Calvinism Predestination Doctrine

[enoob57]

Note for Mods: I did originally post this in the "Denomination Specific Theology" section but was advised I'd get a better response in this section. I apologise if I have broken any rules by reposting my question here, please delete the other thread if you need to.

Hi everyone!

I recently met a Calvinist and they were talking about their belief in predestination, I didn't really understand the teaching, I should have asked more questions! Anyway it did seem like a very important part of their beliefs. I was hoping there were some Calvinists on here that could offer some insight into the doctrine for me? I'd like to understand from a Calvinist point of view, if someone wouldn't mind explaining it to me, that would be awesome.

Thanks so much for reading.

Hi, friend ... one of the most informative understanding of the 3 sides of this issue: Calvinism, Arminianism, Provisionism

SOTERIOLOGY 101

A Professor and former 5-Point Calvinist Discussing the Doctrines of Salvation, Election, Predestination, and God's Amazing Grace.

soteriology101.com

 

[Bones49]

There are two things that lead to this, I think.

The first is an understanding that we are so corrupted by sin that we're unable even to respond to an offer from God unless he's first prepared us. Note that this *doesn't* mean that he forces people either to sin or to follow him. It's just that without his grace there's no realistic possibility of following him. And once he's renewed us to the point where we can respond, why wouldn't we?

Arminius, and with him many non-Calvinists, actually agreed with much of this. He agreed that without God's grace acting first, there's no way we could respond. However he objected to the logical implication. If anyone renewed by grace would respond to God, then that means that only reason someone would be lost is that God didn't renew them.

It's obvious why that would be troubling. However Arminius' alternative had troubling implications as well. Since he agreed that we had to be converted by God's grace, but he didn't want to make God responsible for who is saved, he had to say that in addition to be prepared by God's grace, we had to make a free response. Some people did and some didn't.

Calvinists noted that this introduced a contradiction into the whole system, since Arminius started out by agreeing that if it were up to us, we'd reject God; we need his grace. But in the end Arminius' system made the difference between those who responded and those who didn't something about the people themselves. It appears that some people weren't as helpless as others, since it only took a nudge from God, and they'd complete the work. (There's another logical problem: if God is omnipotent, and he can forsee everything, then he's going to know whether he nudged a given person hard enough or not. So in the end it seems like it's up to God.)

You often get the impression that Calvinism and Arminianism are the only real options. Calvinists tend to see everyone else either as Arminians or down-right Pelagians (those who think we can be saved on our own without grace). I think in practice a lot of people who think they're Arminians actually aren't. I think they deny the premiss on which Calvin and Arminius agreed: that we're so broken that only God's grace can get us to the point where we can even respond to the Gospel. The problem is that it's not clear how to avoid Pelagianism if you take that road. To avoid the problem I noted above with Arminianism, you may have to reject God's omnipotence.

Or you can just accept universalism. But then you have all those teachings by Jesus about judgement.

There's no alternative that is completely attractive and doesn't lead to things that seem unscriptural. Saying that it's all in God's hands seemed best to Calvinists. Indeed one scholar thinks a major motivation for Calvin is that he wanted to be able to say (at least for Christians) that everything we experience is from God, meant for our long-term benefit. It's a bit hard to say that if there are rogue agents out that operating independent of God.

I've looked at the alternatives pretty carefully. I think the only way to avoid predestination and maintain logic is either to deny God's omnipotence or accept universalism.

Just want to ask, as per Calvinism, and Arminius' issue that 'the only reason someone would be lost is that God didn't renew them.'
What is the Calvinist response to this? Because it would seem that this makes God either not all powerful, or not all loving.

Also, why, under Arminius' view, is the only option that some people weren't as helpless as others? Isn't it reasonable to consider that some people simply didn't want to accept, as the bible puts it they love the darkness rather than the light. Why must this be related to the lack or presence of helplessness, rather simply the lack of will.

Why can't I believe that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and God sent Jesus Christ to atone for our sins, his gift of grace, which we must receive through faith (which is also a gift from God), and simply choose to accept or reject this offer?

Accepting a gift is NOT works. If I stood in front of you and held out $10, and told you to take it, would you consider that your taking the money constitutes that you worked for it? No. If I told you that I would give you $1 million, but you had to fly to Korea to come and get it, would you consider that to amount to working to earn the money? (Maybe!) God's gift of salvation is worth much more than $1 million, and repentance much less than a plane ticket. I don't understand why accepting God's gift of salvation is considered to be a work.

Hey, I'm even willing to accept that it is only by the work of the Holy Spirit in my heart that I am even willing to accept, but the choice must be mine, without foreknowledge of God, or predestination of God, for it to be a free will choice - which is the only type of choice which can actual be, right?

