Calvinism, explained.

ToBeLoved · May 2, 2016

Calvinism is one of the most frustrating, IMHO of all Christian doctrine.

<staff edit> I think it is very damaging to Christianity to the extend that TULIP takes it. Ugh!

<staff edit>

Albion · May 2, 2016

Aldebaran said:
That's ok, because the bible is full of examples that can be given. Let's take a popular one: "Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28). If we have to go to Him, then it's obviously something we have to do for Him to give us rest. He doesn't say, "I'll choose you, and then will give you rest".

Actually, that's very much how I'd interpret his statement there--as the offer of a gift.

Patmos · May 2, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
Calvinism is one of the most frustrating, IMHO of all Christian doctrine.

<staff edit> I think it is very damaging to Christianity to the extend that TULIP takes it. Ugh!

<staff edit>

Hi ToBeLoved

I was once so frustrated about all this that I burnt my copy of Calvin's Institutes rather that send it with a load of other books to a charity shop.

I remember once being in fervent debate, outnumbered and outgunned. I made a point - babies being "obnoxious and odious in the sight of God". The top man went to his book case and fished out his copy of the institutes. He thrust it I'm my hand and said "prove it". I reached into my case and fished out my copy, well thumbed and worn out. Lots of bits hi lighted and loads of book marks. It took me less than a second to get straight to the actual text that said this phrase.

Though I won my point and the debate (which was not and is still not my aim), it was fruitless, months and years later, these same guys said the same things. That was back in 1991.

Patmos · May 2, 2016

Some one kick my butt when I do this.

tulipbee · May 2, 2016

Aldebaran said:
To this, the Calvanist would probably say that we can't ask unless God MAKES us ask. This, of course, would beg the question of why Christ would tell us to ask for something if He Himself is in charge of whether or not we ask.

God makes us ask cause he knew we would respond.

ToBeLoved · May 2, 2016

Aldebaran said:
To this, the Calvanist would probably say that we can't ask unless God MAKES us ask. This, of course, would beg the question of why Christ would tell us to ask for something if He Himself is in charge of whether or not we ask.

Or... how about we can't ask unless God makes us ask or until the Holy Spirit prays for what we know not how to pray for our self.

Marvin Knox · May 2, 2016

Aldebaran said:
That's ok, because the bible is full of examples that can be given. Let's take a popular one: "Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28). If we have to go to Him, then it's obviously something we have to do for Him to give us rest. He doesn't say, "I'll choose you, and then will give you rest".

Patmos said:
No but still for everyone -
Luke 11:9-10
"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
Matthew 7:8
Verse Concepts
"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

No Calvinist would deny that these things are true.

Marvin Knox · May 2, 2016

Patmos said:
Note: The determination to punish anyone for his sin is NOT an issues at all. What is an issue is the Calvinist doctrine that God creates men totally depraved, total unable to know God or to repent or to have any remorse or whatever for his sin.

Your problem seems to be with the doctrine of original sin and not Calvinism.

sdowney717 · May 2, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
Or... how about we can't ask unless God makes us ask or until the Holy Spirit prays for what we know not how to pray for our self.

You bring up a very good point of teaching there, notice this is what Romans 8 says.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The Holy Spirit makes intercession, meaning an intervention on our behalf with God according to the will of God.
So truly God is at work behind the scenes of our lives, the groanings which can not be uttered, invisibly imperceptible to us, but they are there.
The Holy Spirit is actively at work in His people and also for those who will become His people. The Holy Spirit is the HE who searches the hearts, and HE, the Spirit, knows what the mind of God is in every situation, since of course HE is God, and all things proceed according to the will of God for us. What a great way Paul teaches here of how much God cares for His own elect who are His, the saved and also those who will become the saved.

Which then Paul tells us how great is our salvation in these following scriptures.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shalltribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?36 As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

ToBeLoved · May 3, 2016

sdowney717 said:
You bring up a very good point of teaching there, notice this is what Romans 8 says.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The Holy Spirit makes intercession, meaning an intervention on our behalf with God according to the will of God.
So truly God is at work behind the scenes of our lives, the groanings which can not be uttered, invisibly imperceptible to us, but they are there.
The Holy Spirit is actively at work in His people and also for those who will become His people. The Holy Spirit is the HE who searches the hearts, and HE, the Spirit, knows what the mind of God is in every situation, since of course HE is God, and all things proceed according to the will of God for us. What a great way Paul teaches here of how much God cares for His own elect who are His, the saved and also those who will become the saved.

