Calvinism, explained.

StanJ · May 7, 2016

Salem said:
Why is Calvinism all the rage online? Are there churches out there, in 2016, preaching "thus saith Calvin?" It all seems Popish, with a Protestant twist. I can't even recall a fundamentalist I've heard that mentioned Calvin, have heard no reputable Bible minister I'd listen to teaching the doctrines of any school of man, for that matter. Are many of these debates just fabricated, for the purpose of people who like disputing?

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Believe me, it is not the rage. I have been on forums for about 6 or 7 years now and I can tell you that it's just as prevalent today as it was back then except that doesn't take into account that these discussion forums have grown in popularity and scope. Normally today it is referred to as Reformed Theology (RT) more than it is referred to as Calvinism. Probably because not all people who ascribe to Reformed Theology are five point Calvinists. There are many Four point and Three point Calvinists today and as such they don't like to refer to themselves as Calvinists.
False teaching has been a problem from day one as noted in the New Testament so it's not unusual that the church has had to deal with these issues over the last couple of Millennia. The problem with teaching Doctrine rather than teaching the saints to read and properly understand the Bible IN CONTEXT, exists in all parts of the church and isn't secluded within Calvinism.

ToBeLoved · May 7, 2016

GillDouglas said:
@ToBeLoved I've ignored you too long. I believe we have a misunderstanding here. The assumption might be that because God is the Sovereign Ruler, who does in fact govern all things, that He makes the individual decisions for men. But it might surprise you that we would both agree that man is nothing less of an intelligent, free, morals driven agent who his entirely responsible for his actions.

The ideas that I, and many others like me, have tried to express is: God's sovereignty in the expression of predestination, effectual providential control, etc. go hand in hand with those of liberty and responsibility of rational creatures.

You must understand that in our position we see that God didn't just create ALL of this and then walk away to let the 'ship run adrift or aground' like a naval fleet without commander/pilot. This contradicts all that we believe about God as seen countless times in Scriptures and our daily/life experiences.

God created a perfect story in which our individual lives enrich it and bring glory to Him. Also He thought it right to reveal Himself to His creation and become a part of our lives.

Well what I think is that you have to make sense of the Bible in light of what you are saying and I don't think Calvinism does that. If you say all is predestined than you have to take the sin too.

I think even salvation shows we have a free-will. The Holy Spirit is a patient loving teacher but some don't want to listen and they don't. And God lets them.

sdowney717 · May 7, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
Well what I think is that you have to make sense of the Bible in light of what you are saying and I don't think Calvinism does that. If you say all is predestined than you have to take the sin too.

I think even salvation shows we have a free-will. The Holy Spirit is a patient loving teacher but some don't want to listen and they don't. And God lets them.

Isaiah 46, for example you must contend with then I think as it speaks to God's determinative decree, a 'predestination' of future events.
Here God is reminding the 'transgressors', which would be sinful men of His authoritative power over this fallen creation.

8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

In that God declares the end from the beginning, is this not all determinative and that of God Himself?
Or of the things that are not yet done, this also includes peoples not yet born?
Judge for yourself according to God's own words about these things. Sure it is a mystery how can it be so?, but it is so even if beyond our understanding, but not beyond His. All things with God are possible, He is unlimited power.

Jesus also spoke of things He was to teach His disciples that they could not yet bear to know, so perhaps on your own walk with God, you must consider that also, maybe you are not ready to understand, and this is not a reflection on you personally.

EmSw · May 7, 2016

sdowney717 said:
Isaiah 46, for example you must contend with then I think as it speaks to God's determinative decree, a 'predestination' of future events.
Here God is reminding the 'transgressors', which would be sinful men of His authoritative power over this fallen creation.

8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

In that God declares the end from the beginning, is this not all determinative and that of God Himself?
Or of the things that are not yet done, this also includes peoples not yet born?
Judge for yourself according to God's own words about these things. Sure it is a mystery how can it be so?, but it is so even if beyond our understanding, but not beyond His. All things with God are possible, He is unlimited power.

