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Calvinism VS. Arminianism: A Futile Argument

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Kormagh

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This is why it's futile ^

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His_disciple3

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Kormagh said:
This is why it's futile ^

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Click to expand...


KJV
Hebrews 4:12-16
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
KJV

look again that we MAY obtain Mercy, certainly sounds like obtaining mercy is an option
 
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Kormagh

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His_disciple3 said:
look again that we MAY obtain Mercy, certainly sounds like obtaining mercy is an option
Click to expand...

I didn't want to do this, but you left me no choice (pun intended)
http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_32.html#salva

onclusion

It ought to be clear from all that we have seen that the free-willism of our day is indeed a serious error. It is an error which denies the freedom and sovereignty of God's will. For it teaches that man's will is sovereign over God's will. The will of the creature is able to frustrate the will of the Creator. Man is the ruler and governor of God rather than God of man. It is an error which denies the total depravity of the unregenerate. For it teaches that the natural man can will and do good. He, of himself, has the ability to seek God and choose Christ. He is not enslaved to sin and he is not the servant of Satan. It is an error which denies the sovereignty of the grace of God. For God alone is able to make man spiritually free to serve the righteousness of God. It is only when Christ makes us spiritually free that we are indeed free to do what is good. Spiritual freedom is the blessed gift of God's sovereign grace.

Let us, therefore, have nothing to do with this error. Let us believe the Truth of Holy Scripture rather than the lie of the devil.

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His_disciple3

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this what you speak is true to you , but only because this is what you believe to be true, have you not read that it is the will of God that none of these little ones perish, it is calvinism that will not let God be God, they put Him in a box and say that only calvinist can be saved, they ares the ones that will not let God have mercy on whom He will have mercy, you can post all the links you can what will that prove that some calvinist can write an article and another calvinist can post it in here, could the scripture That if the blind lead the blind they will both fall in the ditch apply


but who are you that say that God can't save me. even though, I won't believe the lies of calvinism, It is by grace through faith that I am saved not through my knowledge or lack of knowledge of scriptures. think not it strange that satan himself can be transformed to light, and that he can have his angels behind pulpits, does this apply to you or to me? I am saying that I know That God sent His Son according to scriptures that makes me one of His children, and I say you can be saved also, you say you are saved But I stand no chance because I don't see it your way,

which is the true Gospel, to encourage all to seek the Lord, Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be added unto you. or to tell people that they can't call upon the name of the Lord or seek Him, for He has not enough Love or mercy to save the World as He said He wanted to.

For doctrine takes the feelings away from God it is just a simple pick of whom He casted into Hell, nothing matters, God sits there spreads us all out on the table and says ok one for me one for satan, two for me two for satan!

Hebrews 4:15
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
KJV

He wept, look upon people with anger, He is pleased when we do good, He has feelings. He is not just some cold hearted god, He gives evryone every chance He can before He withdraws His mercy.
 
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His_disciple3

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Does all calvinist claim that the very first time that God convicted them of their sins, or call them to come to Him, that on the first time They answered that call. or can I get one Calvinist maybe you didn't even know about calvinism when you got saved , but God dealt with you for some time, before you surrender, and realized that you needed God, can I get a witness that God dealt with you for some time before you answered Him and said yes Lord I need you, If I can then you got to realized God called and you did not respond the first time, is this not free-will?
 
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phoenixdem

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Did that person continue to refuse God or did God work with that person until the person could no longer refuse God. Do you recall the story of Jonah who ran away from God until God gave him an offer he couldn't refuse?

What is it with this first time thing? Is that supposed to prove something?
 
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DesertScroll

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As I said previously, once you admit by grace we have been saved... its done.
Its just a matter of understanding it. Throwing around verses you think contradict that doesn't refute that truth, as all scripture will also uphold that truth. Once you have a scripture it is about understanding all the verses, not trying to create a contradiction.

Jesus will draw all men to Him. Just not in the way you are describing. Since people cannot cross over after death (Luke 16:26 2 Cor 5:10) Jesus would be leaving out all Gentiles and unfaithful Israelites that died before His sacrifice.

But, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess (Isa 45:23). The word "draw" in John 12:32 literaly means "to drag". That verse does not mean what you think that it does.

You melded the verse to show a logical connection instead of using the scripture's logical connection.

"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled." John 17:12 (NASB)

Jesus guarded them and not one of them persihed.
But the son of perdition.

The connection is "perished". Not one persihed, but Judas. There is "them" which Jesus guarded and "them" that not one of persihed. Judas doesn't belong to either group of "them".

Not "guarded" or "keeping" (which Jesus did not John 13:26,27) nor given to Him by the Father:

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." John 6:63-65

That verse is not a problem in the least.




In regards to being saved respect of persons means God is not partial for any reason to a person (including what nation he comes from). What you failed to respond to is that God's mercy is not based upon any portion of a man... 0% (Rom 9:11,12, 16). God's mercy being by grace does not violate not being a respector of persons in any sense. If God is looking at 0% of a person and 100% God's own purpose, please show how that is being partial to a person?


