Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

[FreeGrace2]

Calvinism believes that Christ died only for some, they call the "elect", and that is because God chose (elected) them for salvation. As such, all the elect receive the free gift of eternal life and will live with God for eternity.

This gives those in hell an excuse for being there; that Christ did not die for them. Calvinists say that they are there because of their sins. But that begs the question: Christ died for the sins of ONLY the elect, and therefore, go to heaven. The so-called non-elect, for whom Christ didn't die, pay for their sins by themselves.

And those who go to heaven still sinned, but Christ paid for their sins. They are in heaven BECAUSE Christ paid for their sins.

The only difference between sinner human beings in heaven and sinner human beings in hell is that Christ paid for the sins of those in heaven. Again, that provides an excuse for all in hell. No one paid for their sins.

It is possible for a Calvinist to provide a succinct explanation of how their theology of limited atonement and unconditional election does NOT provide any excuse for those in hell? Because I just don't see it.

Thanks.

 

[Hammster]

People are in hell for sin, not because their sin wasn't atoned for.

Pretty succinct.

 

[FreeGrace2]

People are in hell for sin, not because their sin wasn't atoned for.

Pretty succinct.

Not sure what succint has to do with your answer. You completely dodged the obvious issue of the excuse that Calvinism provides those in hell.

I'll show it a different way, that may help you see it.

All men are sinners. Rom 3:9,23.

All sinners in heaven are there because Christ died for their sins.

All sinners in hell are there because christ DIDN'T die for their sins.

Is that more clear?

How is that NOT an excuse for the roasters in hell? Your answer totally ignores the fact that your theology says that those who's sins are atoned for will go to heaven.

That means that those who's sins aren't atoned for go to hell. The difference is that those who Christ died for go to heaven, and everyone else goes to hell.

The issue is NOT sin because all men are sinners. But the difference between heaven and hell is that God chose to save some sinners, but not others. That is the excuse.

They will have every right to say that they are in hell BECAUSE Christ didn't die for their sins, if that's the only criteria for the difference, and in Calvinism, that IS the only difference.

My view is that since Christ died for everyone, no one has any excuse for not receiving the free gift of eternal life that Christ purchased for everyone.

Please explain how Calvinism doesn't provide an excuse, and mine does.

 

[Hammster]

You asked why people are in Hell, not heaven. They are in hell because they are sinners.

 

[Hammster]

Plus, you're thinking is wrong. People aren't in heaven because their sins were atoned for. They are in Heaven because God showed mercy on them. He had decided to save some. That came first. In order to do that, He needed to deal with the sin issue. That's where the atonement comes in. It dealt with the sin issue.

But just because God chose to save some doesn't mean that He was obligated to do so. And since He wasn't, He also wasn't obligated to atone for anyone's sins. But He did for the elect. The rest still get what they deserve.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You asked why people are in Hell, not heaven. They are in hell because they are sinners.

Irrelevant. People who are in heaven are sinners. Are you suggesting that there is some innate difference between those in heaven and those in hell?

Please specify as to what that might be.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Plus, you're thinking is wrong. People aren't in heaven because their sins were atoned for. They are in Heaven because God showed mercy on them. He had decided to save some. That came first. In order to do that, He needed to deal with the sin issue. That's where the atonement comes in. It dealt with the sin issue.

Your answer still proves my charge that Calvinism provides an excuse for all the hell dwellers.

God showed mercy only to the elect. That's an excuse for the hell dwellers.
God decided so same some. That's an excuse for the hell dwellers.
God dealt with the sin issue ONLY for the elect. That's an excuse for the hell dwellers.

I'm amazed that you don't see this. Maybe you just don't want to. But it's there and quite obvious. Glaringly.

But just because God chose to save some doesn't mean that He was obligated to do so.

I never said anything about obligation, so why do you bring this smokescreen diversion to the discussion? Please stick with the OP.

And since He wasn't, He also wasn't obligated to atone for anyone's sins. But He did for the elect. The rest still get what they deserve.

But everyone deserves to dwell in hell, so again, you have not proven that Calvinism doesn't provide an excuse for the hell dwellers.

In fact, you affirmed my charge by all that you say. In fact, there is NOTHING you can say to defend against my charge.

