Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

[FreeGrace2]

No one is "owed a chance" for Salvation. We all deserve hell for our sins. And unless the Lord changes the heart, even if all of our sins were blotted out, we would continue on sinning because that is our nature.

People really need to eliminate this idea of man being "owed a chance". It's not biblical.

Why are you bringing up this notion of being "owed a chance"?? Where did that come from? Certainly NOT from my OP or anything I've posted.

I would appreciate if you would answer these 6 simple and quick questions.

#1 Did Christ die ONLY for the elect?
#2 Did God choose for heaven ONLY the elect?
#3 Do ONLY the elect go to heaven?
#4 Did Christ NOT die for the non-elect?
#5 Did God NOT choose for heaven the non-elect?
#5 Do ONLY the non-elect go to hell?
#6 Are the elect and non-elect both sinners and both deserve hell?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Indeed, God owes us nothing. But, He is love, and He is not willing that any should perish.

Amen that!

 

[FreeGrace2]

He is also Holy, Just, Merciful, Wrathful, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Soverign, and Alpha and Omega. No one of His attributes is any more important, or less important than any other. He is not willing that any of His Elect should perish.

Error Alert!!!*** The Bible does NOT that God is not willing that "any of His elect should perish", but that "not any should perish". You commit eisegesis when you add words to the text that aren't there.

(You must read that verse in context, it's not saying what you obviously think it does). Jesus Christ obtained actual salvation for those He died for, not potential salvation, or a chance at salvation.

I really don't know where you get your ideas from, but not from me. I've NEVER said anything about "potential" or "chance", so why are you bringing up what is totally irrelevant to my OP.

The question is this: can you refute my charge, or not?

Can you answer these questions?

#1 Did Christ die ONLY for the elect?
#2 Did God choose for heaven ONLY the elect?
#3 Do ONLY the elect go to heaven?
#4 Did Christ NOT die for the non-elect?
#5 Did God NOT choose for heaven the non-elect?
#5 Do ONLY the non-elect go to hell?
#6 Are the elect and non-elect both sinners and both deserve hell?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Or maybe We're not all saved, but we hold the trump card as FG2 suggests - That God only offers salvation and it's up to us whether we want to be saved or not?

Where do you get the idea that I have suggested this so-called "trump card"? Can you show me any specific post where you got that idea from? Please?

In fact, if you want to play "cards", then you have to know that God holds "all the cards". Do you disagree? You'd better not.

And one of the "card" that He holds is this, from 1 Cor 1:21-
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Would you answer these six simple questions?

#1 Did Christ die ONLY for the elect?
#2 Did God choose for heaven ONLY the elect?
#3 Do ONLY the elect go to heaven?
#4 Did Christ NOT die for the non-elect?
#5 Did God NOT choose for heaven the non-elect?
#5 Do ONLY the non-elect go to hell?
#6 Are the elect and non-elect both sinners and both deserve hell?

Thanks.

 

[Hammster]

Can you answer these questions?

#1 Did Christ die ONLY for the elect?
#2 Did God choose for heaven ONLY the elect?
#3 Do ONLY the elect go to heaven?
#4 Did Christ NOT die for the non-elect?
#5 Did God NOT choose for heaven the non-elect?
#5 Do ONLY the non-elect go to hell?
#6 Are the elect and non-elect both sinners and both deserve hell?

Ah, what the heck.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. Yes

 

[FreeGrace2]

If God hadn't decided to intervene, all of us would be destined to Hell.

It's exactly the Calvinist version of His "intervention" that I'm taking issue with, and so far, no one has brought forth a refutation of my charge.

I would appreciate if you would answer these 6 simple questions.

#1 Did Christ die ONLY for the elect?
#2 Did God choose for heaven ONLY the elect?
#3 Do ONLY the elect go to heaven?
#4 Did Christ NOT die for the non-elect?
#5 Did God NOT choose for heaven the non-elect?
#5 Do ONLY the non-elect go to hell?
#6 Are the elect and non-elect both sinners and both deserve hell?

Thanks.

That's what our sin deserves. That's biblical. God chose to save some.

That's EXACTLY my point!! Every sinner, elect and non-elect (your terms) deserve hell. But, to the point, God chose to save ONLY the elect. That gives the hell dwellers an excuse for being there. Are you comfortable with that?

Seems a number of Calvinists are bristling quite a bit from my OP.