 

[Bones49]

While they may not intentionally deny omnipotence, I think many Arminians basically assume that the way we respond to God's grace is not something that the logic of omnipotence fully applies to. (I understand that that statement is vague, but I'm not sure I can make it sharper.)

I'm not sure that this an Arminian view. But I think what you are trying to explain is the idea that when God chose to create humanity with free will, he chose to limit his power concerning them - that is to say, that in order for us to truly have free will, God chooses not to intervene. An example could be parents with young children. As parents we have the power to protect our children to significant degree, but many times we choose to let our children do things we know might hurt them, or otherwise have a negative result - so that they can grow. We let our children learn to walk (or ride a bike), knowing that in the process they will fall and hurt themselves, but in that knowledge we still let them try.

Possibly one of the main reasons I reject Calvinism is the idea that God's primary concern is his own glory. The way he created the world is so that he is able to recieve the largest amount of glory. When a sinner repents and turns to him, of his own free will, without it being foreknown or predestined, he recieve the greatest amount of glory that is possible to recieve from that person. If he predestined people to be saved, then he receives less (I would potentially argue no) glory.

 

[Bones49]

Predestination is VERY Real. and its more then just "According to His Foreknowledge." It's According to His WILL :

Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.
Psalm 135:5 For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.
Psalm 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.
Psalm 135:7 He it is who makes the clouds rise at the end of the earth, who makes lightnings for the rain and brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
Daniel 4:35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”
Acts 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Revelation 4:11 “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

Malachi 1:2–5 “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
4 If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’ ”
5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the LORD beyond the border of Israel!”
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.



Predestination is God’s predetermination of all things.

The doctrine of predestination is presented in Scripture in a variety of ways. The biblical writers affirm it frankly, both with the use of the technical terminology (Eph 1:11) and without (Rom 8:28; 11:36). More often, the biblical writers assume the doctrine throughout the biblical narrative as they trace all events, however small, to God. For example, they will say not merely that “it rained” or that “there was a drought,” but that “God sent rain,” or “God withheld rain,” or that “God sent a famine.” So also with regard to a woman’s childbearing—it is God who both opens and closes the womb (Gen 30:2, 22; Ps 127:3; Isa 66). Apart from his will neither hair nor sparrow falls (Matt 10:29–30). The weather (Job 38:26; Ps 135:5–7; Nah 1:3), animal life (Ps 104:21), inanimate objects (Prov 16:33), the hearts of kings (Prov 21:1), the rise and fall of nations (Isa 40:15–17; Dan 2:21; 4:35), and human life with its many intricate affairs (Ps 139:16; Jas 4:15) are all alike, the outworking of his all-inclusive purpose. Most fundamentally for the biblical writers, predestination is a necessary entailment of monotheism. The God who created all things rules over and directs those things to his intended ends. He does not leave his creation to its own outworking (deism), nor is any part of his creation beyond his control (a notion that would place God beneath his creation). God created all things in order to accomplish his own purpose (Rev 4:11; cf. Rom 8:28; Eph 1:11). Moreover, to affirm that God is a personal God is to affirm that what he does he does intentionally. This “intention” is predestination. To say “God” in the sense of biblical monotheism is to say “predestination.”
Closely related to this is the doctrine of divine sovereignty and the biblical presentation of God as creator-king. By reason of his authority as creator (Ps 24:1), God has rights of ownership over all that is, and by reason of his all-inclusive lordship, his will can never be frustrated. He does all he pleases (Ps 135:5–7), always and without interruption (Dan 4:35). Whatever other powers and authorities exist, they are nonetheless his (1 Chr 29:10–12) and exist to serve his purpose (Rev 4:11).
Predestination is closely related to the doctrine of election, and salvation is the chief (but not sole) focus of this word in New Testament usage. But the two terms are not exact equivalents. Election is God’s choosing whom he would save (2 Thess 2:13); predestination is God’s decree to secure that end. Moreover, predestination is a broader term that may be used of salvation (Rom 8:28–30; 1 Cor 2:7; Eph 1:5) or of God’s foreordained purposing of all things (Acts 4:28; cf. Ps 139:16; Eph 1:11; 2 Tim 1:9). The doctrine of reprobation, which concerns God’s decree to condemn those whom he has not chosen to save, is also closely related.
The doctrine of predestination is also tightly related to the doctrine of divine providence. Predestination is God’s intention and decree; providence is the outworking of that intention and decree. God’s decree is one (Job 23:13) and all inclusive (Rom 8:28; Eph 1:11), entailing even the sinful acts of men (Acts 4:28), which he providentially directs to his own praise (Ps 76:10).
Whether predestination is grounded in God alone or considerations outside of himself is the question that divides orthodox interpreters, all of whom affirm “predestination” (it is a Bible word, after all). Arminians stress human freedom, while Calvinists stress divine freedom. The one side affirms a kind of libertarian human freedom, while the other argues that such an affirmation would render God contingent and subject to his own creation rather than Lord over it. Both sides would affirm some level of mystery, but the contrasting human or divine concerns are given interpretive control.
Reformed interpreters point out that the biblical writers never mitigate the doctrine of predestination. Rather, they consistently affirm both divine predestination and human responsibility and ground human responsibility in the willful choice of sinners. Sinners are never forced by God to sin but sin willingly and because of their own evil disposition (Jas 1:13–14). God’s all-inclusive decree entails the sinful actions of men, but the blame for sin remains on sinners, who choose sin (Acts 2:23; 4:28). God stands behind all things but not in the same way: he is the immediate cause of good, but sinners are the immediate cause of sin. The Westminster Confession of Faith famously summarizes the matter this way: “God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established,” (III.1.
The doctrine of predestination is presented in Scripture as the deepest ground of trust in God. We can trust God precisely because we know that he works all things according to his own purpose and that nothing could ever come to interfere with that purpose. He not only controls but directs all things to his own appointed ends (Ps 76:10; Rom 8:28; Rev 4:11).

