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If you read the political threads you would be led to believe “Total Depravity” is synonymous with “Trump.”
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If you read the political threads you would be led to believe “Total Depravity” is synonymous with “Trump.”How does total depravity play out in a Christian's life. Is a Christian STILL totally depraved? Does God consider a Christian a sinner or a saint?
That's the Unconditional Election part of the issue. Before the foundation of the world, God, by his own counsil, and by his grace chose those he would bring to faith in Christ. This was not based on anything special about the person, nor was it based on his foreknowledge. The names of the saved (the elect) were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. Some people receive mercy, others are passed by and receive justice, no one receives injustice.
The Bible seems to indicate we are declared righteous by God prior to actually receiving God's grace, because God knows and chooses beforehand.
How does total depravity play out in a Christian's life. Is a Christian STILL totally depraved? Does God consider a Christian a sinner or a saint?
Right? Not claiming it does.
Maybe you weren't keeping up with the conversation?
So, as a genuinely converted believer, the last thing that you would want to do is to go back into a willful sinful life, habitually and deliberately practice the works of the flesh as listed in Galatians 5. I maintain that this the passion of every truly converted believer. I think that many underestimate the total and powerful transformation that conversion does within the heart of a person.Because if I choose to live in the flesh (habitual sin), I will spiritually die as Rom 8:13 warns against. I don't want to experience spiritual death and separation from God, therefore my desire is to live according to the Spirit. I am by no stretch of the imagination perfect/sinless but I strive toward living a sanctified life which we all should be doing.
Note that the prodigal son who lived in sin/rebellion is described by Jesus himself in Lk 15:24,32 as being alive AGAIN. The only way I know of for a person to be made alive AGAIN is for a person to become a genuine believer thus being made alive in Christ (1st time). However that new believer at some later point falls into habitual sin (like the prodigal) but later forsakes his sin and returns to the Father in repentance seeking forgiveness (like to the prodigal). He is then forgiven and made spiritually alive AGAIN. The prodigal did not physically die but he died spiritually when he lived a lifestyle of sinning. The prodigal was made spiritually alive AGAIN when he renounced his sins and repented. The prodigal had enough sense to know that he needed to repent and return to his father. Many believers today do not realize that they need to repent and return to the Father because they have been taught hypergrace - grace covers all sin so grace ends up being a license to sin, which Paul also warned against.
I agree that not claiming that one can do what they like after receiving Christ is what the Bible teaches. I would go further that if one claims that they can do what they like, including continuing in sin, this indicates that although one has religion, he is not genuinely converted to Christ. This is because a true convert's main desire and passion is to battle against sin and follow the commands of Christ.
There is a difference between professing the Christian religion and having Christ. The former forms a very broad gate which many go through to try and ease their consciences, but find that all they have is the Christian religion and self-righteousness, which leads them to destruction.The "they never were saved to begin with" thing works great for some of you, it never did and never will for me.
People get saved all the time and fall back into sin. To say they were never saved to begin with is something you cannot prove.
James 5:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Please explain how that doesn't go against you're very popular, learned from man..."they never were saved to begin with"
I keep telling people to read their bibles and double check what you're being taught...but
There is a difference between professing the Christian religion and having Christ. The former forms a very broad gate which many go through to try and ease their consciences, but find that all they have is the Christian religion and self-righteousness, which leads them to destruction.
But those who go through the narrow gate of:
"I'm just a poor sinner and nothing at all,
But Jesus Christ is my all in all",
Show that their Christian profession is real because it is born of the Holy Spirit and comes from their heart.
If you, as a saved person, can freely walk away from Christ, then try it and see what happens. I will guarantee that you will feel like death warmed up through the Holy Spirit getting on your case and making you feel totally horrible and then you will know that walking away from Christ is right against your new heart and nature. Your own heart will scream out against any thought of deserting Christ. The greatest fear that a genuinely converted believer has, is the fear of his own sinfulness and what it can do to him if he let it regain dominance over his life.Sure there is a difference, but that changes nothing from what I stated. I'm talking saved people, so we are past all that.
If you, as a saved person, can freely walk away from Christ, then try it and see what happens. I will guarantee that you will feel like death warmed up through the Holy Spirit getting on your case and making you feel totally horrible and then you will know that walking away from Christ is right against your new heart and nature. Your own heart will scream out against any thought of deserting Christ. The greatest fear that a genuinely converted believer has, is the fear of his own sinfulness and what it can do to him if he let it regain dominance over his life.
Read Foxes Book of Martyrs and see the great lengths genuinely converted believers went to to remain faithful to Christ. They would rather be devoured by lions, crucified, beheaded, burned at the stake, roasted alive, and every other cruel torture and death you can imagine, than turn away or deny Christ even in the smallest way.
James was a Jewish Christian and still complying with the Mosaic Law. His theology was quite different from Paul's. Even in James's time there were professing Christians who were wandering off into various doctrines. Paul warned that grievous wolves (in sheep's clothing) would invade the church, and even people among their own congregation would rise up and draw people away from the truth.Did you ever comment on the verse I asked you to debunk? That's all the proof I need to back my claim.
