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Calvinism VS. Arminianism: A Futile Argument

Osage Bluestem

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You fit in better in a pentacostal church. They believe like you do. Baptists don't. Pentacostals are all Arminians as well. So, it is pretty well dead certain their actions are false in my view as that system isnt biblical. I don't believe God would bless a false doctrine with those kinds of things.
 
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DeaconDean

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To continue from my previous post, Arthur W. Pink further writes:


Arthur W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God, Chapter 7, God's Sovereignty and Numan Will, Section 3, The Impotency of the Will

As far as I am concerned, that says it all.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Brother, such harsh words.

It is a fact that some Baptist churches do not believe in speaking in tongues, and it is true that some do. The Southern Baptist Convention takes no stance either way:


About Us - Basic Beliefs

In fact, in 1742, it was written:


The Philadelphia Confession of Faith of 1742, Chapter 21, Of Christian Liberty and Liberty of Conscience

While you believe the gift was cut off, I respect that and aplaude your stance in your convictions.

But true Baptists beliefs dictate we not condemn another Baptist who in their own convictions practice it.

I take the stand that I see no reason as to believe they (spiritual gifts) as being cut off.

I respect your convictions, stand firm in what you believe to be true.

And I shall do the same.

But remember that Baptists believed in Christian liberty and liberty of conscience so much, we put in writting befoer this country declared itself "independant".

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Osage Bluestem

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Well, thats a shame. The charismatic movement is pagan and arminianism is a heresy.
 
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DeaconDean

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The charismatic movement is pagan

I'm truly sorry to hear that from you.

Although I disagree with the way Catholicism uses the ECF's, a lot can be learned from them.

The belief and practice of speaking in tongues can be traced back to the early church as far back as the 2nd century AD.


Glossolalia

In fact, the same article shows:

For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to this present time.

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 82.

Now, it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God.

Ibid, Chapter 88

Augustine believed in them also saying:


Augustine, Homilies on the Gospel of John 6:10, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers [7:497-98]

I tell you, I'd be afraid to call speaking in tongues "pagan".

but since I'm in the minority here, and speaking in tongues is not part of the debate, I'll just wish you well in your beliefs.

Too bad nobody will do the same to me.

I guess I'll be counted with the "pagans" as in Acts 2:4:

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DesertScroll

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I think you are arguing with someone else.
My point was your claim about God forcing Himself on someone can be used in the exact same way in regards to creation.

Evil cannot come from God.
Once evil is there God controls it (sovereign). Like hardening a heart, God doesn't take a good heart and harden it, but He hardens a heart that is already hard. God uses sin for His purposes, sin does not originate with Him. Just like desires of the world and anything of the fallen world does not come from God, but from the world (1 John 2:16).

Now as far as something happening in the world, God does want it that way (His plan) but it doesn't mean it originated with Him. Some people don't recognize this difference (and I assume it is a past argument you are referencing).


Once again your off in left field arguing with someone else.

God does force evil to drink a full swig from their own cup... making a hard heart even more hard. Like pharaoh in relation to Moses and Israel.

And once again, the desires are from the world, not God (1 John 2:16).

If you are given the Spirit, then only spirit will come from Him. Just like only sin will come from the flesh. Like produces like.
Nor is their some neutral mind as everything is good or evil in relation to God. It is either from Him or not from Him. It is either Spirit or flesh. And once you have the tree, the fruit is automatic.
I never brought in the potter and the clay. But your interpretation cannot be correct as it is about clay (v.21) which both lumps come from. Spirit is separate from the flesh (John 3:6) and are in fact in opposition (Gal 5:17) so cannot come from the same lump.

If this is your response to mercy not being in relation to anything of man but based upon God alone (Rom 9:11,12,16) you didn't even touch upon the topic.

The reason why once one accepts "By grace you have been saved" the argument is over is because "through faith" is also in reference to "you have been saved".
Its not a matter of only focusing in on one portion of a sentence to come up with a doctrine. It just that once "saved" is by grace, then by necessity, by the language the Bible used for this passage, anything that is associated with "saved" must also be by grace.


