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TheCosmicGospel

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Calvinism drives me nuts. Limited atonement? Doctrine of election? These are denials of the Gospel, of grace, and makes the cross to be of no effect. Or what am I not getting?

Does it do any good to dialogue with them at all? I am visiting my daughter who attends a Calvinist leaning Southern Baptist. I have to attend without being too critical. How do I do this?

Peace,

Cos
 
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Zoness

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Calvinism drives me nuts. Limited atonement? Doctrine of election? These are denials of the Gospel, of grace, and makes the cross to be of no effect. Or what am I not getting?

Does it do any good to dialogue with them at all? I am visiting my daughter who attends a Calvinist leaning Southern Baptist. I have to attend without being too critical. How do I do this?

Peace,

Cos

:amen::amen::thumbsup::thumbsup:

You can't its not possible, they are just as critical of everyone else.
 
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DaRev

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Calvinism drives me nuts. Limited atonement? Doctrine of election? These are denials of the Gospel, of grace, and makes the cross to be of no effect. Or what am I not getting?

Does it do any good to dialogue with them at all? I am visiting my daughter who attends a Calvinist leaning Southern Baptist. I have to attend without being too critical. How do I do this?

Peace,

Cos

Plug your ears and hum "A Mighty Fortress". You should be fine. :p
 
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Lazerboy

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Calvinism drives me nuts. Limited atonement? Doctrine of election? These are denials of the Gospel, of grace, and makes the cross to be of no effect. Or what am I not getting?

Does it do any good to dialogue with them at all? I am visiting my daughter who attends a Calvinist leaning Southern Baptist. I have to attend without being too critical. How do I do this?

Peace,

Cos

They would reject your notion that they are denying the Gospel. Indeed, some of them might say that they know the Gospel best. A more moderate Calvinist would just say that they have a different Gospel-interpretation. When they read things like "God so loved the world..." they generally tend to read it as "God so loved the elect in the world..." I say this with some first-hand knowledge as I used to be a pretty staunch 5-point Calvinist. When you visit your daughter, it may be best to avoid discussing religion at all or else just focus on the things you share in common such as your need for forgiveness and your thankfulness for the God-grace.
 
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Edial

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Calvinism drives me nuts. Limited atonement? Doctrine of election? These are denials of the Gospel, of grace, and makes the cross to be of no effect. Or what am I not getting?

Does it do any good to dialogue with them at all? I am visiting my daughter who attends a Calvinist leaning Southern Baptist. I have to attend without being too critical. How do I do this?

Peace,

Cos
I would say that most of the people that attend (and are members of) a Calvinist church do not fully understand Calvinism.

Although it is Scriptural in nature it is based on reasoning, hence T.U.L.I.P.

The crux of Calvinism is Limited Atonement, that is Christ died ONLY for the elect. (Entire TULIP is based on it).
However, there is NOT ONE verse that plainly states that. :)

The verses that are circulated are that "Christ died for the church ... ".
Yes, but it does not say He died ONLY for the church.
Limited Atonement however, says He died ONLY for the church.
A verse in Romans plainly says He died for one believer. Does that mean He died ONLY for that believer?
There is also a verse that with His blood he bought even false teachers.:)

There is also a verse that He died NOT ONLY for us, but ALSO for the rest of the world.

But, as you know ... even plain verses can be explained away. :)

To many Calvinists it does not even matter that John Calvin himself, the papa of Calvinism, da man himself :) ... repented in his Last Will and Testament of the Limited Atonement in a most clear language. :)

So, Calvinism (in my opinion) cannot be proven by the Scriptures.

It is also attractive to people, ... because it gives answers to many questions. And people like answers.

Calvinism however has benefits.

I have seen people transformed by the power of God from their lowest points in lives apparently because they depended on God's sovereignty.

It also makes people read and study the Bible for themselves. And this is very important. No more relying on Pastor to explain things.
Read for yourself then compare to what the Pastor is saying.

What should you do to not be overly critical?

Well, if it is Southern Baptist, it is not fully Reformed.

So that should ease your personal objections.

So, they are brainwashed. :)
So what? :) All of us are getting brainwashed here and there in our own denominations. :liturgy:

Look at the people ... Does our Lord work in their lives?
Do you see Christ on their faces and smiles and handshakes and words?
Do you see the Christ in the midst of them?

If He is there - should we be overly critical of the doctrine?
Besides, most of the Calvinists do not really know Calvinism anyways.
Too complex. :)
 
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Lazerboy

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Calvinism however has benefits.

Indeed. A great missionaries-number have been Calvinists, taking the God-word to many distant shores. My wife might not be a Christ-follower today if not for the Calvinist-missionaries-work.
 
