you have a larger population to sharpen your theology on.

Plus, our faith is more than just "discussing scripture"! We need corporate worship too. If you don't like that, then you need to examine your own faith. As modern "rational" people, we tend over-think things and the first thing about our faith that we convince ourselves that we no longer need is corporate worship. Why do we do that? Because that's the part that we can't control. We have to do what someone else wants to do, and that interferes with our sense of the "personal god" that we all strive to become when we ignore the Holy Spirit.

 

[Imjustme12345]

I have been told that if I dont like going to church I need to examin my faith, but why? I honestly dont have that much scripture under my belt but is there perticular passages someone can give saying we should want to go to church.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
Hebrews 10:24,25 (ESV)

Church serves a very important purpose. Your identity as a Christian is found in the body of Christ. The word, "Christian" is a group identifier. We meet together as a reinforcement of that identity. I agree with everything posted by BryanW92 on this point. Whether or not you enjoy the ritual of going to church every Sunday is not the issue. It's a question of whether you understand and agree with the purpose behind it. If we cease to attend church, then Christianity is doomed to mutate and dissolve. We attend not only for our benefit, but for the encouragement of others, sometimes just by being there as an affirmation to our shared faith, though we would otherwise be lost in a sea of secularism. Church is not a form of entertainment. It is something that we do to accomplish a purpose.

Incidentally, I do hope you can find some kind of small group, like a Sunday school class to participate in.

 

[BryanW92]

I have been told that if I dont like going to church I need to examin my faith, but why? I honestly dont have that much scripture under my belt but is there perticular passages someone can give saying we should want to go to church.

Why don't you like it?


Is it the people? People are the church. If you can't stand to worship with people, then ask yourself why. Can you be around people in other venues?

Is it the worship style? There's a gazillion churches out there. One of them fits your worship style.


Do you find it pointless and ask yourself, "what are we doing here?" That is the worst of all because it shows that you aren't there in worship at all. If God actually manifested in church, would it be more interesting to you? Would you ever miss it if you knew that Jesus or a great glowing cloud of light and fire was going to show up? Well, he is there and the visible signs are found on those other people.


This is the God who created the universe and it is our privilege to be able to worship him in a church. Much of the world does not have that privilege and will gather together wherever they can to worship and they don't stop when the hour is up. They go until their pastor and/or leaders are just exhausted and they are still begging for more.


The whole "I'm a Christian, but I don't like church" is the ultimate #firstworldproblem because we don't know what its like to say, "I'm a Christian and they'll kill me if I go to church." or "I'm a Christian and I have to walk 10 miles to get to a church". or "I'm a Christian and my village only has one bible."

 

[Imjustme12345]

Why don't you like it?


Is it the people? People are the church. If you can't stand to worship with people, then ask yourself why. Can you be around people in other venues?

Is it the worship style? There's a gazillion churches out there. One of them fits your worship style.


Do you find it pointless and ask yourself, "what are we doing here?" That is the worst of all because it shows that you aren't there in worship at all. If God actually manifested in church, would it be more interesting to you? Would you ever miss it if you knew that Jesus or a great glowing cloud of light and fire was going to show up? Well, he is there and the visible signs are found on those other people.


This is the God who created the universe and it is our privilege to be able to worship him in a church. Much of the world does not have that privilege and will gather together wherever they can to worship and they don't stop when the hour is up. They go until their pastor and/or leaders are just exhausted and they are still begging for more.


The whole "I'm a Christian, but I don't like church" is the ultimate #firstworldproblem because we don't know what its like to say, "I'm a Christian and they'll kill me if I go to church." or "I'm a Christian and I have to walk 10 miles to get to a church". or "I'm a Christian and my village only has one bible."

Well its kinda hard to say, I think is has more to do with the people than actually going to church, the people just seam to be putting on airs, and seam stuck up, now I dont know whats in there hearts but thats just how they came across to me, but the only interaction I really had was with the older women, you know the nosy type. Never really had a chance to talk with anyone else, and that was a while ago.

Plus I go to a Mormon church, now I know the Mormon religion its self is cultic, but the cult like beliefs that most Mormon churches taught , have never been taught at my church, I had a conversation with a woman from our church about those beliefs, and she had never even hurd of them, so I figure it would be okay to go but even considering the fact that they dont pratice those beliefs other Christians still tell me not to go, but I am not allowed to go to any other church. At least not without consequences from my family.

 

[Skala]

Hi everyone, I have recently had a conversation with a Christian who is a calvansit, now I alwasye considered myself an Arminian, I hope I spelled that right,
Now I really dont know which way to go but I am a girl who likes to cover my basses, so if calvanist is true, how would one who strugles with faith know if they are saved?

