Calvinism, explained.

GillDouglas said:

The heart of what Calvinists believe is the complete and utter sovereignty of God. That before men knew God, He knew each man and the role they would play for His glory.

Click to expand...

I agree Doug, God 'foreknew' every man before each man was born.

GillDouglas said:

The heart of what Calvinists believe is the complete and utter sovereignty of God. That before men knew God, He knew each man and the role they would play for His glory.

Click to expand...

Actually non-Calvinists also believe exactly this. And these truths are also compatible with God giving men the ability to freely choose whom they will serve.

GillDouglas said:

The heart of what Calvinists believe is the complete and utter sovereignty of God. That before men knew God, He knew each man and the role they would play for His glory.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean here? I know the Tulip Doctrine but I'm not sure how this relates to it other than God created the Tulip Doctrine?
The Bible does teach us that God has foreknowledge and that God is Omniscient, but how exactly do those attributes of God relate to the heart of Calvinism?

GillDouglas said:

I often say that God is the Author of this world and we are fulfilling the role He has given us. We see evidence of that in such things as the unique abilities each man has, the places or family one is born into, or the sense of purpose each individual longs for. Whether a man calls himself a Christian or not, each individual, no matter how trivial or important they are, all play a part in God's plan for this world.

Click to expand...

Yes I agree that God is the author of this world, Genesis 1 tells us that. However I don't see where the Bible tells us that God has given us rules specifically. He may use our abilities as we submit them to his authority but then again there are many who don't submit them to his authority and that he can't use. A good example of this would be Billy Graham and Charles Templeton. If you know the story you'll know that they both were very good at evangelism but while Billy Graham became probably our greatest evangelist in the 20th century, Charles Templeton died in a rather obscure and apostate condition. The sole difference between the two was their choice of whether to believe in God or not.

GillDouglas said:

The fundamental idea is that without God men can do nothing. We are born into sin as enemies of God, unable to free ourselves from the grip of sin and it's wage. God releases men from that slavery, and additionally through the redemptive work of Christ is no longer burdened by the wage brought about by sin. This is a permanent change in a man's nature created by the work of God through the Holy Spirit. The veil is torn, lifted from that man's heart and he is no longer an enemy of God. He will never again be His enemy, and though he may stumble in his walk, the Helper remains with him to guide his path.

Click to expand...

I disagree, without God man does many things both famous and infamous. We may be born into sin but we are not enemies of God, in fact we are his children and his word says that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Hebrews 9:27 tells us that it is appointed for man to die once. To me that doesn't look like the wages of sin no longer apply. There also cannot be a permanent change in a man's nature when he's saved when the New Testament tells us men can fall away into apostasy and that there will be a great Falling Away before Jesus returns. We would not be warned to persevere, run the race , or fight the good fight, if we were permanently changed for the better . The only veil that was torn in the New Testament was the one that God tore/ripped from the top to the bottom that separated the holy of holies from man. This signified that was Jesus's death there was no longer any kind of separation between God and man regardless of the status of whether they were sinners saved by grace or sinners not saved by grace, because only God could have torn it. Remember, God so loved the WORLD.

GillDouglas said:

However, this is not the case for all men. Some will remain slaves, burdened by the wage brought about by sin which is death. Many reject this idea because we think it is completely unfair that some would be given life, while others are passed by. I agree that it is unfair, but it is the Truth. The Bible and experience tells us that not all men will be saved, and it is for good reason. A grand purpose that only God can truly understand. While we would wish, pray, and evangelize for those whom we love: family, friends and many others, ultimately some with perish.

Click to expand...

The Bible tells us that all men are created equal and that there is no longer a Jew or Gentile, a slave or free man, a man or woman.
Clearly no one has a special dispensation under the New Covenant. We are all given the same opportunity to confess Jesus as our savior.
Yes someone perish but that has nothing to do with God that has only to do with man's own will. Peter says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. That doesn't mean that all will come to repentance obviously but it means that God wants all to come to repentance so his word cannot say he wants all and that not be so.

GillDouglas said:

Regardless of ones path, all have been given purpose by God. The sovereign will of the Creator is fulfilled by the free actions of all men. Best real life example that I can give is: Man rapes a young woman. Woman becomes pregnant. Man goes to prison, woman is also a prisoner but of severe depression. God, by way of the birth of the child and surrounding her with His own to plant seeds, changes the woman's heart. The woman visits the rapist, forgives him and then he is later given a Bible. Puzzled by the woman's willingness to forgive, begins reading the Bible. God, by way of its teachings, changes the man's heart. Their testimony brings about more of God's work in changing hearts, all for His glory.