You might as well just face and accept the fact that Calvinism provides an excuse for all hell dwellers.

But the Bible gives NO ONE any excuse for anything. We all deserve hell, yes. But God provided the solution to the sin problem for everyone, which is why no one has an excuse.

In Calvinism the ONLY reason some sinners go to heaven and the rest go to hell is because God chose ONLY some for heaven.

One could say that the "elect" were born with a ticket to heaven in their hand, and the "non-elect" were born with a ticket to hell in their hand.

And all decided before the foundation of the world.

And you deny being fatalists. Yeah, sure.

 

[Hammster]

Your answer still proves my charge that Calvinism provides an excuse for all the hell dwellers.

God showed mercy only to the elect. That's an excuse for the hell dwellers.
God decided so same some. That's an excuse for the hell dwellers.
God dealt with the sin issue ONLY for the elect. That's an excuse for the hell dwellers.

Those are your assertions. They are in hell because they are sinners, not because someone else is in heaven.

I'm amazed that you don't see this. Maybe you just don't want to. But it's there and quite obvious. Glaringly.

i see that you misunderstand the argument. That's all I see.

I never said anything about obligation, so why do you bring this smokescreen diversion to the discussion? Please stick with the OP.

It's not a smokescreen. It's part of my argument.

But everyone deserves to dwell in hell, so again, you have not proven that Calvinism doesn't provide an excuse for the hell dwellers.

They are in hell because of sin. Just because God has mercy on others doesn't negate this.

In fact, you affirmed my charge by all that you say. In fact, there is NOTHING you can say to defend against my charge.

Well, there's nothing I can say that you'll accept. Let's be honest about that.

You might as well just face and accept the fact that Calvinism provides an excuse for all hell dwellers.

There you go with your normal MO of always declaring victory.

But the Bible gives NO ONE any excuse for anything. We all deserve hell, yes. But God provided the solution to the sin problem for everyone, which is why no one has an excuse.

All they have to do is believe the gospel.

In Calvinism the ONLY reason some sinners go to heaven and the rest go to hell is because God chose ONLY some for heaven.

No, that's the reason some go to heaven. The reason others go to hell is because they are unrepentant sinners.

One could say that the "elect" were born with a ticket to heaven in their hand, and the "non-elect" were born with a ticket to hell in their hand.

And if Hod knows that someone won't believe, all of the preaching in the world won't change that.

And all decided before the foundation of the world.

Yep.

And you deny being fatalists. Yeah, sure.

And so do you. But you want to talk about God being omniscient on one hand, but then imply that there's something that can be done to change what God knows will happen on the other.

But I digress. I've answered your OP. Repeatedly.

 

[AndOne]

It is possible for a Calvinist to provide a succinct explanation of how their theology of limited atonement and unconditional election does NOT provide any excuse for those in hell? Because I just don't see it.

I always defer to the apostle Paul's response to this question (or variations of it) whenever it gets asked. See Romans 9:19-23. Your issue is not with Calvinists but with the New Testament writers. Something to think about....

 

[xxProdigalxx]

Every single denomination has holes in it. Denominations are mans views of what the Word says. That's why I'd say, stop following single denominations. Go and listen to what they say and then test the scriptures say and take whats true from the denomination and leave whats false. Calvinist churches have really good teachings along with arminian churches, they also have really good teachings but neither of these denominations are 100%. No denomination is 100% right. Even the "Non-Denominations" are a little messed up.

Acts 17:11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[AndOne]

Every single denomination has holes in it. Denominations are mans views of what the Word says. That's why I'd say, stop following single denominations. Go and listen to what they say and then test the scriptures say and take whats true from the denomination and leave whats false. Calvinist churches have really good teachings along with arminian churches, they also have really good teachings but neither of these denominations are 100%. No denomination is 100% right. Even the "Non-Denominations" are a little messed up.

Acts 17:11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Calvinism is not a denomination.

 

[Hammster]

Every single denomination has holes in it. Denominations are mans views of what the Word says. That's why I'd say, stop following single denominations. Go and listen to what they say and then test the scriptures say and take whats true from the denomination and leave whats false. Calvinist churches have really good teachings along with arminian churches, they also have really good teachings but neither of these denominations are 100%. No denomination is 100% right. Even the "Non-Denominations" are a little messed up.