For instance I am someone who wants God in my life, though faith has never been easy for me, I honestly dont know why, so a more direct question is in the Calvanist systen of belief,

Is my wanting a relationship with god proof of my salvation, or is my strugles with faith proof I am not part of the elect?

See my friend cant seam to tell me.

Salvation is the same in both Arminianism and Calvinism; By faith in Jesus Christ.

Why do you doubt your faith in the face of Calvinism, but not in Arminianism? Do you trust yourself more than God? That's the only reason I can think of why you would doubt your salvation. In Arminianism, salvation is in your own hands, thus you are confident because you trust yourself to do the right thing. But in Calvinism, salvation is in God's hands. Don't you trust him to keep you?

So the question is, do you trust yourself to keep yourself saved (Arminianism) more than you trust God to save you? (Calvinism)

 

[GodBlessed777]

Hi everyone, I have recently had a conversation with a Christian who is a calvansit, now I alwasye considered myself an Arminian, I hope I spelled that right,
Now I really dont know which way to go but I am a girl who likes to cover my basses, so if calvanist is true, how would one who strugles with faith know if they are saved?

For instance I am someone who wants God in my life, though faith has never been easy for me, I honestly dont know why, so a more direct question is in the Calvanist systen of belief,

Is my wanting a relationship with god proof of my salvation, or is my strugles with faith proof I am not part of the elect?

See my friend cant seam to tell me.

Calvinism is a nut shell says that all of mankind were created as divine automatons, striped of Free Will.

 

[hedrick]

I’m not going to say anything about Arminianism. Getting into a battle of theologies isn’t going to help the OP develop confidence.

The concept behind Reformation theology, whether Calvinist or Lutheran, is that our confidence is in God and his promises to us. Those promises say that he loves us and will save anyone who asks.

Anything that causes us to look to ourselves for salvation is a mistake. But there are traps like that buried in absolutely every theological system, including Calvin’s. For example, the paragraph above, some people will say “OK, so he’ll save anyone who asks, but am I asking well enough?” And so then they develop complex theories about asking so they can judge it.

But that misses the point. Our confidence isn’t in our faith, but in Christ. For the Reformers, faith meant primarily trust. So faith in Christ means we trust him to save us. We don’t trust our own faith. Christ isn’t sitting there checking out your faith with a faith-o-meter. Justification by faith simply means to forget about the quality of your own life and trust that when God says he wants you as his child he’s serious. And don't let that turn into an examination of the quality of your trust...

——

As to attending a Mormon church, you say you haven’t seen any cult-like behavior and then you say there will be consequences for your family if you attend another church. That *is* cultish behavior. Anybody that holds members by threats (even if they aren’t made explicitly) of consequences for family is a church you want to get out of immediately and get your family out of.

 

[GodBlessed777]

I’m not going to say anything about Arminianism. Getting into a battle of theologies isn’t going to help the OP develop confidence.

The concept behind Reformation theology, whether Calvinist or Lutheran, is that our confidence is in God and his promises to us. Those promises say that he loves us and will save anyone who asks.

Anything that causes us to look to ourselves for salvation is a mistake. But there are traps like that buried in absolutely every theological system, including Calvin’s. For example, the paragraph above, some people will say “OK, so he’ll save anyone who asks, but am I asking well enough?” And so then they develop complex theories about asking so they can judge it.

But that misses the point. Our confidence isn’t in our faith, but in Christ. For the Reformers, faith meant primarily trust. So faith in Christ means we trust him to save us. We don’t trust our own faith. Christ isn’t sitting there checking out your faith with a faith-o-meter. Justification by faith simply means to forget about the quality of your own life and trust that when God says he wants you as his child he’s serious. And don't let that turn into an examination of the quality of your trust...

——

As to attending a Mormon church, you say you haven’t seen any cult-like behavior and then you say there will be consequences for your family if you attend another church. That *is* cultish behavior. Anybody that holds members by threats (even if they aren’t made explicitly) of consequences for family is a church you want to get out of immediately and get your family out of.

I completely agree with the fact "that our confidence is in God and his promises to us. Those promises say that he loves us and will save anyone who asks."

Hello Hendricks,

Thanks for kindly replying to my post.

However, the version of Calvinism/New Reformed Youth is very adamant about man's total depravity and his inability to accept or put his trust in God. To them it's about being predestined to salvation. Yes, you must put your trust in Jesus BUT there is no way of knowing if you've been predestined to salvation until you stand before God's Throne. This puts them in a position where they really don't care about evangelism, discipleship, it's just about getting together and discussing the five points of calvinism. This is horrific.

In Scripture I clearly read that those who choose to believe (FREE WILL) Romans 10:9-10 are saved when they put there trust in Jesus. As I read you also believe.

I didn't understand the Mormon church part of your post. I'm not a Mormon, and I believe it is a satanic cult.