Click to expand...

Well I have to agree with your analogy and that God works all things together for good and this is also in keeping with the law of sowing and reaping, however I don't agree that God had this planned for every man's life. Paul tells us in Romans 8 that God has predestined those who loved his son to be conformed to the image of his son. All that means is that once a person is saved God's will in that person's life has a purpose and can accomplish things that will glorify him but as you have rightly indicated above, that man's Free Will actions can still prevent God's plan from being fulfilled and again I bring up the example of Billy Graham and Charles Templeton. One has had and still does have a great testimony for God the other one died in obscurity and will not be well remembered for anything he did for God but only what he did for himself, to himself

GillDouglas said:

The heart of what Calvinists believe is the complete and utter sovereignty of God. That before men knew God, He knew each man and the role they would play for His glory.

Click to expand...

That's what they say.

But when they write a long post, I pick up a tone to their writing.

Am I the only one who gets this? I don't think so. It is defeatest. It actually when expressed fully, IMHO, sounds like God is weak. That the minute God is not controlling, He is not IN CONTROL.

That's not accurate at all. That's the underlying tone i see.

GillDouglas said:

I often say that God is the Author of this world and we are fulfilling the role He has given us. We see evidence of that in such things as the unique abilities each man has, the places or family one is born into, or the sense of purpose each individual longs for.

Click to expand...

God created us to play roles?

That is the cake topper of His magnificent creation?

This is the creation that in His Word He says testifies that there is a God.

I see a cow as having a role. To feed His most important and the ONLY creation created in His image.

Why does man need unique abilities if they have no free-will? Why does man need purpose? Doesn't man in your scenario do the only thing they can do? Follow what is irresistible and what they were predestined to do?

What is so great about man doing what they have been predestined and never had the choice to do or not do?

That to me is closer to animals who follow instinct and that's their drive. Instinct, not obedience.

This to me follows more of an evoloutionary look at man. They can only do what they were designed to do.

Patmos said:

.......

To be continued.

For many people – Lutherans, Orthodox, Catholics, The majority of Protestants, even some types of Calvinism - the Canons lose any coherency at:

Article 5 - "The cause or guilt of this unbelief, .. is no wise in God, but in man himself"

But no, instead:

Article 6 - "That some do not receive it proceeds from God's eternal decree… of reprobation"

So, which is it ?

( Later on The Canons mention “Author of sin” which I hope to get to soon)

Click to expand...

Article 12

The elect in due time, though in various degrees and in different measures, attain the assurance of this their eternal and unchangeable election, not by inquisitively prying into the secret and deep things of God, but by observing in themselves, with a spiritual joy and holy pleasure, the infallible fruits of election pointed out in the Word of God — such as a true faith in Christ, filial fear, a godly sorrow for sin, a hungering and thirsting after righteousness, etc.


Article 13

The sense and certainty of this election afford to the children of God additional matter for daily humiliation before Him, for adoring the depth of His mercies, for cleansing themselves, and rendering grateful returns of ardent love to Him, who first manifested so great love towards them. The consideration of this doctrine of election is so far from encouraging remissness in the observance of the divine commands or from sinking men in carnal security, that these, in the just judgment of God, are the usual effects of rash presumption or of idle and wanton trifling with the grace of election in those who refuse to walk in the ways of the elect.

Refuse to walk! How can this be possible with irresistible Grace ?

Those who refuse to walk in the way of the elect must be the ‘elect’ themselves per Article 6“Who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11). According to which decree, He graciously softens the hearts of the elect, however obstinate, and inclines them to believe,”

Are we to understand that God causes his elect to reject ?

Article 14

As the doctrine of divine election by the most wise counsel of God was declared by the prophets, by Christ Himself, and by the apostles, and is clearly revealed in the Scriptures, both of the Old and New Testament, so it is still to be published in due time and place in the Church of God, for which it was peculiarly designed, provided it be done with reverence, in the spirit of discretion and piety, for the glory of God's most holy Name, and for enlivening and comforting His people, without vainly attempting to investigate the secret ways of the Most High. “For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God” (Acts 20:27); “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor?” (Rom. 11:33–34); “For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith”(Rom. 12:3); “Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutabilityof His counsel, confirmed it by an oath: that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us” (Heb. 6:17–18).