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Forscher

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Calvinism drives me nuts. Limited atonement? Doctrine of election? These are denials of the Gospel, of grace, and makes the cross to be of no effect. Or what am I not getting?


Peace,

Cos

I am not getting why you would say it deny the Gospel or grace?
At least I know that the Calvinist would say that TULIP is about grace. In fact it is actually called Doctrine of Grace.

I, personally, got my first moment realizing that I am a sinner and only through faith in Jesus could I be saved, while I was learning Doctrine of Grace. So even until now, yes, I confess, I still hold this doctrine.

The Calvinists would say that the entire TULIP (Doctrine of Grace) is based on the Total Depravity. If you get that one, the rest will follow. So the fact that there are 4 points Calvinists, or as many Lutherans would only agree in T and U (assuming no double predestination), is quite confusing for me. I did read all the opposing views, but don't know, it's just still in my head. Maybe because I follow the same logic, reasoning, or whatever you would call it. If that's bad, so be it.

All I know is after learning Lutheranism, I do feel Christ is closer and more intimate. I now view my baptism differently (and only now do I thank my parents for baptizing me as a baby), the communion is really the work of God and not depends on my faith, the Law and Gospel change how I interpret every sermon or bible passage (with Christ in the center). I found comfort.

But....still I can't let that TULIP go.
 
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DaRev

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the communion is really the work of God and not depends on my faith,

Communion does indeed depend on your faith. If one does not believe, they do not receive any benefit from the Sacrament. In fact, they receive judgement if they receive the Sacrament unworthily.
 
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Edial

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I am not getting why you would say it deny the Gospel or grace?
At least I know that the Calvinist would say that TULIP is about grace. In fact it is actually called Doctrine of Grace.

I, personally, got my first moment realizing that I am a sinner and only through faith in Jesus could I be saved, while I was learning Doctrine of Grace. So even until now, yes, I confess, I still hold this doctrine.

The Calvinists would say that the entire TULIP (Doctrine of Grace) is based on the Total Depravity. If you get that one, the rest will follow. So the fact that there are 4 points Calvinists, or as many Lutherans would only agree in T and U (assuming no double predestination), is quite confusing for me. I did read all the opposing views, but don't know, it's just still in my head. Maybe because I follow the same logic, reasoning, or whatever you would call it. If that's bad, so be it.

All I know is after learning Lutheranism, I do feel Christ is closer and more intimate. I now view my baptism differently (and only now do I thank my parents for baptizing me as a baby), the communion is really the work of God and not depends on my faith, the Law and Gospel change how I interpret every sermon or bible passage (with Christ in the center). I found comfort.

But....still I can't let that TULIP go.
Actually it is not based on Total Depravity, but on Limited Atonement.

Total Depravity is just a way to lead the train of thought that defines Calvinism. First letter of TULIP.

Did Christ die for all? Even Judas Iscariot?

Stronger grace (in my opinion) is when one dies for an undeserving sinner, like Judas Iscariot.

Then, the framework of the everlasting judgement is laid out by the sinner himself when he turns away and leaves turning down the outsretched hand.

We all understand this, because it was made simple to understand.

Hey, even children understand this. :)

Thanks, :)
Ed
 
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TheCosmicGospel

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I am not getting why you would say it deny the Gospel or grace?
At least I know that the Calvinist would say that TULIP is about grace. In fact it is actually called Doctrine of Grace.

I, personally, got my first moment realizing that I am a sinner and only through faith in Jesus could I be saved, while I was learning Doctrine of Grace. So even until now, yes, I confess, I still hold this doctrine.

The Calvinists would say that the entire TULIP (Doctrine of Grace) is based on the Total Depravity. If you get that one, the rest will follow. So the fact that there are 4 points Calvinists, or as many Lutherans would only agree in T and U (assuming no double predestination), is quite confusing for me. I did read all the opposing views, but don't know, it's just still in my head. Maybe because I follow the same logic, reasoning, or whatever you would call it. If that's bad, so be it.

All I know is after learning Lutheranism, I do feel Christ is closer and more intimate. I now view my baptism differently (and only now do I thank my parents for baptizing me as a baby), the communion is really the work of God and not depends on my faith, the Law and Gospel change how I interpret every sermon or bible passage (with Christ in the center). I found comfort.

But....still I can't let that TULIP go.

The trouble I have is understanding just who are the Elect? Since we are all born in total depravity, we certainly don't earn this title. God just willy nilly decides without any reason? There is no Gospel used in this equation.
The best a person can do is hope to be one of the ELECT. But hearing the Gospel, being baptized, taking the Lord's Supper are only tokens and mean NOTHING!