That's His prerogative. Just because He chose to save some does not make Him obligated to save all.

Why did you bring up God's "obligation" when that is not relevant to my OP?

Per my OP, can you refute my charge, and leave "obligation", "potential" and "chance" out of your reply. Thanks.

If you can't refute my OP, you still have 6 simple questions to answer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ah, what the heck.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. Yes

Ah, a brave soul indeed. Of course each question is a "yes" answer according to Calvinism. So I hope that no one ever tells me that I am either misrepresenting Calvinism or that I don't understand it. These 6 questions clearly indicate that I do.

Now, having answered in the affirmative to every question, what is the ONLY DIFFERENCE between the elect and non-elect?

 

[Hammster]

It's exactly the Calvinist version of His "intervention" that I'm taking issue with, and so far, no one has brought forth a refutation of my charge.

I would appreciate if you would answer these 6 simple questions.

#1 Did Christ die ONLY for the elect?
#2 Did God choose for heaven ONLY the elect?
#3 Do ONLY the elect go to heaven?
#4 Did Christ NOT die for the non-elect?
#5 Did God NOT choose for heaven the non-elect?
#5 Do ONLY the non-elect go to hell?
#6 Are the elect and non-elect both sinners and both deserve hell?

Thanks.


That's EXACTLY my point!! Every sinner, elect and non-elect (your terms) deserve hell. But, to the point, God chose to save ONLY the elect. That gives the hell dwellers an excuse for being there. Are you comfortable with that?

Seems a number of Calvinists are bristling quite a bit from my OP.


Why did you bring up God's "obligation" when that is not relevant to my OP?

Per my OP, can you refute my charge, and leave "obligation", "potential" and "chance" out of your reply. Thanks.

If you can't refute my OP, you still have 6 simple questions to answer.

How is "I'm not elect" an excuse?

 

[nobdysfool]

Why are you bringing up this notion of being "owed a chance"?? Where did that come from? Certainly NOT from my OP or anything I've posted.

Contrary to what you apparently think, this is not all about you. I was speaking to someone else, which, if you had taken the time to actually look instead of knee-jerk reacting, you would have seen it, and you wouldn't be asking me such a ridiculous question, and subtly accusing me of trying to derail the thread. Pay Attention!

I would appreciate if you would answer these 6 simple and quick questions.

#1 Did Christ die ONLY for the elect?
#2 Did God choose for heaven ONLY the elect?
#3 Do ONLY the elect go to heaven?
#4 Did Christ NOT die for the non-elect?
#5 Did God NOT choose for heaven the non-elect?
#5 Do ONLY the non-elect go to hell?
#6 Are the elect and non-elect both sinners and both deserve hell?

I'm not playing your game. But, since you seem to think you have some sort of trump card, And you're going to drag this stinking red herring across every post, I'll provide what I believe to be the correct answers.

1. Christ died for those he intended to save, which were those the Father had given Him, and are identified as the elect.

2. Only those who have been born into the Family of God will be with Him in Heaven.

3. Only those who have been born into the Family of God will be with Him in Heaven.

4. Christ died and rose again, for those whom He intended to save, which were those the Father gave Him, and are identified as the elect.

5. If one is not of the elect, they aren't saved, so they will be sent to hell, for their sins.

6. Yes. Eph 2:4-6 ESV But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- (6) and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

I will point out that Paul was speaking to Believers, when he said "us" and "we".

Now, embedded in your questions are misconceptions about Calvinism. No surprise there, you have shown a singularly stubborn refusal to be corrected about those misconceptions, because if you were, your entire little "trump card" hotel would collapse of it's own accord.

I have answered the question according to what I believe the Scriptures teach. I know they weren't the answers you were looking for, and I can't help that. Sorry about your luck....

So, stop your whining about the questions and about the non-existent and irrelevant "excuse". It's a non-starter, because it makes ABSOLUTELY no difference to anyone inside or outside of hell.

 

[Hammster]

Ah, a brave soul indeed. Of course each question is a "yes" answer according to Calvinism. So I hope that no one ever tells me that I am either misrepresenting Calvinism or that I don't understand it. These 6 questions clearly indicate that I do.

Now, having answered in the affirmative to every question, what is the ONLY DIFFERENCE between the elect and non-elect?

One is elect and one isn't.

