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sdowney717

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Matt 7

Whose Father is He, whose the children?
Is He the Father of the world?
No, He is not Father to the world.
Jesus says to ask, seek, knock to people who have God as their Father.
 
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stan1953

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Matt 7
Whose Father is He, whose the children?
Is He the Father of the world?
No, He is not Father to the world.
Jesus says to ask, seek, knock to people who have God as their Father.

I suggest you read the scripture you actually copied & pasted in v11.....
If you then, being evil....

In the context of what Jesus was talking about God is EVERYBODY'S heavenly Father.
 
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stan1953

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Are you advocating that the NT will contradict what the OP has already seen and read?
The fact is the NT has NEVER stated anyone is "spiritually dead", even in the KJV.

1 Cor 2:6 says nothing about "spiritually dead" either so maybe you can explain how this is concrete?
 
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Butch5

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Dead in sin is a metaphor, it's not "spiritually" dead. There is no such thing as spiritual death as concerns man. There is nothing in Scripture that talks about spiritual death. It's simply a metaphor.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I think the point is that God changes the will. Is the will something independent of the heart of a man, to where God cannot change it?
I think the point is that reformed theology believes that God changes people against their will, though they don't like that phraseology.

God changes the willing. Not the unwilling.

Isaiah 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
And let him return to the LORD,
And He will have compassion on him,
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.

Scripture says that the Lord pardons the unrighteous man who returns to the Lord and the wicked who forsake their way.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Dead in sin is a metaphor, it's not "spiritually" dead. There is no such thing as spiritual death as concerns man. There is nothing in Scripture that talks about spiritual death. It's simply a metaphor.
Actually, Scripture speaks of "death" in a number of ways, one of which is spiritual death.

We know that physical death is determined by the separation of soul and body. In the same way, spiritual death is separation of man from God. Being "born dead in sins" (Eph 2:1) refers to that separation.

When Adam eat the fruit, he died immediately (in the day you eat of it). What actually died? His human spirit, not soul.

So, when the Bible speaks of being born AGAIN, or REborn, or REgeneration, what specifically has been reborn, regenerated? The human spirit.

Man was created trichotomously, "in the image of God", who is Triune. When Adam sinned, he became dichotomous, body and soul.

When man believes in Christ, He is reborn, regenerated, and is again trichotomous.

Unbelievers have a body and soul. And a dead human spirit, separating them from God.

Believers have a body, soul, and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus' words are instructive:

John 4:24
“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

The "spirit here is the human spirit. iow, no one can properly worship God apart from having a human spirit.
 
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Butch5

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I'm aware of what is believed today, however, that is not what the Scripture teach. There is nothing in Scripture about spiritual death (as it concerns man) that is why death is redefined to mean separation from God rather than what it actually means. This definition doesn't fit with what most modern Christians believe since they don't believe that when a believer dies he is separated from God.

Concerning Adam, he lived to be 930 years old. The Scriptures say that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. Adam did not live a thousand years, thus he died in the day he ate of the tree. This is the ancient understanding of the passage about Adam. The argument that Adam died spiritually is made from inference and silence. The passage says nothing about anything spiritual.

The reason that the Scriptures don't say anything about spiritual death regarding man is because man is not a spirit. He is a flesh and bone body that has had the breath of God breathed into him. Gen 2:7 states how God made man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

Man was made from the dust of the ground, that is what a man is. It is God's breath/spirit in man that gives him life.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; {bring...: Heb. cause to bud}
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:17-19 KJV)

Here again God declares that man is dust. He doesn't say a spirit living in a body, He said, dust.
 
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DeaconDean

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I agree with you 100%.

And in the Greek, which you and I reference, the adjectives used in Titus 3:5 are Genitive possessive or Genitive possessive. And who in that sentence possesses or can it be attributed to "washing", "renewal", and "regenerating"?

Man?!?

And you are also correct in the fact that scriptures always reference "regeneration" as an accomplished fact. Never progressive.

But it does not negate the fact that the member I was addressing, has "regeneration" and "sanctification" backwards.

And the fact that man himself, not Christ, not the shed blood of our precious Lord cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

Regeneration and cleansing ourselves is something we must do, and do on a daily basis.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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EmSw

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You don't think Moses knew about the atonement for sins?