Jesus also spoke of things He was to teach His disciples that they could not yet bear to know, so perhaps on your own walk with God, you must consider that also, maybe you are not ready to understand, and this is not a reflection on you personally.

Here are God's own words -

Zechariah 1:6
Yet surely My words and My statutes, which I commanded My servants the prophets, did they not overtake your fathers? “So they returned and said: ‘Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, so He has dealt with us.

This is not a mystery; it is plainly spoken by God. God does not predetermine according to His desire, but according to our ways and deeds. This is how He deals with us. No need to figure out what the mystery is.

sdowney717 · May 7, 2016

EmSw said:
Here are God's own words -

Zechariah 1:6
Yet surely My words and My statutes, which I commanded My servants the prophets, did they not overtake your fathers? “So they returned and said: ‘Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, so He has dealt with us.

This is not a mystery; it is plainly spoken by God. God does not predetermine according to His desire, but according to our ways and deeds. This is how He deals with us. No need to figure out what the mystery is.

A total misdirection regarding Isaiah 46 v10, dont you think so ?
In that God says
"10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

That is before they were born, before these things happened, declaring the things that are not yet done, so then before people did what they did. Unless your completely ignorant of the structures of english grammar?

In that God here says HE declares this is how it will be before it is, He is saying this is how it is going to be and no one can challenge my decision on what I declare will be, and will be just as I have so said it will be.

EmSw · May 8, 2016

sdowney717 said:
A total misdirection regarding Isaiah 46 v10, dont you think so ?
In that God says
"10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

That is before they were born, before these things happened, declaring the things that are not yet done, so then before people did what they did. Unless your completely ignorant of the structures of english grammar?

In that God here says HE declares this is how it will be before it is, He is saying this is how it is going to be and no one can challenge my decision on what I declare will be, and will be just as I have so said it will be.

To whom is God speaking? Read the whole chapter.

Patmos · May 8, 2016

Salem said:
I had the same experience, was ill, all dressed up and nowhere to go, started doing forums stuff, and must confess to getting somewhat hooked on things I could live without. But at first you're thinking, "Cool!", you're going to discuss truth. Then the guy you're discussing something with gets weird, whips out ceremonial law, soul sleep, a whole myriad of -ists and -isms that probably belong in a deprogrammer's case files, man's doctrines and anything but scripture truth, starts telling you who the antichrist is, there's no rapture, to stock up on toilet paper and how you lose salvation if you don't recycle a tin can... Brother! You find yourself down to defending basic truth all Christians should be settled in, then realize the other guy doesn't really believe, refuses, those Christian basics, bottom line. Doesn't believe crystal clear scripture, very often.

I have seen how the web will be instrumental in apostasy, in that it gives a platform for error and deception to flourish, literally can be the devil's playground. As you mention, there are loners out there, proclaiming error every which way, who believe they're a ministry. Some have invented their own religions, due to faulty scripture interpretations, such that no congregation has ever existed. How many are simply tares, up to no good? Throw in all those in some cult, well, so much for sound doctrine. And you couldn't, nor should you, spend all your effort refuting these people. They need to get saved, first, or they're never going to understand sound doctrine. Like our Lord told the apostles, if they don't receive you, dust off your feet and move on, not to park on their doorstep and argue with them all day, every day. To be completely honest, it's more for entertainment if you're sick, where you, at least, may get to also entertain something spiritual with somebody sane, but I think I need to more reconsider how much of it to indulge in when well, brother!

I do hope and pray you're feeling better, "Lord, lead us not into the internet..."

I think you have hit quite a few nails on the head.

"And you couldn't, nor should you, spend all your effort refuting these people. They need to get saved first"

Not tha it is for me to pass judgement. Some of these people seem like the wind. Say one thing - a bit ambiguously - and when asked for clarification, say something dead opposite.