 

[Don Maurer]

Ah, a brave soul indeed. Of course each question is a "yes" answer according to Calvinism. So I hope that no one ever tells me that I am either misrepresenting Calvinism or that I don't understand it. These 6 questions clearly indicate that I do.

Now, having answered in the affirmative to every question, what is the ONLY DIFFERENCE between the elect and non-elect?

LOL, what astonishing assumptions. It is painfully obvious you are ignorant of most of Calvinism.

 

[Hammster]

LOL, what astonishing assumptions. It is painfully obvious you are ignorant of most of Calvinism.

Painfully is right.

 

[Don Maurer]

I've dodged nothing.

FreeGrace2, when you refuse to answer questions, that is a dodge.

You claim not to be Arminian, yet several of the people on this thread notice you agree with all 5 points of the Remonstrance. You have yet to explain where you disagree with the Remonstrance. That is a dodge.

When you refuse to answer questions on the similarity of your position and that of the Pharaoh, that is a dodge.

FreeGrace2, you have dodged nearly everything important and answered nearly nothing.

Hopefully, you won't dodge any questions, either.

Can you answer these 6 short questions?

(Answers inserted by Don Maurer)
#1 Did Christ die ONLY for the elect?--------Yes
#2 Did God choose for heaven ONLY the elect?------------Yes
#3 Do ONLY the elect go to heaven?--------------Yes
#4 Did Christ NOT die for the non-elect?-----------Correct
#5 Did God NOT choose for heaven the non-elect?--------Correct
#5 Do ONLY the non-elect go to hell?----------------Yes
#6 Are the elect and non-elect both sinners and both deserve hell?-----Absolutely


Why? Because it is totally TRUE. And that forms the basis for his excuse for being a hell dweller. Thanks for supporting my charge.

This was already answered by several people, and you continue to dodge the answers. Your statement assumes that the person in hell has a valid complaint. Then why would you not assume that Pharaoh had a valid complain in Roman 9:19 (do you need page numbers in your bible here?)

All this missed the whole point. The ONLY reason for anyone to be in hell is because, according to Calvinism, Christ didn't die for them. That is the only reason. Sin has nothing to do with anything for eternity.

Well, somewhere some time, some deluded person who does not understand Calvinism and claims to be a Calvinist might have said your above quote. I doubt it, my guess is you just made that up and claim "Well Calvinists say." Arminians like you do that all the time. Heard it before. Its called a straw man.

You've taken the idea of presupposition to outright assumption. I have no presuppositions. My charge is clear and simple. I hope that you do answer the 6 simple questions. Maybe that will reveal to the truth.

The most dangerous presuppositions are the one we do not recognize, and you are full of them.

You are way off track here. In fact, Calvinism GIVES an excuse for the hell dwellers. Seems you just don't want to face that fact. Is that right?

Actually its just the opposite. Calvinism answers the excuse people who are in hell give. People like Pharaoh....
Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
Romans 9:19 (do you need the page number?)


Not at all. Can you refute my charge or not? This sidestepping smokescreen about "chances" is amusing, at best. Let's get back to my charge. If I'm wrong about Calvinism, it should be easy to refute my charge. So far, no one has. Lots of posts, with lots of sidestepping and smokescreens, but no refutation.


This isn't about Pharaoh. In fact, Ex 9:15,16 gives us the clear reason why Pharaoh was even still alive. God had preserved him longer in order to show him His power and glory. Which He did before took him out.

Please answer the 6 questions.[/quote]
It is about Pharaoh. It is so painfully clear that you are making the same objection as Pharaoh is in Romans 9:19. Most other participants on this thread recognize it too ((except you)).

Your ignorance of that passage is demonstrated that you say verse 15-16 gives a clear reason why Pharaoh was even still alive. The passage has nothing to do with Pharaoh dieing physically, it has to do with his spiritual death and hardening of heart, but not his physical death. If you understood Romans 9, you would have known that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How is "I'm not elect" an excuse?

That is really a funny question! How is it NOT an excuse?

Only the elect go to heaven. The not chosen for heaven ones have an excuse: Christ didn't die for me.

Can you explain what difference there might be between the elect and non-elect, such that the elect end up in heaven, while the non-elect end up in hell?

 

[Hammster]

That is really a funny question! How is it NOT an excuse?

Only the elect go to heaven. The not chosen for heaven ones have an excuse: Christ didn't die for me.

Can you explain what difference there might be between the elect and non-elect, such that the elect end up in heaven, while the non-elect end up in hell?