Acts 17:11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with the OP.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Those are your assertions. They are in hell because they are sinners, not because someone else is in heaven.
i see that you misunderstand the argument. That's all I see.

You're not "seeing" very far, then. They are not assertions. They are FACTS. And your answer again just ignores the issue. I never said anyone was in hell because someone else was in heaven. This ain't no teeter totter.

Here is what said, you didn't "see" -

Your answer still proves my charge that Calvinism provides an excuse for all the hell dwellers.

God showed mercy only to the elect. That's an excuse for the hell dwellers.
God decided so same some. That's an excuse for the hell dwellers.
God dealt with the sin issue ONLY for the elect. That's an excuse for the hell dwellers.

[/QUOTE]It's not a smokescreen. It's part of my argument. [/QUOTE]
What are you arguing about? Your theology has been charged with providing an excuse for the hell dwellers. And you brought up God's "obligation" as if it was my view that things God is obligated.

Here is what you initially said:

But just because God chose to save some doesn't mean that He was obligated to do so.

Of course God isn't obligated. So your "defense" that obligation is part of your argument just doesn't wash.

They are in hell because of sin. Just because God has mercy on others doesn't negate this.

Again, you are missing the point: they are in hell because they weren't chosen is why they are in hell. And that IS their excuse. They weren't chosen, as the other sinners were.

Well, there's nothing I can say that you'll accept. Let's be honest about that.

Sure. Let's be honest. And you can start with the FACT that Calvinism provides an excuse for the hell dwellers. They are there because didn't choose those sinners. He chose other sinners. Simple as that.

There you go with your normal MO of always declaring victory.
All they have to do is believe the gospel.

How can one of the so-called "non-elect" believe the gospel, when Christ didn't die for them, and God didn't choose them for salvation? Why won't you answer this? This IS the issue.

No, that's the reason some go to heaven. The reason others go to hell is because they are unrepentant sinners.

Here is what I said:

In Calvinism the ONLY reason some sinners go to heaven and the rest go to hell is because God chose ONLY some for heaven.

So, basically, those going to heaven were because chose for ONLY them to go, while the rest didn't repent????? Are you kidding me????? Where's your Calvinism now? They ONLY reason the non-elect are unrepentant is because God NEVER regenerated them so they could, according to your own theology. So again, you keep proving my charge. They HAVE an excuse because God chose NOT to regenerate them, which would allow them to repent.

You have contradicted yourself. You admit HOW the elect get to heaven, which is by God's election. But then you say that "all they have to do is believe the gospel" ore be "repentant" and they will get in.

But HOW so, if Christ didn't die for them? You CANNOT answer that question.

And if Hod knows that someone won't believe, all of the preaching in the world won't change that.

The doctrine of election according to Calvinism is that God ultimately chooses who will believe, so your comment here is disingenuous at best.

Yep.

Right, all of God's choices for both heaven and hell were decided before the foundation of the world. And BECAUSE God chose not to choose your so-called non-elect, they HAVE an excuse for being a hell dweller.

And so do you.

Of course I deny being a fatalist. But your theology is fatalism 101.

But you want to talk about God being omniscient on one hand, but then imply that there's something that can be done to change what God knows will happen on the other.

No I never have said that. I have said God is omniscient and knows who will and won't believe, which is different than Calvinism's claim that God chose who gets to heaven and who gets to hell without any conditions. iow, your so-called elect were born with a ticket to heaven in their hand, and the non-elect were born with a ticket to hell in their hand. Bummer.

What is correct is that since God already knows who will and won't believe, that IS in stone. But that is far different than Calvinism's claim that God chooses who will believe, regenerates the chosen ones so they can believe, and by NOT choosing the non-elect, they go straight to hell, with a HUGE excuse for being there.

But I digress. I've answered your OP. Repeatedly.

You have totally DODGED my charge to you. Calvinism DOES provide an excuse for the hell dwellers, and you won't admit it. But the truth hurts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I always defer to the apostle Paul's response to this question (or variations of it) whenever it gets asked. See Romans 9:19-23. Your issue is not with Calvinists but with the New Testament writers. Something to think about....