How are we saved? By grace.
How was being saved accomplished? Through grace.
And in verse 9, what is the gift? Being saved (not just an offer (gift) to be accepted or rejected).

For the verse to say what you want it would have to say either:

...by grace one has a chance to be saved.

...Or, through faith one qualifies to be saved.

But it doesn't.

That is why once one accepts by grace we have been saved... it is over.

Let me write it out like this:

(Saved by grace)

(Saved through faith)

Saved is both by grace and through faith. They both apply to being saved. So once it is by grace, by necessity so to must faith.

(Saved by grace through faith)

What is in parenthesis is all through faith. Which by necessity means faith is also by grace.

Faith is the means by which grace is actualized.
 
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Osage Bluestem

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The real speaking in tongues referenced in the bible was when a person spoke in a language he didnt know to people who did know that language. It had a use and purpose. It wasnt incoherent babble. It was used to kickstart the church and evangelize.

That is the Christian gift of tongues.

Babbling in incoherent ways has been a part many pagan practices but God always has a purpose and a use for his gifts. He doesnt have people babble. He said tongues are useless without an interpreter. In other words, if a guy starts speaking Russian to the only Russian in the room then someone will be given the gift to interpret Russian to everyone else. It wont be babbling no one can understand if it is from God.
 
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His_disciple3

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and obviously you don't read other's posts too well, I am more welcomed in the pentacostal churches that I preach in, than the Baptist, Pentacostal people understand more That if we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God then we are "ALL" of the same Body, pentacostals don't make fun or tear down other denominations like baptist do, But most don't believe in once saved always saved so salvational doctrine are the ground floor we build on then I am not pentacostal, But I belong to a whole Baptist Church that is Spirit filled. BUt I will not derail this post any longer, for the Bible said if you want to be ignorant than to let you be ignorant, and you are preaching against scripture for sure, for it also says :

1 Corinthians 14:38-39
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
KJV
 
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DeaconDean

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Maybe, maybe not.

You cannot prove than difinatively from the scriptures.

That's only one possible explanation.

Does the Holy Spirit also give the gift of "understanding" a foreign" language as well?

He who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance; one cannot fly into flying.

Friedrich Nietzsche

While you may be able to pick up and speak Russian, somebody there has to tell what is said first.


You really hate our Pentecostal/Charasmatic brethren don't you.

Babbling? Really?

Seems to me I remember reading in the OT:

"Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech...Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth:" Gen. 11:7,9 (KJV)

I'm sure that when God "confounded" the common language of the people, those who spoke Greek, and those who spoke chinese must have sure sounded like "babbling" to them.

Oh well, everybody has their opinion.

I guess the "babbling" at the Tower of Bable is pagan as well.

I'm wrong.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Osage Bluestem

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Those things have to be taken in context, historically and gramatically. Tongues have ceased.

Watch this:

John MacArthur on the charismatic movement - YouTube
 
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GQ Chris

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People love babbling even to this day. You go to almost any Charismatic/Pentecostal church and it is a bizarre display of emotionalism and personality elevation and self made mysticism.
 
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Osage Bluestem

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You really hate our Pentecostal/Charasmatic brethren don't you.

Babbling? Really?

I don't hate them. I just don't believe their charismatic experience is real.

Anyway, what I really have against them is their arminian theology, which is what the thread is about.
 
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His_disciple3

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God uses sin for His Purpose,

that's about "ALL" of your doctrine that I can stomach
 
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His_disciple3

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let me give you this, sure people can fake speaking in tongues, are you saying the Baptist never fakes anything spiritual, are you saying that the baptist won't pat a pentacosta on the back and tell people that this is my pentacosta buddy, then once the pentacosta is gone, make fun of him for his beliefs in the Holy Spirit? but as far as tongues just being a foreign language, if it is an unknown tongue and someone can speak that language or understand it then it is not an unknown tongues, and second do you know anyone that knows the tongues of angels?
 
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Osage Bluestem

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All denominations are flawed and marked by the sin of their members. Only the Bible is 100% correct. Regenerate men, even though we are saved by the grace of God and indwelt by the Holy Spirit are still effected by the corruption of the flesh until we are raised from the dead and glorified. So, we will all sin and fail to understand scripture and grieve the Spirit, but we try to do right and walk in the truth of God's Word and mold our lives and practice in accordance with it and not it in accordance with our lives and practice.