Why is "Christ didn't die for me" an excuse? Did they not reject Christ of their own free will?

 

[Don Maurer]

Can you explain what difference there might be between the elect and non-elect, such that the elect end up in heaven, while the non-elect end up in hell?

Wow, such a question shows a huge failure to understand Calvinism. Anyone who knows Calvinism would know how a Calvinist would answer this one. This one makes me marvel.

There is no difference between the elect and the non-elect, the difference is in the potters sovereign hands.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Contrary to what you apparently think, this is not all about you. I was speaking to someone else, which, if you had taken the time to actually look instead of knee-jerk reacting, you would have seen it, and you wouldn't be asking me such a ridiculous question, and subtly accusing me of trying to derail the thread. Pay Attention!

Gimme a break! LOL Since you never address who yer talking to, how could I know?

I'm not playing your game.

OK, so 6 simple questions are a "game" to you, huh. I think you know the outcome of those questions, and you don't like it, huh.

But, since you seem to think you have some sort of trump card, And you're going to drag this stinking red herring across every post, I'll provide what I believe to be the correct answers.

1. Christ died for those he intended to save, which were those the Father had given Him, and are identified as the elect.

2. Only those who have been born into the Family of God will be with Him in Heaven.

3. Only those who have been born into the Family of God will be with Him in Heaven.

4. Christ died and rose again, for those whom He intended to save, which were those the Father gave Him, and are identified as the elect.

5. If one is not of the elect, they aren't saved, so they will be sent to hell, for their sins.

6. Yes. Eph 2:4-6 ESV But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- (6) and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Interesting. 6 simple questions that require only a yes or no answer, and you can only come up with one "yes" and 5 "explainations". What's wrong with either a yes or no to #1-5? Were any of them not clear enough for you? Hammster didn't have any problem answering all 6 of them with a "yes".

I will point out that Paul was speaking to Believers, when he said "us" and "we".

How 'bout that! And Paul was speaking to crowds of those who had never heard the Name of Christ (Rom 15:20) when he reminded the Corinthian church of what he had preachED to them and they had believED. What did he preach to crowds of unbelievers: "Christ died for OUR sins". He WASN'T addressing any believers when he came to preach in Corinth.

Now, embedded in your questions are misconceptions about Calvinism. No surprise there, you have shown a singularly stubborn refusal to be corrected about those misconceptions, because if you were, your entire little "trump card" hotel would collapse of it's own accord.

Istead of more whining, why didn't you just point out what you consider to be a misconception "embedded" in my questions. Again, hammster had no problem giving me straight answers.

I have answered the question according to what I believe the Scriptures teach. I know they weren't the answers you were looking for, and I can't help that. Sorry about your luck....

What does "luck" have to do with anything?

So, stop your whining about the questions and about the non-existent and irrelevant "excuse".

It's a non-starter, because it makes ABSOLUTELY no difference to anyone inside or outside of hell.

The answers to my question PROVE that Calvinism provides an excuse for the hell dwellers. The ONLY reason there are hell dwellers is because Christ DIDN'T die for them, because according to Calvinism, all for whom Christ did die, go to heaven.

Plain and simple. If Christ died for you, you have a ticket to heaven. If He didn't, you don't.

It is clear that my charge against Calvinist bothers you very much. I suggest you mull that over and figure out why it bothers you so much.

btw, it should bother you very much.

 

[FreeGrace2]

One is elect and one isn't.

And, so, all the non-elect HAVE an excuse for being hell dwellers. Thanks for making my point!

 

[FreeGrace2]

LOL, what astonishing assumptions. It is painfully obvious you are ignorant of most of Calvinism.

Oh, really? Can you demonstrate this "ignorance" of mine from the 6 questions that hammster had no trouble answering?

I look forward to your answer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why is "Christ didn't die for me" an excuse? Did they not reject Christ of their own free will?

Really? Really??? In your own system, God already chose who He would save without any reason whatsoever, and had His Son die ONLY for them, which is a ticket straight to heaven.

In your theology, there isn't really a free choice to either accept or reject the gospel, since God made the choice of who to save from eternity past.

So your question is disingenuous.

And my OP stands; Calvinism provides an excuse for the hell dwellers.

otoh, my view is that there is NO excuse, for human beings really do have the freedom to either accept or reject the free gift of eternal life.