Leviticus 9:7 And Moses said unto Aaron, Go unto the altar, and offer thy sin offering, and thy burnt offering, and make an atonement for thyself, and for the people: and offer the offering of the people, and make an atonement for them; as the Lord commanded.

Now, let's see if the shedding of blood is needed for the remission of sins.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations,

Nothing is mentioned of shedding of blood for remission of sins; it is repentance which is needed for the remission of sins. BTW, John the Baptist preached repentance for the remission of sins long before Jesus died.

King David, said he was concieved in iniquity, and in sin, he was concieved. (Psa. 51:5)

Am I any better than the man "after God's own heart"?

You have a problem with David's mother being a sinner when David was born?

Are you better than David? Let's see, have you murdered anyone? Have you committed adultery? Do you have an illegitimate child who died because you sinned? Only you can answer these questions.

Have you sinned since salvation?

Of course I have, but I never said Jesus took ALL my sins at the cross, as some like to believe.

I will ask you, have you sinned since salvation? If you have, then Jesus didn't take all your sins at the cross, for they are still around this very day.


One sees what he wants to see, that which delights his heart.

Tell me what this means to you -
Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit:

1. Who does the casting away?
2. Who makes a new heart?
3. What is a new heart?
4. What is a new spirit?

If you want to pull out the Hebrew words for me, I'll listen. And let me give you the preceding verse which helps explain verse 31.

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

So now we see repentance and turning from all our transgressions is also included in casting away all our transgressions. Please notice what God says - SO INIQUITY SHALL NOT BE YOUR RUIN.

Why would anyone who desires to please God and not die want to ignore these passages?


Of course the Spirit is essential to washing and cleansing. It is also man who washes himself with the help of the Spirit.

Isaiah 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

Washing ourselves is putting away our evil doing and ceasing to do evil.

Jeremiah 4:14
O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved.

It is when one washes his heart from wickedness that he is saved.

Psalm 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

We cleanse ourselves by heeding or obeying the word.

Matthew 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

The Pharisees were told to cleanse first that which is within.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Paul says to the beloved, cleanse yourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit. This is man's continual effort to make himself a new heart, which corresponds to Ezekiel.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

James says it is when we draw near to God that He draws near to us. To draw near to God is cleanse our hands and purify our hearts.

Again, have you sinned just once since you were saved?

If you have, then you have not turned away from your transgressions.

Of course I haven't turned away from all my transgressions. God is working through me for the rest of my life to remove sin from my heart. Being born again does not mean I stay an infant all my life. I have many things to learn and to do in this new life.

I must heed His word in order to grow in newness. If He says to cast away all my transgression in order to make myself a new heart, then I shouldn't question His word, but faithfully do it. If a man can't get past this, I do question his desire to humble himself under the hand of God. I question his desire to listen and obey God.

If a man does not desire to remove sin from his heart, then by necessity he has turned back to his old life where sin becomes his master again. And as sin is a great deceiver, he will see nothing wrong with the old life, but grasps it, loves it, and gives it his full support. He has turned his back on God (even though he speaks of salvation from his lips). As Jesus said in Matthew 15:8 -This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I'm aware of what is believed today, however, that is not what the Scripture teach.
If the verses I've given do not teach spiritual death, please explain how so.

There is nothing in Scripture about spiritual death (as it concerns man) that is why death is redefined to mean separation from God rather than what it actually means.
Seems the problem here is your denial that "death" has several meanings in Scripture. There is no reason to reject the idea of separation between God and man because of Adams's sin. How should one understand these verses?

Hebrews 11:11
By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.
Hebrews 11:12
Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

Romans 4:19
Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb;

It is clear that these verses speak of sexual death, or impotence. And there is the concept of temporal death, meaning loss of fellowship with God through sin, which is seen here:

1 Timothy 5:6
But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.

The context is clear here that "dead" cannot mean physical, nor eternal. It is about loss of fellowship.

This definition doesn't fit with what most modern Christians believe since they don't believe that when a believer dies he is separated from God.
Correct. No believer will ever be separated from God in an eternal sense. But they can be in the sense of loss of fellowship.

Concerning Adam, he lived to be 930 years old. The Scriptures say that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. Adam did not live a thousand years, thus he died in the day he ate of the tree.
Sorry, but none of this makes sense. What is the point of your comments? How long he lived has nothing to do with God's promise that in the day he ate of the fruit he would die. In fact, he DID die that day; spiritually, which we easily see from the context. When the Lord walked in the garden, Adam hid himself, and was unable to have any fellowship with the Lord. That is spiritual death, and perfectly fits what Paul wrote about in Rom 5:12-19.