 

[hedrick]

I haven't heard the people GodBlessed777 is talking about. Sometimes Calvinists are so gung-ho that they spend all their time talking about TULIP. That's not the case in the traditional Reformed churches. But sometime people who don't like Calvinism hear things that aren't there. I can't tell which is true here. Reformed Christians should focus on evangelism and discipleship.

The comment about Mormons may have been from a different conversation, but it wasn't directed to you. It was directed to the OP of whichever thread I was looking at.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Is my wanting a relationship with god proof of my salvation, or is my strugles with faith proof I am not part of the elect?

See my friend cant seam to tell me.

Wanting a relationship is not THE proof, but can be an evidence, then again, there are enough false religions and people in them who are seeking some kind of relationship (of their own imagination) with a god or gods but according to Scripture with the wrong god, which is no true god at all, unfortunately their seeking is a form of idolatry.

Every Christian struggles with faith at some time or another, to doubt is part of the fleshly carnal nature, the old nature. No Christian walks in the Spirit 24/7 day in and out. All Christians are weak in their own strength, engaged in Spiritual warfare 24/7 like it or not, and susceptible to falling into temptations, because we still live in the old body, not in glorified bodies. Basically what I am trying to say is, more often than not when a Christian sins, the chief cause, the root of the problem is doubt, unbelief, which nags at us constantly, and causes much heartache and grief.

So as far as Calvinism and struggles with faith are concerned, just because one is a Calvinist, and believes they are elect, does not mean a Calvinist will not struggle with faith, however Calvinism does have ways of comforting and assuring where other theological-philosophical-psychological systems do not (if they are consistent which most often is not the case).

If I were not elect, I would not want a relationship with the God of Bible, I would want a relationship with a god of my own imagination, of my own liking, and he/she/it would probably closely resemble me.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Calvinism is a nut shell says that all of mankind were created as divine automatons, striped of Free Will.View attachment 158957

Please do not make such bald assertions which prove nothing and mean nothing, especially when they misrepresent at best, and are flat out not true. It is a sin to bear false witness, I urgue you to learn the historical Calvinist position, and have enough respect to properly represent those you do not agree with and or opposed to.

Have you never read any of the Reformed Confessions where they expound on this subject of the will? Have you never read Luther or Calvin on the subject or Augustine whom Calvin relied so heavily on? Statements like yours would have me thinking no.

As W.E. Best say's "Absolute freedom of the will can belong only to God. No law restrains God’s will, because He is His own law. Since God is sovereign, no power can overcome His will. He is omnipotent."

Do you not believe in the biblical doctrine of election? Is the man centered version of this one of man electing himself, and destining himself, whereas the God centered and Biblical version is the one where God elects, God chooses, freely of His own sovereign will, which no man can thwart or overturn the council of His will. Salvation belongs to the Lord, not man.

Have you ever wondered, why God chose to reveal Himself to Israel, of all the nations? Why did God not choose to reveal Himself in the same way to other nations as He did with Israel? With the smallest of nations, He entrusted with His oracles, the oral and written Word, to be as from the mouth of God. The point here is, in the Bible, we are introduced to a God who picks and chooses from the very start, and does not change, no the methods of His choosing are the same.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Yes, you must put your trust in Jesus BUT there is no way of knowing if you've been predestined to salvation until you stand before God's Throne.

*ahem* No way of knowing? Pray tell HOW do you KNOW that? Please do give Scripture references. When you've done that, perhaps I might respond in kind with Scripture references, but unless or until you can answer my question and provide a basis, I really have not motivation or burden of proof.

his puts them in a position where they really don't care about evangelism, discipleship, it's just about getting together and discussing the five points of calvinism. This is horrific.

Yes yes, just like those evangelistic Calvinists of the "Great Awakening", you know Jonathan Edwards and George Whitfield. What an awful thing to say my friend, and sorry to say, but ignorance concerning the history of evangelicalsim.

Take a few minutes and read about Presbyterian (Calvinist) A.T. Pierson, "Pierson was also a pioneer advocate of faith missions who was determined to see the world evangelized in his generation. Prior to 1870, there had been only about 2000 missionaries from the United States in full-time service, roughly ten percent of whom had engaged in work among Native Americans. A great movement of foreign missions began in the 1880s and accelerated into the 20th century, in some measure due to the work of Pierson.[1] He acted as the elder statesman of the student missionary movement and was the leading evangelical advocate of foreign missions in the late 19th century." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Tappan_Pierson

You see these Calvinist pioneers laid the foundation for non-Calvinist evangelicals, and today we see results of non-Calvinist evangelicalism, or the decay of evangelicalism. Maybe someday some Calvinist missionaries will come to America and be instrumental to God the Holy Spirit bringing another much needed spiritual awakening.