Calvinism: Why is it so unpopular on CF?

[I <3 Abraham]

I don't really get it, could somebody reading this (from either side) explain why people seem to hate Calvinism so much? I've read some really ridiculous threads on the subject. My favorite is definitely "I'll never join you Count Calvin" in which Calvinism is likened to Count Dooku and the philosophy of the dark side of the force...

The infantile nature of the comparison aside, why is it that yall rub people the wrong way?

 

[edie19]

I don't really get it, could somebody reading this (from either side) explain why people seem to hate Calvinism so much? I've read some really ridiculous threads on the subject. My favorite is definitely "I'll never join you Count Calvin" in which Calvinism is likened to Count Dooku and the philosophy of the dark side of the force...

The infantile nature of the comparison aside, why is it that yall rub people the wrong way?

In a nutshell - I think folks don't like the fact that they didn't choose God. In today's world we want to be responsible for our decisions (unless of course it was our mother's fault). We've forgotten the simple Scriptural truth that no one seeks after God (Romans 3:10-12).

edie

 

[drstevej]

I don't really get it, could somebody reading this (from either side) explain why people seem to hate Calvinism so much? I've read some really ridiculous threads on the subject. My favorite is definitely "I'll never join you Count Calvin" in which Calvinism is likened to Count Dooku and the philosophy of the dark side of the force...

The infantile nature of the comparison aside, why is it that yall rub people the wrong way?

Calvinism rubbed me the wrong way too, until God turned me around from a man-centered focus to a God-centered focus.

Rub a cat the wrong way and he will bristle, turn him around and the same strokes will make him purr.

Some of the "cats" here need to be turned around, that's all.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I don't really get it, could somebody reading this (from either side) explain why people seem to hate Calvinism so much? I've read some really ridiculous threads on the subject. My favorite is definitely "I'll never join you Count Calvin" in which Calvinism is likened to Count Dooku and the philosophy of the dark side of the force...

The infantile nature of the comparison aside, why is it that yall rub people the wrong way?

Here are my 2¢ worth.

I.m like Dr. Steve. When I first meet a Calvinist and started looking into it, I too hated it. I became so angry when I read Boettner's book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, that at one point I threw it across my bedroom and shouted "I'm not gonna believe that garbage!"

But by God's grace, and the kindness of some godly Christians, I came to love these great truths of Scripture.

We naturally hate these teachings, because we are humanists at heart. We want to take credit for what "we" do. We think that if it is God who works in us than have no free will.

We have a free will, but our will (free though it is) is fallen in Adam and we desire to do "our sinful will" and not God's holy will. It is only after God changes our hearts of stone into hearts of flesh, that we now desire (freely) to serve Him, and even then He is working in us both to will and to do His good pleasure.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[CCWoody]

I feel so cheated that I never had a phase where I got to hate Calvinism.

 

[PapaLandShark]

I got into a debate over free will with someone who had a reformed background. I soon found myself biting my tail because my conscience forced me to be honest. I didn't like it one bit. That's the truth for you.

 

[strengthinweakness]

Here are my 2¢ worth.

I.m like Dr. Steve. When I first meet a Calvinist and started looking into it, I too hated it. I became so angry when I read Boettner's book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, that at one point I threw it across my bedroom and shouted "I'm not gonna believe that garbage!"

But by God's grace, and the kindness of some godly Christians, I came to love these great truths of Scripture.

We naturally hate these teachings, because we are humanists at heart. We want to take credit for what "we" do. We think that if it is God who works in us than have no free will.

We have a free will, but our will (free though it is) is fallen in Adam and we desire to do "our sinful will" and not God's holy will. It is only after God changes our hearts of stone into hearts of flesh, that we now desire (freely) to serve Him, and even then He is working in us both to will and to do His good pleasure.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

Very good post, Kenith! My experience with Calvinistic Christianity was much the same as yours. As an Arminian, Calvinism-detesting Christian, I once said to a girlfriend, "I would rather go to Hell than worship that kind of God!" When I later, finally began to understand (and submit to) the teaching of the Bible concerning God's sovereignty, I was very humbled. I had been very wrong.

 

[mlqurgw]

Debate can get very abrasive and often both sides fall into name calling and just being mean. The problem that I see most often is that most non-Calvinists have a skewed view of Calvinism. Because of this they portray the teachings in as bad a light as they can. This tends to cause us to get defensive and the vicious circle begins. Calvinism is actually very positive and loving yet it is rarely thought of that way by those who oppose it. If you read much of the debates you will find most of the time Calvinists spend is trying to deal with false accusations against it. Add the fact that we can be a testy bunch, especially when we believe the glory of God is at stake.

 

[Dmckay]

I attended a Bible College that was rather Arminian. T.U.L.I.P. and Calvinism were only taught as an event in Church History. I did have one professor who while never stating where he stood either way, challenged everyone in all of his classes to show him even one passage in which Jesus ever called someone to salvation. His thesis was that Jesus' call was always to accept Him as Lord and salvation came out of that.

I found as I seriously studied this challenge over the years that the opposition to the idea of Lordship salvation was that it didn't allow for "free-will." I have yet to have anyone show me from Scripture where they get their doctrine of "free-will."