I have thought long and hard about it, which is WHY I created this thread. And your post doesn't get Calvinism off the hook, and is actually irrelevant to the OP.

So, you defer to irrelevancy.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Every single denomination has holes in it. Denominations are mans views of what the Word says. That's why I'd say, stop following single denominations. Go and listen to what they say and then test the scriptures say and take whats true from the denomination and leave whats false. Calvinist churches have really good teachings along with arminian churches, they also have really good teachings but neither of these denominations are 100%. No denomination is 100% right. Even the "Non-Denominations" are a little messed up. [/QUOTE[]
Where in the world did this come from? Why did you bring up denominations? I haven't been in one for many decades, but rather non-denominational churches. Your assumptions are only presumptions.

Acts 17:11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

This is exactly what I do. btw, do you agree or disagree with the OP?

If not, can you do better than hammster?

 

[Hammster]

The fact that you aren't convinced that people are in hell solely for their sin is irrelevant. It's your erroneous argument that they are in hell because they aren't elect. There's no way you can make the claim if you understood Calvinism.

So, the challenge has been met.

Good day.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The fact that you aren't convinced that people are in hell solely for their sin is irrelevant.

That point IS irrelevant, because those hell dwellers WEREN'T chosen unconditionally for salvation, remember? That IS the issue, not sin.

All God chose for salvation ARE sinners, too. The difference is that Christ died for their sins, unlike the hell dwellers.

It's your erroneous argument that they are in hell because they aren't elect.

Oh, really??? That IS the whole issue. They weren't chosen for heaven in your theology. THAT is an excuse. Whether you face it or not.

There's no way you can make the claim if you understood Calvinism.

OK, I'll once again spell it out for you. And you can correct any point I misstate:
#1 God chose certain ones (the elect) for salvation unconditionally
#2 Christ died ONLY for the elect.
#3 God regenerates the elect so they will believe the gospel
#4 None of the elect can end up in hell
#5 None of the non-elect can end up in heaven

So, what is the ONLY difference between the elect and non-elect in Calvinism? One group was chosen for heaven, while the other group was chosen to dwell in hell.

I've just given you 5 points (not tulip) of Calvinism. Please correct any point that is incorrect.

So, the challenge has been met.

Not hardly. A claim to that end doesn't equal that end.

 

[nobdysfool]

Of what use would that so-called "excuse" be? Why keep harping on this? You certainly cannot be thinking that you have found some sort of "magic key" to defeating Calvinism...can you?

I think you're just arguing for the sake of argument, because you just can't abide a Calvinist thinking and believing something you don't.

Here's a hint: log, speck. Get that right, and lots of things come into proper perspective.

 

[AndOne]

I have thought long and hard about it, which is WHY I created this thread. And your post doesn't get Calvinism off the hook, and is actually irrelevant to the OP.

So, you defer to irrelevancy.

Sorry - but I don't consider anything that Paul wrote irrelevant.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Of what use would that so-called "excuse" be? Why keep harping on this?

To point out the obvious fallacy of the Calvinist claim that Christ didn't die for everyone. Instead of your question, can you refute my claim that Calvinism provides an excuse for the hell dwellers? Or are you just frustrated that you know you can't, so you ask a question to change the subject?

You certainly cannot be thinking that you have found some sort of "magic key" to defeating Calvinism...can you?

Truth always trumps false claims. Can you refute my claim that Calvinism provides an excuse for hell dwellers? Or not?

I think you're just arguing for the sake of argument, because you just can't abide a Calvinist thinking and believing something you don't.

I can think whatever you wish to think. And I certainly CAN'T abide a Calvinist thinking that cannot be proven from Scripture.

Here's a hint: log, speck. Get that right, and lots of things come into proper perspective.

I have got it right. Calvinism cannot prove its claims, plain and simple.

Are you uncomfortable with the fact that your theology that provides an excuse for the hell dwellers? Or not?

The excuse for hell dwellers demonstrates the absurdity of your position that Christ didn't die for all, but only some.

Biblical theology says that no one has any excuse.