James was a Jewish Christian and still complying with the Mosaic Law. His theology was quite different from Paul's. Even in James's time there were professing Christians who were wandering off into various doctrines. Paul warned that grievous wolves (in sheep's clothing) would invade the church, and even people among their own congregation would rise up and draw people away from the truth.
Of course, we cannot judge any brother or sister concerning whether they are truly converted or not, because we cannot see into their hearts. I do concede that there are true believers who can fall into error, and there are false believers who fall into error also. But we can't tell the difference between the true and false ones. All we can do is to see to our own hearts, examine ourselves regularly through personal prayer and study of the Word to ensure that we are following the narrow path of fellowship and communion with Christ.
Well, I am Calvinist, and if that is good enough for the Puritans, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, the Moravians, Jonathan Edwards, David Brainerd, Henry Martyn, then it is good enough for me, and I think I am in very good and sound godly company!Ok, I'm convinced what I requested isn't going to happen, and that tells me all I need to know.
The whole bible matters, not just the parts that work for us.
Well, I am Calvinist, and if that is good enough for the Puritans, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, the Moravians, Jonathan Edwards, David Brainerd, Henry Martyn, then it is good enough for me, and I think I am in very good and sound godly company!
You have every right to believe that of course! Doesn't mean that I have to. I just quoted a few godly men who did much more for Christ than I have ever done or ever could do, and they inspire me as great examples of faith, love for Christ, and a passion for souls that I don't have, but wish I did.You've jumped behind that one before...they are not God and though they may help you justify what you need to justify, the mention of them means little to me.
Respectfully, your opinion though sincere is unsupported by the scriptures I cited. You have neglected to address the texts I cited. How is it possible for someone to be made alive AGAIN as in the prodigal's example which Jesus himself taught? How is possible to reconcile your belief with Paul's warning to the brethren in Rome that IF they live according to the flesh, they will die? As you know Scripture does not contradict itself so it is necessary for you to reconcile scriptures such as these in order to maintain your doctrine. If you think that the parable to the prodigal is to the Jews, then much of the gospels have no application to us today. If you think a believer cannot lose his salvation, then James 5:19-20 indicates otherwise. A wayward believer who is turned back from wandering will have his soul saved from death. If you take the mark of the beast are you still saved? I assume you are a genuine believer so I cannot use the rationale that so many assume that those who betray Christ were never really believers in the first place. Scripture is replete with warnings against apostatizing. Those warnings are always directed to the believer; never the unbeliever.So, as a genuinely converted believer, the last thing that you would want to do is to go back into a willful sinful life, habitually and deliberately practice the works of the flesh as listed in Galatians 5. I maintain that this the passion of every truly converted believer. I think that many underestimate the total and powerful transformation that conversion does within the heart of a person.
I continue to maintain that by appearance there is very little difference between a genuinely converted believer and a religious hypocrite. Their outward religious observance are exactly the same. They both attend church regularly, rise to leadership positions, work tireless to get new members for their church, live very moral lives, know the Bible from end to end, and can talk Christian talk with the best of them. The difference lies in their hearts, which only God can see.
The parable of the prodigal son is a story to emphasise that no matter how reprehensible a person's sinfulness is, when they return and repent, the Father's arms are open wide to receive them. It is very risky to form a doctrine of true believers walking away from Christ and then being restored from a parable spoken by Jesus to unconverted Jews.
I say again, genuine conversion is a total transformation of the heart, worked by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit within a person who sincerely and honestly comes through the narrow gate of full and exclusive confidence in the death and resurrection of Christ to save them.
To say that a person can just choose to follow Christ, and then walk away if he feels like it, is a gross misunderstanding of what conversion to Christ actually is, and is a grievous insult to the Holy Spirit who causes it to happen.
Christians are saints. They are also sinners.
This is why there is a controversy between Calvinism and Arminianism, and the different positions in between. One can produce an equal number of Scriptures as the other to prove their respective positions.Respectfully, your opinion though sincere is unsupported by the scriptures I cited. You have neglected to address the texts I cited. How is it possible for someone to be made alive AGAIN as in the prodigal's example which Jesus himself taught? How is possible to reconcile your belief with Paul's warning to the brethren in Rome that IF they live according to the flesh, they will die? As you know Scripture does not contradict itself so it is necessary for you to reconcile scriptures such as these in order to maintain your doctrine. If you think that the parable to the prodigal is to the Jews, then much of the gospels have no application to us today. If you think a believer cannot lose his salvation, then James 5:19-20 indicates otherwise. A wayward believer who is turned back from wandering will have his soul saved from death. If you take the mark of the beast are you still saved? I assume you are a genuine believer so I cannot use the rationale that so many assume that those who betray Christ were never really believers in the first place. Scripture is replete with warnings against apostatizing. Those warnings are always directed to the believer; never the unbeliever.
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