It is a danger, as you suggested in your post, of getting sucked in.

Thanks for you post.

Patmos · May 8, 2016

GillDouglas said:
It is difficult for many, and at times for even myself, to think that God would have determined and allowed the things that we consider to be bad, cruel, evil etc. to happen. No amount of preaching of the sovereignty of God will help a grieving mother moments after her child's throat was slit. Pain, suffering, death, etc. happens to us all (the saved and unsaved) and it's not easy.

How do you deal with scripture that tells us: "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

Is it better for you to believe that your pain, suffering or that of another happened for no reason at all: a result of chance and circumstance? Or is it better if you realized that the things that have happened are the result of a grand design put into place by an all-knowing and loving God, that they did not happen in vain? Which would be better for the mother of that child in dealing with the pain of losing him?

It's hard to say on her behalf, but for me concerning my mother committing suicide, I like to think that it was for a purpose in God's plan, which is bigger than me and my circumstances.

Thanks Gill

I am off to Church very shortly so have only give your post a quick glance. Your genuininess shines out.

Be blessed.

tulipbee · May 8, 2016

Patmos said:
Why does the Bible even bother with passages like this "26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish" ?

It's not an action. It's a fact. The elects already heard and the unregenerates are foolish. The unsaved hope it's an action so they can can earn salvation themselves so they can fit in christanity. Man is too total depraved to do anything for themselves.

tulipbee · May 8, 2016

Albion said:
Sin is the absence or renunciation of good. It is silly to claim that God is the "author" of sin merely because he allows it to exist.

The unregenerates looks for ways to get out of it. They create self salvation works and tells God they deserve heaven on demand.

Salem · May 8, 2016

Patmos said:
It is a danger, as you suggested in your post, of getting sucked in.

A view scripture very much supports that few seem to grasp is that, where the rubber meets the road, you don't endlessly debate truth. The truth of the faith is presented, and it is accepted, or it is rejected. The Spirit is required to simply understand the deeper things of God, absent which you may as well be preaching to a tree stump. Nowhere does the Bible support internet trolling, rather condemns these endless, vain disputes and all the rancor.

I feel sorry there are those who spend their lives going on and on, over doctrines of men and other delusions, but this disease requires a spiritual cure, not a debate. Trolls need debates. If you've noticed, some people never cease saying the same things, are just stirring the pot. It's all they do, and it's not even intelligent. We get it. Enough, already, you're making me sleepy! If you present God's truth, and anybody wishes to kick against it, this is solely a matter between that person and God, a need for spiritual vision. Again:

1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

ToBeLoved · May 8, 2016

faroukfarouk said:
It has been said that we are the only Bible that some people will ever read.

However, since those who reject God are going to reject His people also, any amount of trying to be nice to people who reject Him is unlikely to succeed unless the Spirit of God is working in them.

What we need to be is Christ's own that live out our beliefs. If we as Christians did as we speak it would be a light. We need to be who we say we are. Actions and words together.

Aldebaran · May 8, 2016

tulipbee said:
It's not an action. It's a fact. The elects already heard and the unregenerates are foolish. The unsaved hope it's an action so they can can earn salvation themselves so they can fit in christanity. Man is too total depraved to do anything for themselves.

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

If we're not able to do anything, then why did Jesus say, "Come to Me" if He's the one who does everything? I've been asking questions like this but haven't been getting any answers.

sdowney717 · May 8, 2016

Aldebaran said:
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

If we're not able to do anything, then why did Jesus say, "Come to Me" if He's the one who does everything? I've been asking questions like this but haven't been getting any answers.