I believe that speaking in the tongues of angels was an illustration made by Paul to make a point, and I believe that no matter what kind of charismatic tongue thing is in question it has ceased if it ever was and no new tongues from God have started again or started for the first time recently. I think the whole charismatic movement is false. It is no wonder that such error erupts from the arminians because arminian theology is false as well. Lies all stem from the same tradition.
 
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Skala

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If I recall correctly, some Charismatics believe that an "experience" is evidence of being born again/truly saved. Thus they say, if a person never has such an experience, they aren't truly saved.

Lets say for the sake of an argument that these "experiences" are real, and really happen.

The Bible says that God gives Christians different amounts of faith, because he has plans for some that he doesn't have for others. (Rom 12:1-8)


Therefore, doesn't it stand to reason that their doctrine that one must have one of these experiences or he/she is not truly saved, doesn't line up with the Biblical testimony that each Christian is different, based on what God gives them?
 
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His_disciple3

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some Baptist believes in calvinism does that make "ALL" baptist calvinist, No, neither does some pentacosta believing that speaking in tongues, is the evidence of being saved, make all pentacosta wrong, saying that "ALL" charismatic are wrong because a few misunderstand scriptures is like saying "All" baptist commit adultery because some baptist preachers run off with the piano players. You are judging "ALL" when you don't know the heart of any, and that my friend is just as wrong as misusing the Spiritual gifts
 
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His_disciple3

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well If you believe "all" are flawed then shouldn't you be focusing on getting the beam out of the Baptist eye before you start working on getting the splinter out of the pentacosta eyes.

if you would truely study the prophecy of Joel ( chapter 2) the very same prophecy that Peter repeated at Penacost, I do mean study it with a clear heart, you would see that God pouring out His Spirit on "all" flesh began at pentacost but clearly says that it will end with the sun darkening and the moon turning to blood, and on that great and notable day that the Lord comes, we are still in the last days of Joel's prophecy and will be until He comes in His fullness, and this is when knowledge, that we know partly, will vanish For we will be part with the True Word. we won't need any more prophecy for it will "ALL be fulfilled, we won't need tongues, we will "All' be as one even with our language. but this has nothing to do with your salvation, but I would be just a little less judgemental on those that don't see it your way, but still believe that Jesus was the Son of God !
 
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DesertScroll

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that's about "ALL" of your doctrine that I can stomach

Just like Assyria (Evil) was the rod of His anger against Israel. And after His purpose through them was finished, He punished Assyria as well. Isa 10:5-12

Guess I'll keep posting these as you don't seem to have an answer:

-Being saved is by grace. (Eph 2:8,9)
-Mercy does not depend upon man's actions or will, but God alone. (Rom 9:11,12,16)



-----
My head banging against scripture started with this:

"For many are called, but few are chosen". Matt 22:14

My question was chosen on the basis of what? I knew it could not be a works, even the parable showed that. I also knew the righteousness was not of ourselves, but of God (Php 3:9). So I struggled, and struggled, and wrestled... and came up with the greatest idea. We don't do anything, Christians were the ones who don't reject God's gift... its passive. A passive acceptance of God's gift.

Then I read:

"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." Rom 9:16

It doesn't rely on man at all, active or passive.

The only question left was why?

God desires all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4).

Isaiah said in 1:9 unless God had left survivors, no one would be left. Paul uses this as Isaiah foretelling about our day "And just as Isaiah foretold[...]" (Rom 9:29). So God desires all to be saved, but because He must act, it must be in line with who He is.

Paul relates through Isaiah again, that although Israel is great in number only a remnant will be saved (Rom 9:27) and the reason is given in the next verse:

"For the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly." Rom 9:28

Because no one would come to Jesus, God must act. And His actions comply completely with who He is, His nature. And His nature has always shown, with the OT giving many examples.... it is always only a remnant.

So the answer for why only a few will chosen? Is because that is what God desires, that is what His nature requires. A remnant that must be saved is the best outcome.


 
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