I want to believe you. But I just don't. I am trying to find someone of the reformed persuasion to convince me that they are correct, and I'm having a hard time.
I agree with almost everything you said, but on the basis that what is predestined (before the world began) was that both Jews and Gentiles would be able to receive salvation through the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. To me, that is the predestination that the Bible everywhere assumes to be true. I think I am in full agreement with what Roman2819 said in post #7.

One thing that I don't understand is that I've heard a few times in my search to understand Reformed theology, that yes human's have free will, they are free to sin. To me this doesn't make any sense, unless they are also free to not sin. To m this is like telling your children that they can eat anything they want, and then putting a bowl of apples in front of them and saying 'you can choose from this bowl anything you would like to eat'. They can't choose whatever they want, because it has been predetermined by you that they can only eat apples.

Yes, God is sovereign, yes God has a plan, that he formulated before the foundation of the world, that plan was the salvation would be available to all through Jesus Christ.

John 15:16 - Jesus is talking specifically to the disciples isn't he? And even if not, it still doesn't mean that you were predestined before the foundation of the world, the choice could have been made actually even after you had repented - it is possible that this choice was God's choosing to accept your repentance and grant you salvation.

Instead of simply listing a few verses, most of which don't seem to actually say anything related to what the topic is, it would be nice if you could actually provide your interpretation so we can see how you develop your theology from them. Because as I see it, most of the verses you quoted have absolutely nothing to do with predestined salvation of individuals.

I enjoyed reading your post, but I still don't understand how you get from A (the bible) to B (predestination of individuals for salvation).

 

[Bones49]

Yes, I have, that's what led me out of Arminianism, which is more relatively new than you think.

I find that really interesting, since Arminius was originally a Calvinist, but in attempting to defend the doctrine, changed his views.

 

[enoob57]

It's According to His WILL

It interesting you mentioned this as we have God's direct statement to His Will in this:
2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It interesting you mentioned this as we have God's direct statement to His Will in this:
2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Is there a difference between repentance and salvation? Was Judas repentant after having betrayed Jesus?

 

[enoob57]

Is there a difference between repentance and salvation?

Repentance is seeing what God sees in us before salvation ... salvation is looking to God, after seeing repentance, and asking The Lord to save us with the absolute of no barter possibilities...

Was Judas repentant after having betrayed Jesus?

No he was sorrowful as the world sorrows but not repentant to God or else he would have come to God to ask for forgiveness instead of hanging himself...

 

[bbbbbbb]

Repentance is seeing what God sees in us before salvation ... salvation is looking to God, after seeing repentance, and asking The Lord to save us with the absolute of no barter possibilities...


No he was sorrowful as the world sorrows but not repentant to God or else he would have come to God to ask for forgiveness instead of hanging himself...

Thank you.

 

[moonbeam]

Predestination is VERY Real. and its more then just "According to His Foreknowledge." It's According to His WILL :

Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.
Psalm 135:5 For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.
Psalm 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.
Psalm 135:7 He it is who makes the clouds rise at the end of the earth, who makes lightnings for the rain and brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
Daniel 4:35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”
Acts 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Revelation 4:11 “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

Malachi 1:2–5 “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
4 If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’ ”
5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the LORD beyond the border of Israel!”
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.