The shepherd guides the sheep of his flock.
Jesus said His people know His voice, meaning the elect, those elected from the beginning of time, so when they hear Him speak to them they respond, and then He gives them eternal life and they will never perish.
Jesus says they will hear him speak and they will follow Him, so when Christ speaks, come to me all you who are weary, only His sheep will hear and hearken, pay heed to and come to Christ, Only those who are of the Father Hear Christ, hearken and come to Christ. Which is why John 8 says

47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
Even though many heard Christ speak in the natural hearing with ears, they did not truly 'hear Christ'. They refused him, said He was insane, a demon, speaking to them, which is why Christ said 'you do not hear', meaning you do not believe me when I tell you the truth, since they are not of God, meaning they are not the elect, predestined by the Father to respond in faith to Christ.

Christ emphatically declares His sheep will hear my voice and they become one with the flock. They hear because they are of God, meaning God has foreknown them and so then they are predestined to hear Christ and be part of the flock with Christ as their shepherd.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

v26, those not believing, who never will believe are not Christ's elect and even witnessing Christ's miracles will never believe.
v27, the my sheep hear me, that is the call for His elect to come to Him, and they do, come in faith and believe in Christ.
v28, After they come to Christ, believing in Him, He gives to them eternal life, and they are forever eternally secure.
v29, Christ tells us God is all powerful, and so then they can never be lost
v30, He and God are of one mind about our eternal salvation.

Consider Paul's conversion for example. Paul was one of Christ's elect, one of His sheep.
Paul however did not believe in Christ, not until Paul heard Christ speak directly to Paul, then Paul believed in Christ, Paul had heard the voice of His Shepherd. In God's perfect timing, Christ called Paul. And Paul heard Christ, and came to Christ believing in faith and Christ gave Paul eternal life. Prior to that conversion experience Christ had not spoken directly to Paul.
Christ calls His sheep personally, he knows all of them by name, and they will hear Him speak to them personally. Note in v25, those who hear Him, hear Christ will live.
Thats is the dead who hear will live. not all dead hear Christ. Only those who are of God hear God's words, so if you do not hear, then you are not of God. And you will remain dead in your sins.

John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

tulipbee · May 9, 2016

Aldebaran said:
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

If we're not able to do anything, then why did Jesus say, "Come to Me" if He's the one who does everything? I've been asking questions like this but haven't been getting any answers.

That's cause you want man made answers. Free will never sends a man to heaven. Man's actions are base on God doing something, not nothing. Man wants God to have nothing to do with thier free will and thier results are boasting. You're drowning in the lies from anticalvinists

Salem · May 9, 2016

tulipbee said:
That's cause you want man made answers. Free will never sends a man to heaven. Man's actions are base on God doing something, not nothing. Man wants God to have nothing to do with thier free will and thier results are boasting. You're drowning in the lies from anticalvinists

Does it ever occur to you that you're hitching your doctrines to the teachings of one man? Do you see how you're even talking in terms of anticalvinists? Have you ever noticed how it is those, enslaved to some cult, who argue the cult's teachings, day in and day out? How all such are obsessed with selling their private interpretations and extra-Biblical doctrines of men? Just something to think about.

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

tulipbee · May 9, 2016

Salem said:
Does it ever occur to you that you're hitching your doctrines to the teachings of one man? Do you see how you're even talking in terms of anticalvinists? Have you ever noticed how it is those, enslaved to some cult, who argue the cult's teachings, day in and day out? How all such are obsessed with selling their private interpretations and extra-Biblical doctrines of men? Just something to think about.

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Saint Augustine were right on some things

Salem · May 9, 2016

tulipbee said:
Saint Augustine were right on some things

I'm sure Adolf Hitler was right about some things, too, but this doesn't mean there's any use for Mein Kampf. Theology is not like political science, to debate. In fact, there is only truth and that which is not truth. Christianity is spiritually discerned, is not voted on, and it does not matter who wins some silly debate, if their view is error that damages the faith.