This is the ancient understanding of the passage about Adam. The argument that Adam died spiritually is made from inference and silence. The passage says nothing about anything spiritual.
In fact, the original Hebrew says "in the day you eat of it, dying, you will die."

So there are 2 deaths being spoken of. The immediate death was spiritual, in which Adam's sin separated him from God, and the eventual physical death from the corruption of the body. That is the very reason WHY Christ went to the cross; to pay the penalty of the sin debt that Adam brought upon the human race.

The reason that the Scriptures don't say anything about spiritual death regarding man is because man is not a spirit.
I believe 1 Thess 5:23 refutes your statement.

When Triune God said "we will make man in our image, that wasn't referring to hair and eye color, etc. iow, Triune God created man trichotomous, meaning body, soul, and human spirit. Adam was created trichotomous, became dichotomous through sin, and all believers, through Regeneration become trichotomous.

He is a flesh and bone body that has had the breath of God breathed into him. Gen 2:7 states how God made man.
This proves nothing of what your claim is.

Man was made from the dust of the ground, that is what a man is. It is God's breath/spirit in man that gives him life.
He's more than that. He was created in the image of God. That proves that man was created trichotomous.

Here again God declares that man is dust. He doesn't say a spirit living in a body, He said, dust.
Sure, man's physical body did come from dust. But not his soul nor spirit. They were breathed into his "dusty" body.
 
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extraordinary

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If a man does not desire to remove sin from his heart, then by necessity
he has turned back to his old life where sin becomes his master again.
Let us all be acutely aware of Paul's most crafty warnings (pl) in Romans 6,
where he explains that those who are slaves of sin will experience eternal death!

6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?


Being involved in habitual unrepented-of sin is asking for the death sentence!

There are believers who insist they have all the righteousness already that they'll ever need!
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]BTW, I was removed from one Christian forum for posting 15 verses,
which teach that we need to obey Jesus commands to gain eternal life.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
.
[/FONT]
 
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heymikey80

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even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved Ep 2:6

Note the past tenses, stan. Y'keep saying this is some kind of foregone future conclusion. That's parsing a clear statement of past action. Many call it eisegesis.

It's what Paul says, plainly.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Why should one assume that "sin leading to death" means "eternal death"? Eternal separation from God is the result of not possessing eternal life.

There are no verses teaching that eternal life can be lost. That's the nature of "eternal". It is exactly that; eternal. Those who have been given the free gift of eternal life have it eternally. Paul tells us that those with eternal life cannot be separated from the love of Christ, and that includes "things present, and things in the future".

Being involved in habitual unrepented-of sin is asking for the death sentence!
Such a view cheapens God's free gift to something less than eternal.

There are believers who insist they have all the righteousness already that they'll ever need!
They're wrong, of course, but so what? Lots of believers make unbiblical claims all the time. As seen in these forums.

BTW, I was removed from one Christian forum for posting 15 verses,
which teach that we need to obey Jesus commands to gain eternal life.
There are no verses that teach that being obedient gains eternal life. That just smacks of a Phariseeical system of works righteousness/salvation.

Eternal life is gained only one way; through faith in Christ.

No doubt your removal from the other forum was because of your view of those 15 verses; not that any of them actually taught what you think they did.

If your claim is true, then what Paul told the jailer was a flat-out lie. As well, what Jesus said in Jn 3:14-16 would also be a flat-out lie.

When there are very clear verses that actually REFUTE a claim, one can be sure that what was claimed is FALSE. And Acts 16:31 and Jn 3:14-16 REFUTES your claim about obedience for gaining eternal life.

Obdience is commanded for blessing and reward. Discernment sorts it all out.
 
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heymikey80

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I think the point is that reformed theology believes that God changes people against their will, though they don't like that phraseology.
In what way does a heart change not change the heart? Would it not be clear that for goodness' sake God does indeed change the evil human heart of stone?

What Calvinists deny is that God compels someone against his will. God does not imprison a contrary will and thrust it into salvation. God changes it. God does indeed change the evil stony human heart.
God changes the willing. Not the unwilling.
If the will were willing it would not need a change to it.
Scripture also says that is nobody, Isaiah 59. And nobody without His Spirit, John 6:65.