Predestination is God’s predetermination of all things.

The doctrine of predestination is presented in Scripture in a variety of ways. The biblical writers affirm it frankly, both with the use of the technical terminology (Eph 1:11) and without (Rom 8:28; 11:36). More often, the biblical writers assume the doctrine throughout the biblical narrative as they trace all events, however small, to God. For example, they will say not merely that “it rained” or that “there was a drought,” but that “God sent rain,” or “God withheld rain,” or that “God sent a famine.” So also with regard to a woman’s childbearing—it is God who both opens and closes the womb (Gen 30:2, 22; Ps 127:3; Isa 66). Apart from his will neither hair nor sparrow falls (Matt 10:29–30). The weather (Job 38:26; Ps 135:5–7; Nah 1:3), animal life (Ps 104:21), inanimate objects (Prov 16:33), the hearts of kings (Prov 21:1), the rise and fall of nations (Isa 40:15–17; Dan 2:21; 4:35), and human life with its many intricate affairs (Ps 139:16; Jas 4:15) are all alike, the outworking of his all-inclusive purpose. Most fundamentally for the biblical writers, predestination is a necessary entailment of monotheism. The God who created all things rules over and directs those things to his intended ends. He does not leave his creation to its own outworking (deism), nor is any part of his creation beyond his control (a notion that would place God beneath his creation). God created all things in order to accomplish his own purpose (Rev 4:11; cf. Rom 8:28; Eph 1:11). Moreover, to affirm that God is a personal God is to affirm that what he does he does intentionally. This “intention” is predestination. To say “God” in the sense of biblical monotheism is to say “predestination.”
Closely related to this is the doctrine of divine sovereignty and the biblical presentation of God as creator-king. By reason of his authority as creator (Ps 24:1), God has rights of ownership over all that is, and by reason of his all-inclusive lordship, his will can never be frustrated. He does all he pleases (Ps 135:5–7), always and without interruption (Dan 4:35). Whatever other powers and authorities exist, they are nonetheless his (1 Chr 29:10–12) and exist to serve his purpose (Rev 4:11).
Predestination is closely related to the doctrine of election, and salvation is the chief (but not sole) focus of this word in New Testament usage. But the two terms are not exact equivalents. Election is God’s choosing whom he would save (2 Thess 2:13); predestination is God’s decree to secure that end. Moreover, predestination is a broader term that may be used of salvation (Rom 8:28–30; 1 Cor 2:7; Eph 1:5) or of God’s foreordained purposing of all things (Acts 4:28; cf. Ps 139:16; Eph 1:11; 2 Tim 1:9). The doctrine of reprobation, which concerns God’s decree to condemn those whom he has not chosen to save, is also closely related.
The doctrine of predestination is also tightly related to the doctrine of divine providence. Predestination is God’s intention and decree; providence is the outworking of that intention and decree. God’s decree is one (Job 23:13) and all inclusive (Rom 8:28; Eph 1:11), entailing even the sinful acts of men (Acts 4:28), which he providentially directs to his own praise (Ps 76:10).
Whether predestination is grounded in God alone or considerations outside of himself is the question that divides orthodox interpreters, all of whom affirm “predestination” (it is a Bible word, after all). Arminians stress human freedom, while Calvinists stress divine freedom. The one side affirms a kind of libertarian human freedom, while the other argues that such an affirmation would render God contingent and subject to his own creation rather than Lord over it. Both sides would affirm some level of mystery, but the contrasting human or divine concerns are given interpretive control.
Reformed interpreters point out that the biblical writers never mitigate the doctrine of predestination. Rather, they consistently affirm both divine predestination and human responsibility and ground human responsibility in the willful choice of sinners. Sinners are never forced by God to sin but sin willingly and because of their own evil disposition (Jas 1:13–14). God’s all-inclusive decree entails the sinful actions of men, but the blame for sin remains on sinners, who choose sin (Acts 2:23; 4:28). God stands behind all things but not in the same way: he is the immediate cause of good, but sinners are the immediate cause of sin. The Westminster Confession of Faith famously summarizes the matter this way: “God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established,” (III.1.
The doctrine of predestination is presented in Scripture as the deepest ground of trust in God. We can trust God precisely because we know that he works all things according to his own purpose and that nothing could ever come to interfere with that purpose. He not only controls but directs all things to his own appointed ends (Ps 76:10; Rom 8:28; Rev 4:11).

Great post - SeamusDalion:

Definitely worth a read - and another read.

.