Christianity is hitched to one Man, the God man, Jesus Christ, religion men debate completely immaterial, when it's derailed from the truth of inspired scripture. It is also my stance that a teacher who is in grave error is not worthy of being a teacher of scripture, have no interest in any man lacking Holy Spirit truth. I have no use for the writings of men I have to sort through, to glean the truth, no use for being subjected to what are often huge lies, when there is scripture and reliable, Spirit filled scholarship available I don't have to weed through. Neither do I have any use for some denominational cult of any man, all of which are out there on their own, for violating scripture truth and separating themselves, in their error, from the rest of the body of Christ. Again:

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

ToBeLoved · May 9, 2016

sdowney717 said:
Isaiah 46, for example you must contend with then I think as it speaks to God's determinative decree, a 'predestination' of future events.
Here God is reminding the 'transgressors', which would be sinful men of His authoritative power over this fallen creation.

8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

In that God declares the end from the beginning, is this not all determinative and that of God Himself?
Or of the things that are not yet done, this also includes peoples not yet born?
Judge for yourself according to God's own words about these things. Sure it is a mystery how can it be so?, but it is so even if beyond our understanding, but not beyond His. All things with God are possible, He is unlimited power.

Jesus also spoke of things He was to teach His disciples that they could not yet bear to know, so perhaps on your own walk with God, you must consider that also, maybe you are not ready to understand, and this is not a reflection on you personally.

See the fallicy is that we do not believe that God is in control. I have already said God is in control. The proof is on the Calvinist to reconcile their beliefs with the Bible. I already do. IMHO, the Calvinist limit God into a small box. My God is not in a small box.

ToBeLoved · May 9, 2016

sdowney717 said:
The shepherd guides the sheep of his flock.
Jesus said His people know His voice, meaning the elect, those elected from the beginning of time, so when they hear Him speak to them they respond, and then He gives them eternal life and they will never perish.
Jesus says they will hear him speak and they will follow Him, so when Christ speaks, come to me all you who are weary, only His sheep will hear and hearken, pay heed to and come to Christ, Only those who are of the Father Hear Christ, hearken and come to Christ. Which is why John 8 says

47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
Even though many heard Christ speak in the natural hearing with ears, they did not truly 'hear Christ'. They refused him, said He was insane, a demon, speaking to them, which is why Christ said 'you do not hear', meaning you do not believe me when I tell you the truth, since they are not of God, meaning they are not the elect, predestined by the Father to respond in faith to Christ.

Christ emphatically declares His sheep will hear my voice and they become one with the flock. They hear because they are of God, meaning God has foreknown them and so then they are predestined to hear Christ and be part of the flock with Christ as their shepherd.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

v26, those not believing, who never will believe are not Christ's elect and even witnessing Christ's miracles will never believe.
v27, the my sheep hear me, that is the call for His elect to come to Him, and they do, come in faith and believe in Christ.
v28, After they come to Christ, believing in Him, He gives to them eternal life, and they are forever eternally secure.
v29, Christ tells us God is all powerful, and so then they can never be lost
v30, He and God are of one mind about our eternal salvation.

Consider Paul's conversion for example. Paul was one of Christ's elect, one of His sheep.
Paul however did not believe in Christ, not until Paul heard Christ speak directly to Paul, then Paul believed in Christ, Paul had heard the voice of His Shepherd. In God's perfect timing, Christ called Paul. And Paul heard Christ, and came to Christ believing in faith and Christ gave Paul eternal life. Prior to that conversion experience Christ had not spoken directly to Paul.
Christ calls His sheep personally, he knows all of them by name, and they will hear Him speak to them personally. Note in v25, those who hear Him, hear Christ will live.
Thats is the dead who hear will live. not all dead hear Christ. Only those who are of God hear God's words, so if you do not hear, then you are not of God. And you will remain dead in your sins.

John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

What else did Jesus say?

If one of them gets lost, I leave my sheep fold and go find the one who is lost and bring them back.

So then, did Jesus/God predestine one to get lost and Jesus would go find them and bring them back?

If there are these sheep, than how do we know if we are one of these sheep that is lost or if we are the sheep in the sheep fold?

Calvinism, explained.

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