Question: does God honor someone who turns to Him with wrong motives?
 
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FreeGrace2

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In what way does a heart change not change the heart?
I never said it wasn't.

Would it not be clear that for goodness' sake God does indeed change the evil human heart of stone?
The change of the heart refers to regeneration, which does not precede faith.

What Calvinists deny is that God compels someone against his will.
Sure, it can be denied all day long, but that is exactly the logical conclusion of RT theology. In fact, some clearly state that unless God regenerates people, no one would believe. So, that means that no one wants to believe until regeneration. How is that NOT against one's will?

God does not imprison a contrary will and thrust it into salvation. God changes it. God does indeed change the evil stony human heart.
Sounds like double speak. Now you've just changed some wording to make it sound better than it is. No one says anything about an "imprisoning a contrary will" in the first place. So the use of it here is disingenuous.

Let's just stick with the terms that have been used. The RT claim is that God changes a contrary heart of "stone". So that the person will believe. Which by definition would be against their will. RT can't have it both ways.

If God changes a heart (regeneration) in order for the person to believe, then He is most certainly acting against that person's will. Definitely.

If the will were willing it would not need a change to it.
So basically, this is an admission that God acts against a person's will.

Scripture also says that is nobody, Isaiah 59. And nobody without His Spirit, John 6:65.
What is the context for your statement here? What does "that is nobody" reer to regarding either verse?

Question: does God honor someone who turns to Him with wrong motives?
No, but what does this have to do with Isa 55:7? Nothing.

God does honor those who turn from their evil.

I just reviewed Isa 59 and didn't find anything clearly stating that nobody turns to the Lord. The chapter is about the sins of Israel.

Please direct me to any verse or verses that states that no one turns to the Lord.
 
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EmSw

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Extra, this is what I have been saying all along. Sin is deadly to saint or sinner. Many Christians take sin lightly, when in fact, sin is man's greatest enemy. Sin will deceive man into thinking he can take a few verses and stake his life on them; he will not seek the whole counsel of God.

You have given many verses which warn man of sin and its consequences. Yet, many do not want to hear them, much less heed them. If man loves the delights of sin, he will find any excuse to stay there, even try to find verses to appease his master (sin). And many, from the evil of their heart, will ridicule and mock those who preach against their master.
 
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extraordinary

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Extra, this is what I have been saying all along. Sin is deadly to saint or sinner.
Hey, our very own Emster is a pretty cool dude after all. Praise God.
Now you're going to have to explain to everyone what "deadly" means.

.
 
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heymikey80

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You missed the distinction, and then called it doublespeak, which it is not. It is a distinction with a difference. I could select similar words characterizing your dismissal. I choose to defer those words out of consideration.

Many claim it is wrong for God to fatalistically force someone's actions contrary to his will, and Calvinism agrees that opposing force against conscience is wrong. Many have called Calvinism fatalism on mispresumption that it is what Calvinism states. Look it up. It is no disingenuous point to make. Calvinism revolts at this characterization. Calvinism is deterministic. It is not fatalistic. The clear difference in Calvinism is that the Spirit of God changes the heart to a new heart of flesh, which turns in belief toward God.

Without such, some can change their own hearts to believe. And that doesn't square with 1 John 5:1, or John 1:12-13, or John 6:65.

And while I would expect your view of this to be only for Christians willingly submitting, keep in mind that any change of will is "against" the will in your view, so even this would be wrong: "it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Pp 2:13
 
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heymikey80

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God does honor those who turn from their evil.
God does not honor those who turn from evil, only to turn to another evil.

I just reviewed Isa 59 and didn't find anything clearly stating that nobody turns to the Lord. The chapter is about the sins of Israel.

Please direct me to any verse or verses that states that no one turns to the Lord.
It is remarkable you would force Is 59 into a statement about the Jewish people. Are Gentiles better than they? No.

Before you get excited about my saying the above, though, you might want to review Paul saying the same thing. And citing from Is 59.

Rom 3:9-19.
 
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extraordinary

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There are no verses teaching that eternal life can be lost.
There are no verses that teach that being obedient gains eternal life.
You have seen all of them countless times here on this forum!

There are all kinds of UNBELIEF.
Even BACs have unbelief in some spiritual Truths.
.
 
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