“according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith” (Rom. 12:3)”

If ‘divine election’ is that God has chosen only certain individuals to be saved mankind is made incapable of responding to God's grace per article 6 (first sentence). Then how are we to reconcile John 3:16, Acts 17:30, 1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, Rev. 22:17. How can God say to the lost, "whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely," and then hold the water of life out of reach from the majority of mankind?


Gen 4:6-7
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?


Immutability


1 Sam 10:23-24
23 And they ran and fetched him thence: and when he stood among the people, he was higher than any of the people from his shoulders and upward.
24 And Samuel said to all the people, See ye him whom the LORD hath chosen, that there is none like him among all the people? And all the people shouted, and said, God save the king.
(KJV)

Even after God's election of Saul to be king of Israel, God later rejected him.

1 Sam 15:23
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.


Even after being "elect" of God, Peter indicated that it is our responsibility and within our power to make our "calling" and "election" sure. This is utterly impossible in Dort/Calvinism.

2 Pet 1:10
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
(KJV)


Fig tree and being grafted in is also a good study!

Article 15

What peculiarly tends to illustrate and recommend to us the eternal and unmerited grace of election, is the express testimony of sacred Scripture that not all, but some only are elected, while others are passed by in the eternal decree; whom God, out of His sovereign, most just, irreprehensible and unchangeable good pleasure, hath decreed to leave in the common misery into which they have wilfully plunged themselves, and not to bestow upon them saving faith and the grace of conversion; but permitting them in His just judgment to follow their own ways, at last for the declaration of His justice, to condemn and perish them forever, not only on account of their unbelief, but also for all their other sins. And this is the decree of reprobation which by no means makes God the author of sin (the very thought of which is blasphemy), but declares Him to be an awful, irreprehensible, and righteous Judge and avenger thereof.

“not all, but some only are elected” –
Contradicts Article 14 “according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith” (Rom. 12:3”
Contradicts - John 3:16, Acts 17:30, 1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, Rev. 22:17

“which by no means makes God the author of sin”

Born through your own fault? “For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil" yet before the foundation of the world God's eternal decree reprobated them. Articles 6 and 7).

The T in TULIP – Total depravity renders the child being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil totally unable to respond to the Gospel as decreed by God before the foundation of the worls.

Article 6 "That some receive the gift of faith from God and others do not receive it proceeds from God's eternal decree"

Article 7 "before the foundation of the world, He hath out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen, from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault"

Article 16

Those who do not yet experience a lively faith in Christ, an assured confidence of soul, peace of conscience, an earnest endeavor after filial obedience, and glorying in God through Christ, efficaciously wrought in them, and do nevertheless persist in the use of the means which God hath appointed for working these graces in us, ought not to be alarmed at the mention of reprobation, nor to rank themselves among the reprobate, but diligently to persevere in the use of means, and with ardent desires devoutly and humbly to wait for a season of richer grace. Much less cause have they to be terrified by the doctrine of reprobation, who, though they seriously desire to be turned to God, to please Him only, and to be delivered from the body of death, cannot yet reach that measure of holiness and faith to which they aspire; since a merciful God has promised that He will not quench the smoking flax nor break the bruised reed. But this doctrine is justly terrible to those, who, regardless of God and of the Savior Jesus Christ, have wholly given themselves up to the cares of the world and the pleasures of the flesh, so long as they are not seriously converted to God.

If predestination, single or double, as the post modern Calvinist expounds, the how can anyone give themselves up ?


“ought not to be alarmed at the mention of reprobation, nor to rank themselves among the reprobate”

Article 17

Since we are to judge of the will of God from His Word which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature, but in virtue of the covenant of grace, in which they, together with the parents, are comprehended, godly parents have no reason to doubt of the election and salvation of their children whom it pleaseth God to call out of this life in their infancy.

So some kids get a free pass and can go astray as they please. And there is much evidence that kids do backslide.

Article 18


To those who murmur at the free grace of election and just severity of reprobation, we answer with the apostle: “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?” (Rom. 9:20), and quote the language of our Savior: “Is it not lawful for Me to do what I will with Mine own?” (Matt. 20:15). And therefore with holy adoration of these mysteries, we exclaim in the words of the apostle: “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor? Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen” (Rom. 11:33–36).