Just as faith is the realization of grace... so too are actions a realization of grace. As God's new covenant is about God writing on their hearts His law (Jer 31:33). Just as Lydia believed because God opened her heart to respond to the Gospel (Acts 16:14). Belief is through grace and is specifically mentioned to be so in Acts 18:28 "[...]those who had believed through grace".

Any action brought up to try and show "freedom" from God can all be explained in this manner. These examples fit in with election by grace, not refute it. Actions will reflect what God has written on one's heart.

if all calvinist would just stop and really think about what you are saying, you are calling God a rapist of some sort that forces His love on people who can't resist. that's not the God of the Holy Scriptures,
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Our salvation is first and foremost for His glory and for His name (Ezek 36:21-27). And it is all based upon His words which promised things (Gen 3, 12).

If God did not act according to His name and according to His promises... no one would be saved (Isa 1:9 Rom 9:29). Not one.

One cannot have light without God. How you can compare that to rape is beyond me. When God writes His law on your heart... you desire light.

Once again an example that is fully compatable with grace. The saints of the OT had the same type of faith we have (Heb 11) they didn't have the object of faith, Jesus (Heb 11:13, 40).

As for your Paul example, one please site a specific verse(s), there are many that 'might' fit what you are referring to. Second Paul suffering that the elect might obtain salvation means Paul is a tool in God's hands. Just like Paul became all things to all men so that he might save some of them (1 Cor 9:22) is compatable in understanding election. Because as God's workers... we don't know who is and who is not elect until God reveals. Just like Peter and the Gentiles (Acts 10) God shows.

As Jesus said His sheep will hear His voice and will follow Him (John 10:27,37).


Heh, Paul is the tool by which God has chosen to save some of the elect. One is always elect, that is before the foundation of the world. When that election is actualized into salvation is by God. Paul was always elect, but He did not believe the Gospel until God wrote it on his heart.

Your counting as strikes verses elected by grace embraces.



So going to the throne of grace results in 'may' obtain mercy? Does God not keep His promises? Or rather does this passage say that to obtain mercy (that we may), one must go to the throne of grace? The way you have described it, going to the throne of grace is kind of iffy, like a 50/50 chance. So even if one believed in Jesus (throne of grace) one might be saved.

Mercy is by God alone (Rom 9:11,12,16). We go to the throne of grace by faith (following our heart God has written upon) what is bestowed is up to God. We have faith that He keeps His promises. So going to the throne will result in mercy. But notice in passages like Matt 7:21-23 just because one uses Jesus' name and does works in His name... does not mean one has come to the throne of grace.


Now will you be on an unending quest to find verses which cannot be explained by elected grace? Or will you actually deal with the verses you cannot explain (and haven't even tried) and incorporate them into your understanding? The verses don't go away because you "think" you found a counter a verse.... as both verses must be true. A true understanding can show both to be true.

-Being saved is by grace. (Eph 2:8,9)
-Mercy does not depend upon man's actions or will, but God alone. (Rom 9:11,12,16)
 
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His_disciple3

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thank you for saying that calvinism is wrong, God gave Johan an offer he couldn't refuse. that is a choice, thank you! Did that person continue to refuse God, that is a choice, did God continue to work with that person That is applied mercy. are you telling me that you don't know anyone even in your family that has refused God and you don't know if God will ever get through to them , does the Bible ever say that King Agrippa answered the drawing of the Holy Ghost?
Acts 26:28-29
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds. KJV
 
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Kormagh

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His_deciple3,
I understand your argument. I was raised in a church that thought like you do. Have you researched Reformed theology with a hope of finding truth of Scripture or just to prove your own belief? It seems that you just refuse to understand everything I and others have said to you. In one ear and out the other. Hopefully, at the SBC, the ones discussing this issue will be more understanding.

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Lizabth

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"if all calvinist would just stop and really think about what you are saying, you are calling God a rapist of some sort that forces His love on people who can't resist. that's not the God of the Holy Scriptures"

Oh dear. More like an irresistible, entreating husband. Now, your very odd remark did call to mind some J Donne. Holy Sonnet 14
Batter my heart, three-personed God; for you
As yet but knock, breathe, shine, and seek to mend;
That I may rise, and stand, o’erthrow me, and bend
Your force to break, blow, burn, and make me new
I, like an usurpt town to’another due,
Labor to’admit you , but oh, to no end,
Reason, your viceroy in me, me should defend,
But is captived, and proves weak or untrue.
Yet dearly’I love you, and would be loved fain,
But am betrothed unto your enemy:
Divorce me, untie, or break that knot again,
Take me to you, imprison me, for I
Except you’enthrall me, never shall be free,
Nor ever chaste, except you ravish me.​
 
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Reformed Baptist 1689

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So we just ignore areas of disagreements is that it? here does that stop?