The man down the street. boozing and using drugs has just as good as reason as me to be one of the ELECT. He doesn't ever go to church. I hardly call this grace when Christ's death on the cross means nothing. It was unnecessary since God already detemined His Elect. We have just been left with the quandry of determining if we are one of the ELECT.

Of course this is why Calvinists look upon the sacraments as signs of election. But they are not actively bringing anyone to faith- simply signs.

Peace,

Cos
 
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Forscher

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Communion does indeed depend on your faith. If one does not believe, they do not receive any benefit from the Sacrament. In fact, they receive judgement if they receive the Sacrament unworthily.

Yes, that came out wrong. What i meant was: before, I thought that withouth faith Christ was not there in the substances.
 
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Forscher

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The trouble I have is understanding just who are the Elect? Since we are all born in total depravity, we certainly don't earn this title. God just willy nilly decides without any reason? There is no Gospel used in this equation.
The best a person can do is hope to be one of the ELECT. But hearing the Gospel, being baptized, taking the Lord's Supper are only tokens and mean NOTHING!

The man down the street. boozing and using drugs has just as good as reason as me to be one of the ELECT. He doesn't ever go to church. I hardly call this grace when Christ's death on the cross means nothing. It was unnecessary since God already detemined His Elect. We have just been left with the quandry of determining if we are one of the ELECT.

Of course this is why Calvinists look upon the sacraments as signs of election. But they are not actively bringing anyone to faith- simply signs.

Peace,

Cos


The Election is also taught by Lutheranism. It is sad many forget that. THis doctrine is for our consolation, not to make us despair in thinking are we the elect or not.


43] Thus far is the mystery of predestination revealed to us in God's Word, and if we abide thereby and cleave thereto, it is a very useful, salutary, consolatory doctrine; for it establishes very effectually the article that we are justified and saved without all works and merits of ours, purely out of grace alone, for Christ's sake. For before the time of the world, before we existed, yea, before the foundation of the world was laid, when, of course, we could do nothing good, we were according to God's purpose chosen by grace in Christ to salvation, Rom. 9:11; 2 Tim. 1:9. 44] Moreover, all opiniones (opinions) and erroneous doctrines concerning the powers of our natural will are thereby overthrown, because God in His counsel, before the time of the world, decided and ordained that He Himself, by the power of His Holy Ghost, would produce and work in us, through the Word, everything that pertains to our conversion.
45] Thus this doctrine affords also the excellent, glorious consolation that God was so greatly concerned about the conversion, righteousness, and salvation of every Christian, and so faithfully purposed it [provided therefor] that before the foundation of the world was laid, He deliberated concerning it, and in His [secret] purpose ordained how He would bring me thereto [call and lead me to salvation], and preserve me therein. Also, that He wished to secure my salvation so well and certainly that, since through the weakness and wickedness of our flesh it could easily be lost from our hands, or through craft and might of the devil and the world be snatched and taken from us, He ordained it in His eternal purpose, which cannot fail or be overthrown, and placed it for preservation in the almighty hand of our Savior Jesus Christ, from which no one can pluck us, John 10:28. 46] Hence Paul also says, Rom. 8:28. 39: Because we have been called according to the purpose of God, who will separate us from the love of God in Christ? [Paul builds the certainty of our blessedness upon the foundation of the divine purpose, when, from our being called according to the purpose of God, he infers that no one can separate us, etc.] 48] Moreover, this doctrine affords glorious consolation under the cross and amid temptations, namely, that God in His counsel, before the time of the world, determined and decreed that He would assist us in all distresses [anxieties and perplexities], grant patience [under the cross], give consolation, excite [nourish and encourage] hope, and produce such an outcome as would contribute to our salvation. Also, as Paul in a very consolatory way treats this, Rom. 8:28. 29. 35. 38. 39, that God in His purpose has ordained before the time of the world by what crosses and sufferings He would conform every one of His elect to the image of His Son, and that to every one His cross shall and must work together for good, because they are called according to the purpose, whence Paul has concluded that it is certain and indubitable that neither tribulation, nor distress, nor death, nor life, etc., shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus, our Lord.
The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord - Book of Concord
 
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TheCosmicGospel

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The Election is also taught by Lutheranism. It is sad many forget that. THis doctrine is for our consolation, not to make us despair in thinking are we the elect or not.