That Professor that started me on my destination of being a 5-pointer, was named Mark Bailey, who strangely enough, is President of Dallas Seminary, one of the real opponents of Calvinism.

 

[Imblessed]

my .02 cents worth.......

I think it's because people don't understand calvinism. They have this cartoonish image of what we believe, and understandedly, it's not pretty.

I also think people have a hard time accepting that they didn't "choose" God. God chose them. To them, it implies there are countless hordes of people in hell through "no fault of their own". That right there, sends up the walls, and causes people to hate the idea of calvinism.

 

[mlqurgw]

my .02 cents worth.......

I think it's because people don't understand calvinism. They have this cartoonish image of what we believe, and understandedly, it's not pretty.

I also think people have a hard time accepting that they didn't "choose" God. God chose them. To them, it implies there are countless hordes of people in hell through "no fault of their own". That right there, sends up the walls, and causes people to hate the idea of calvinism.

I think it has more to do with the fact that it puts people on their face in the dust at the feet of Christ.

 

[Dmckay]

[WIKI][/WIKI]

I think it has more to do with the fact that it puts people on their face in the dust at the feet of Christ.

I totally agree!!! Humans hate to be humbled in any way.

 

[Catherineanne]

I think it has more to do with the fact that it puts people on their face in the dust at the feet of Christ.

Absolutely.

Which is not where Our Lord himself would put us. I would never expect any of my friends or loved ones to grovel in the dust to me, so why would My Lord, who loves me more than anyone else does; why would he expect such a thing? It makes no sense.

I personally had nothing against Calvinists until this week, but after the responses I have had to some posts, I have learnt that Calvinism means intolerance of other points of view, culminating in judgement of others salvation, to the point of rudeness and beyond.

I would be very pleased to learn that, actually, Calvinism isn't like this, and that there is a willingness to listen to other points of view, even if you do not share them. That would be a good thing to hear.

 

[Catherineanne]

Calvinism is actually very positive and loving yet it is rarely thought of that way by those who oppose it.

I am really pleased to hear this, because I want very much to see the positive and loving side. I have seen lots of the other side, but no evidence of love.

 

[Erinwilcox]

I am really pleased to hear this, because I want very much to see the positive and loving side. I have seen lots of the other side, but no evidence of love.

Perhaps if people showed more love, people would be less irritated. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I realize that this is no excuse for people to be unloving, but when people are baited, accused, and mocked the natural human tendancy is to go defensive.

 

[I <3 Abraham]

Absolutely.

Which is not where Our Lord himself would put us. I would never expect any of my friends or loved ones to grovel in the dust to me, so why would My Lord, who loves me more than anyone else does; why would he expect such a thing? It makes no sense.

I personally had nothing against Calvinists until this week, but after the responses I have had to some posts, I have learnt that Calvinism means intolerance of other points of view, culminating in judgement of others salvation, to the point of rudeness and beyond.

I would be very pleased to learn that, actually, Calvinism isn't like this, and that there is a willingness to listen to other points of view, even if you do not share them. That would be a good thing to hear.

I don't know where Christ would put me. I do know that he commended and forgave the woman who washed his feet with her hair and tears and was very sinful.

Let me say that I don't know Calvinism from a hill of beans but I think the starting point is to really wrestle with the fact that there is not one thing in this world we can do to DESERVE salvation. It's a rough pill to swallow but I think it is the difference between Jesus being our savior and Jesus being a messenger, a teacher of what we must do to save ourselves. Correct me if I'm wrong calvinist dudes, I am interested and really have no venom for yall.

 

[Catherineanne]

Perhaps if people showed more love, people would be less irritated. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I realize that this is no excuse for people to be unloving, but when people are baited, accused, and mocked the natural human tendancy is to go defensive.

And what is the difference between defending and attacking?

Love does not defend. Love accepts people for who they are.

 

[Beoga]

And what is the difference between defending and attacking?

Love does not defend. Love accepts people for who they are.

Even if they are an unrepented, wicked, enemy of God who hold to beliefs that attack His name?
What about Christians who hold to views that are are contradictoring to what God has revealed in His word? Are we to accept them just as they are?

 

[CCWoody]

And what is the difference between defending and attacking?

Love does not defend. Love accepts people for who they are.

How come it is that you have not accepted me for what I believe? Rather, you have gone out of your way on my thread to personally attack me.

You know, suggest that I am a homophobe, etc. Yep, real "loving."

 

[heymikey80]

And what is the difference between defending and attacking?

Love does not defend. Love accepts people for who they are.

"Love does not defend"? I think Love defends to the hilt. Love doesn't crumple under beratement nor is it deceived by smooth talk.

No, I think while love accepts where we are, it is hide-bound not to leave us where we are. And that involves confrontation and pain (1 Tim 5:20, 2 Tim 3:16, 4:2, Lk 13:3,5, Lk 17:3, Heb 12:11, :7-8).

And I think that's demonstrated by your example, is it not?

Ultimately, this is "Ask a Calvinist", it's not "Debate a Calvinist", which you can find elsewhere.