Do we ignore our differences with catholics, and accept that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficeient without our works to save us? Do we compromise with the lieberals who deny the virgin birth, and the resurrection?

Why stop there, lets not speak of anything that contradicts the Mormons, or the muslims, of that might upset the gays. Is that what you suggest?

Or do we contend earnestly for the faith that has been delieverd once and far all to the saints?
 
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phoenixdem

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Ok, it has to be me not being able to form my thoughts into words. Let me try again. I apologize for my failure.

Do you have the belief that the Christians who believe that God still runs His Universe believe that God hits a person over the head with a hammer and drags him away like the fanciful picture of a caveman finding his bride to drag away to his cave? No, it isn't that way.

The Holy Spirit works with a person and brings him to the point where that person does submit to God. If the Holy Spirit works with a person over time, does that negate the belief of irresistable grace? I say if, because not every example of a person under conviction is the same. Again, this doesn't mean that the person whom God intends to save and works with over a period of time mean anything but that God,in His mercy, draws a person who eventually gives in.

I used the example of Jonah. Jonah ran from God for a time, but God brought things into Jonah's life that brought him to God. Does this prove that a person has a choice in serving God or do you believe that Jonah isn't now with God in Heaven? God had plans for Jonah who, because he spent three days in the whale, serves as an example of Christ who spent three days in His tomb. The whole thing was planned by God and carried out by God, not by man screaming this is my choice, you can't do this! Jonah found out that God certainly can and did do this.
 
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Clare73

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I like your summary.
 
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His_disciple3

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so you now contradict yourself or you have changed your mind, did Johan not refuse God, or God was just playing with johan: "Johan, I have a job for you to do But I am going to make you not do it so I can get you to do it later? you are digging the hole deeper !
 
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Skala

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I appreciate the fact that light is always better than heat, but I would't say that discussing/debating/arguing/talking about the topics are not important.

For me personally, back when I was an Arminian, tackling this subject has completely changed my worldview, which has affected my thinking, the way I live, and the way I worship God.

Learning that God is sovereign (ie, that God is God) was one of the most freeing, enlightening, defining moments in my entire life. And every Calvinist I've talked to feels the same.
 
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His_disciple3

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but see we can't just pick and choose the verses we want to accept and throw the rest out, we must live by every Word! Romans teaches us that because Of adam, God caused "ALL" men to be borned with a sin nature. so unless He allows or offers "ALL" a relief from the wages of sin, there is two things that happens 1st He is respect of persons 2nd, He caused us to sin, some without relief , so what is His judgement ?

what really blows me away about Calvinist. if God wanted to offer salvation to those that want it , calvinist tells a sovereign God that he can't do it that way, then judges us who says that God allowed me to accept or refuse His love, of telling God what He can do or not do! well if you really believe that God is Sovereign then quit telling Him that He can only saved calvinist, let Him have mercy on whom He will have mercy! and second this is very Bibical, quit preaching/feeding babes in Christ deep/meat Things that you all can't even agree on, 5 point no I am only 4 points , well I am only three points, but lets "ALL" push this doctrine down the mouths of babes
 
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Osage Bluestem

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God never fails to save one he wants to save. Thats why universal redemption fails. It conflicts with God's omniscience, immutability, and omnipotence. It says he fails to save sinners he wants to save who refuse to be saved even though the gap between his intellect and power and theirs is beyond laughable. It is as illogical and irresponsible as a false doctrine could ever be because it places God (the most glorious and wise being) in a position of submitting to the will and merit of his vastly inferior creatures to decide who he will adopt as a brother of Christ for eternity based on a set of rules he must follow. It is an absurdity irreconcilable with scripture and the revelation of the character of almighty God.

God is the object not man. Man is created for God and is utterly subject to his election and providence.

If man actually has repentant faith in Christ it is a gift of the Father based on His good pleasure, not a natural response of man and thus a merit earning a reward God must condescend to give based on rules.
 
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phoenixdem

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Is it really possible that you are beating a dead horse? At first Jonah, not Johan, didn't want to do what God told him. Jonah ran from God, but God knew just how to convince Jonah. In the end, Jonah did what God wanted him to do. I am not contradicting myself. Any contradiction is in your mind. I doubt seriously that I will convince you. Your mind seems to be solidly made up. Ok, we will leave it that way.
 
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His_disciple3

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so you are confirming that your understanding of scriptures Make your god a great big type of rapist who forces people to love Him and there can be no resisitance? and even forces them to serve him, and this is your understanding Of a god of mercy. who forces people to be born in a sin nature and them judges them cause they sinned?
 
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His_disciple3

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well your misunderstanding of calvinism is that God forced Jonah to do what God wanted Him to do, Not convinced, saying convinced is still leaving the decision up to man/Jonah, and this doctrine will just not wash with calvinism, so you ought to know more about the doctrine that you are willing to stand up for before you stand up for it. go ahead start a poll and ask calvinist if their god convinces or forces/make people do things.
 
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