43] Thus far is the mystery of predestination revealed to us in God's Word, and if we abide thereby and cleave thereto, it is a very useful, salutary, consolatory doctrine; for it establishes very effectually the article that we are justified and saved without all works and merits of ours, purely out of grace alone, for Christ's sake. For before the time of the world, before we existed, yea, before the foundation of the world was laid, when, of course, we could do nothing good, we were according to God's purpose chosen by grace in Christ to salvation, Rom. 9:11; 2 Tim. 1:9. 44] Moreover, all opiniones (opinions) and erroneous doctrines concerning the powers of our natural will are thereby overthrown, because God in His counsel, before the time of the world, decided and ordained that He Himself, by the power of His Holy Ghost, would produce and work in us, through the Word, everything that pertains to our conversion.
45] Thus this doctrine affords also the excellent, glorious consolation that God was so greatly concerned about the conversion, righteousness, and salvation of every Christian, and so faithfully purposed it [provided therefor] that before the foundation of the world was laid, He deliberated concerning it, and in His [secret] purpose ordained how He would bring me thereto [call and lead me to salvation], and preserve me therein. Also, that He wished to secure my salvation so well and certainly that, since through the weakness and wickedness of our flesh it could easily be lost from our hands, or through craft and might of the devil and the world be snatched and taken from us, He ordained it in His eternal purpose, which cannot fail or be overthrown, and placed it for preservation in the almighty hand of our Savior Jesus Christ, from which no one can pluck us, John 10:28. 46] Hence Paul also says, Rom. 8:28. 39: Because we have been called according to the purpose of God, who will separate us from the love of God in Christ? [Paul builds the certainty of our blessedness upon the foundation of the divine purpose, when, from our being called according to the purpose of God, he infers that no one can separate us, etc.] 48] Moreover, this doctrine affords glorious consolation under the cross and amid temptations, namely, that God in His counsel, before the time of the world, determined and decreed that He would assist us in all distresses [anxieties and perplexities], grant patience [under the cross], give consolation, excite [nourish and encourage] hope, and produce such an outcome as would contribute to our salvation. Also, as Paul in a very consolatory way treats this, Rom. 8:28. 29. 35. 38. 39, that God in His purpose has ordained before the time of the world by what crosses and sufferings He would conform every one of His elect to the image of His Son, and that to every one His cross shall and must work together for good, because they are called according to the purpose, whence Paul has concluded that it is certain and indubitable that neither tribulation, nor distress, nor death, nor life, etc., shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus, our Lord.
The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord - Book of Concord

This is Gospel election - God caling us by the means of grace to come to know Him. This is not represented by TULIP. To equate the two is a gross misrepresentation.

Peace,

Cos
 
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Forscher

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This is Gospel election - God caling us by the means of grace to come to know Him. This is not represented by TULIP. To equate the two is a gross misrepresentation.

Peace,

Cos


Haha, is that how we call it now? "Gospel election"??
Well, for me, it is the only Election system that all Christian should understand (apart from my opinion that the Calvinists teach the same in their "Unconditional Election").
 
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Edial

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The trouble I have is understanding just who are the Elect? Since we are all born in total depravity, we certainly don't earn this title. God just willy nilly decides without any reason? There is no Gospel used in this equation.
The best a person can do is hope to be one of the ELECT. But hearing the Gospel, being baptized, taking the Lord's Supper are only tokens and mean NOTHING!

The man down the street. boozing and using drugs has just as good as reason as me to be one of the ELECT. He doesn't ever go to church. I hardly call this grace when Christ's death on the cross means nothing. It was unnecessary since God already detemined His Elect. We have just been left with the quandry of determining if we are one of the ELECT.

Of course this is why Calvinists look upon the sacraments as signs of election. But they are not actively bringing anyone to faith- simply signs.

Peace,

Cos
Or, you might ask: "Who would God give his mercy to? Based on what criteria? Didn't He say, He will have mercy on whom He wants to have
mercy?"

For some odd reason Calvinists are saying (all the ones I have spoken to) that we do not know the reasons for God having mercy on people.
The only thing Calvinists agree on is that this has something to do with person's heart.

Apostle Paul however, gave a reason to why he got saved ...
: "
1TI 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. "

Paul (then Saul) was actually thinking he was doing the right thing by chasing these Christians throughout the land.

Basically, mercy is shown to ALL who sin in ignorance. :)

Then there is the criteria of having a receptive heart, an open heart. :)

A Note concerning Calvinists insisting that God INITIATES hardening of people's hearts based on the account of God hardening Pharaoh's heart in Exodus.

Once one reads Exodus and looks at the chronological pattern of the process of hardening Phraraoh's heart, one would quickly see that Pharaoh started hardening his OWN heart due to his own will.

He kept on doing that until God continued hardening it for him.

This agrees with Scriptural principal of God giving a persistant and rebellious sinner the desire of his sinful heart so he would be assured in his willfully induced self-deception and be lost.

2TH 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Pharisees were like that. Christ called them children of the devil in John 8.

Romans presents this as when God gives someone over to the evils of his own heart ...
RO 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts ...

The fact that people will get lost depends on how persistant they will be in rejecting Christ and His Gospel.

RO 10:21 ... "All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Thanks,
Ed
 
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