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Wow, what a hornet's nest has been stirred up. All because no one can refute what was written about Jesus and what He said about His cross.
Its not the scriptures you quoted that is the problem, it's your faulty understanding of them, and your cherry picking the ones you like and disregarding the ones you don't like.
It's been refuted for 2000 years.
Paul has you all so fixated on the cross, it's not funny.
2 Peter 3:14-15 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
Learn what the K'tuvim, or scriptures, or writings are, and then get back to me.
I don't trust you, that's for sure.
He must have really hit a nerve.
Speaking of hitting nerves...
Yes?
...quite a few were disturbed today. I am wondering why no one is responding to what was written.
And by the way, what do you think about Paul changing David's word in Psalms to the exact opposite (from received to gave)?
I don't think it is allowed to call anyone a heretic griff. I wonder what the moderators would think. Let's ask Hammster to see if calling others heretics is okay and proper on this forum.
Paul has you all so fixated on the cross, it's not funny.
What was it for - salvation?
Many times during Jesus' earthly ministry people were saved without the cross.
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Luke 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, this day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
John 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
In the above passage, Jesus said it was on account of the things He said, that we might be saved. Not once did Jesus say he was going to the cross to save people.
What was the cross for - forgiveness of sins?
Many times Jesus spoke about forgiveness of sins and it had nothing to do with the cross.
Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Luke 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Forgiveness of sins is actuated through genuine repentance, not the cross. Who brought this new and strange teaching that forgiveness and salvation were accomplished on the cross?
We have seen salvation and forgiveness for the people without even one mention of the cross. People were saved and forgiven long before the cross.
However, Jesus did mention the cross, but it had nothing to do with His death. In fact, He told us to take up OUR cross and follow Him. What would be OUR cross? Why would we need to take up OUR cross if His cross was sufficient?
The cross symbolizes one thing - death. It was by the cross the Savior died and laid down His natural body He received from Mary, in order for Him to put on the glorified body.
Jesus says in John 16 -
5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, whither goest thou?
6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
It was expedient for Him to go away, that is leave this natural earth, for then the Comforter will come. If Jesus did not depart, then the Comforter would not have come. To depart this natural earth, it was necessary for Jesus to rid Himself of the natural body he received from Mary.
I can say this, if Jesus were so concerned about the cross and its salvation and forgiveness aspects, John 16 would have been a great place to mention it to His disciples.
His death could have been a number ways, but He allowed it to be by a cross. I wonder if Jesus was hung by a rope, if the church today would be hanging ropes on the walls and around their necks. Or if He were stoned, would everyone be glorying in a rock.
Also, the cross was the greatest temptation Jesus faced, and He overcame it. Death could not bring Him to sin, nor did it have any power over Him.
I would appreciate it if you fellas could show me otherwise from Jesus' own lips what the cross was for. It was for death, just as our crosses are for our own death. It is by our own cross that we lose our life. However, it is when we lose our life on our cross for Jesus' sake, that we find it.
Just as Jesus says in Matthew 16,
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Oh Griff, I'm still here!
AskSeekKnock:
Christ's death on the cross was a literal atonement of our (believer's) sins. You say people before the cross were saved, you are correct, but you are wrong in how you think they were saved.
The cross not only covers all of God's people's future sins, but also all of their past sins. The cross is retroactive. People who lived before the cross are saved the same way as people who live after the cross. Everyone who is saved, is saved by Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross. It doesn't matter when you live in regards to the crucifixion. You are still saved by life, death, and resurrection.
AskSeekKnock:
Christ's death on the cross was a literal atonement of our (believer's) sins. You say people before the cross were saved, you are correct, but you are wrong in how you think they were saved.
The cross not only covers all of God's people's future sins, but also all of their past sins. The cross is retroactive. People who lived before the cross are saved the same way as people who live after the cross. Everyone who is saved, is saved by Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross. It doesn't matter when you live in regards to the crucifixion. You are still saved by life, death, and resurrection.
Where did I call you a heretic?
We have responded to you. What you posted was unorthodox.
And whole we are on it, is Mark reliable?
Wow..... Eisegesis in the extreme! That or blatant ignorance of sound biblical teachings.... The cross does not symbolize death, it symbolizes where Christ took our debt and paid it. It has nothing to do with how we die. Wow.....all I can keep saying is wow....
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