For who hath known the mind of the Lord?

The Synod of Dort has several contradictions as shown previously!
The Canons are at odds with John 3:16, Acts 17:30, 1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, Rev. 22:17 and many more!

EmSw said:

I'm beginning to wonder if Calvinists have ever read this. NobodysFool, and others, have vehemently denied that predestination is the heart of Calvinism. Yet, here, bolded and in capital letters, we have:

FIRST HEAD OF DOCTRINE - Of Divine Predestination
These Calvinists have denied that predestination is the FIRST HEAD OF DOCTRINE, as the COD has stated. I'm beginning to think, Calvinists do not know their own beliefs, or they do not hold it to heart, just hold it on their lips.

Click to expand...

I am thinking the same, and this is only the first section of FIVE sections!

This link http://www.chapellibrary.org/files/2314/0484/5803/codo.pdf is good for those wanting some revision.

Posting the first section of the Canon of Dort - the foundation text of Calvinism.

All the text black is copied unchanged in any way from source. This can be verified by googling and checking for oneself.

The colored text is my understanding only. I am not putting words in others mouths, nor twisting nor manipulating the meaning of the source at all. If anyone disagrees with my understanding, fine (or the source text, even better).

Hopefully, even by reading only the source text, Calvinism has been explained.

Jesus said "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:10

You can draw your conclusions only by not taking into account the context of scriptures which you claim contradict the Canons. You will never defeat Calvinism,this way. Stop wasting your time

ToBeLoved said:

That's what they say.

But when they write a long post, I pick up a tone to their writing.

Am I the only one who gets this? I don't think so. It is defeatest. It actually when expressed fully, IMHO, sounds like God is weak. That the minute God is not controlling, He is not IN CONTROL.

That's not accurate at all. That's the underlying tone i see.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you saying God is weak because God is not in complete and total monopolistic control? If so, I challenge that. I think it takes far more talent to govern over a democracy than over a dictatorship. We have genuine freedom and therefore have to decide for ourselves. Good cannot make our decisions for us. Calvin, however, argued otherwise. He believed God predetermined it all.

StanJ said:

I disagree, without God man does many things both famous and infamous. We may be born into sin but we are not enemies of God, in fact we are his children and his word says that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Hebrews 9:27 tells us that it is appointed for man to die once. To me that doesn't look like the wages of sin no longer apply. There also cannot be a permanent change in a man's nature when he's saved when the New Testament tells us men can fall away into apostasy and that there will be a great Falling Away before Jesus returns. We would not be warned to persevere, run the race , or fight the good fight, if we were permanently changed for the better . The only veil that was torn in the New Testament was the one that God tore/ripped from the top to the bottom that separated the holy of holies from man. This signified that was Jesus's death there was no longer any kind of separation between God and man regardless of the status of whether they were sinners saved by grace or sinners not saved by grace, because only God could have torn it. Remember, God so loved the WORLD.

Click to expand...

The context though of Romans 5 is toward the church, not the unsaved world.
So when you read while we were sinners, Christ died for us, that means Christ died for His church, that is Christ died so that believers would have eternal life, not something for the world which does not believe and does not have eternal life.
Yes we were the ungodly Christ died for, the sick ones in need of a doctor, but we have the reconciliation since we believe.

Romans 5New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Triumphs in Trouble
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Christ in Our Place
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Problem is many conflate the world with the church, do not beleive in election or reprobation, none of the doctrines of salvation have any meaning apart from what all scripture inspired of God says about them. That God demonstrates His love towards the US is the church of believers who will be and who are in due time saved, just as Ephesians describes.

See if you can prove that we were not enemies of Christ from scripture in out unsaved state, and and also prove that we are enemies of Christ from scripture in our unsaved state. Scripturally we were enemies and all the unsaved are still enemies. Your own scripture reference in your post clearly points out we were enemies of Christ before being converted.

Anything other than scripture is hearsay evidence, only your opinion.

nobdysfool said:

You can draw your conclusions only by not taking into account the context of scriptures which you claim contradict the Canons. You will never defeat Calvinism,this way. Stop wasting your time

Click to expand...

Can defeating Calvinism ever be considered a waste of time? I think not.