Which then Paul tells us how great is our salvation in these following scriptures.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shalltribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?36 As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

These are all really good verses.

Patmos · May 3, 2016

Marvin Knox said:
Your problem seems to be with the doctrine of original sin and not Calvinism.

I was thinking about OS today. Also what does 'Everyone' mean as in "For everyone who asks, receives" of which you say in post 1747 "No Calvinist would deny that these things are true."

The following is from The Canon of Dort.

FIRST HEAD OF DOCTRINE

Of Divine Predestination

Article 1

As all men have sinned in Adam, lie under the curse, and are deserving of eternal death, God would have done no injustice by leaving them all to perish, and delivering them over to condemnation on account of sin, according to the words of the apostle, “that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God” (Rom. 3:19). And verse 23: “For all have sinned, and come short (past tense) of the glory of God.” And Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death.”

“For all HAVE sinned”, in not denied – When did they do this though? Before the foundation of the world or after they left their mother’s womb and gained their own conscience?

Article 2

But in this the love of God was manifested, that He sent His only begotten Son into the world, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. “In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him” (1 John 4:9). “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

“Whosoever believe” – has different interpretations. Calvinists (Cs) in general maintain the ‘whosoever’ can only be an elected person. Non-Calvinists (NCs) go for 'all' meaning 'all'.

And "Everyone' is this everyone of the elect ? I do not see Calvinist agreeing to everyone, but I'll continue in numerical order

Article 3

And that men may be brought to believe, God mercifully sends the messengers of these most joyful tidings to whom He will and at what time He pleaseth; by whose ministry men are called to repentance and faith in Christ crucified. “How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?” (Rom. 10:14–15).

Perhaps because of Rom 2:15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Also Paul speaking of the unknown God Act 17:23

Article 4

The wrath of God abideth upon those who believe not this gospel. But such as receive it, and embrace Jesus the Savior by a true and living faith, are by Him delivered from the wrath of God and from destruction, and have the gift of eternal life conferred upon them.

“receive it” – was this before the foundation of the world. As for those who believe not – why not ? Is it because they were made unable to not believe it by God ? See next article.

Article 5

The cause or guilt of this unbelief, as well as of all other sins, is no wise in God, but in man himself;

( seems that God did not pre-determine unbelief ! OK so far)

whereas faith in Jesus Christ and salvation through Him is the free gift of God, as it is written: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him,” etc. (Phil. 1:29).

Or maybe God did pre-determine unbelief after all by pre-determining all to unbelief and later withholding a gift of belief. Getting a bit ambiguous. E.g if a man sees someone drowning and has access to a life belt. He gets hold of it and destroys it so the drowning man perishes. The first man is guilty of manslaughter and would receive a jail sentence.

Continued in next post

Patmos · May 3, 2016

Article 6

That some receive the gift of faith from God and others do not receive it proceeds from God's eternal decree, for “known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world” (Acts 15:18). “Who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11). According to which decree, He graciously softens the hearts of the elect, however obstinate, and inclines them to believe, while He leaves the non-elect in His just judgment to their own wickedness and obduracy. And herein is especially displayed the profound, the merciful, and at the same time the righteousdiscrimination between men, equally involved in ruin; or that decree of election and reprobation revealed in the Word of God, which though men of perverse, impure and unstable minds wrest to their own destruction, yet to holy and pious souls affords unspeakable consolation.

So the Canons hold to DOUBLE predestination – bizarrely post-modern Cs hold to SINGLE predestination –( Check any previous thread on CF)

Article 6 contradicts the first part of Article 5

Article 5 - "The cause or guilt of this unbelief, .. is no wise in God, but in man himself"

Article 6 - "That some do not receive it proceeds from God's eternal decree… of reprobation"

Article 7

Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He hath out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen, from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from their primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect, and the foundation of salvation.

This elect number, though by nature neither better nor more deserving than others, but with them involved in one common misery, God hath decreed to give to Christ, to be saved by Him, and effectually to call and draw them to His communion by His Word and Spirit, to bestow upon them true faith, justification and sanctification; and having powerfully preserved them in the fellowship of His Son, finally, to glorify them for the demonstration of His mercy and for the praise of His glorious grace, as it is written: “According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved” (Eph. 1:4–6). And elsewhere: “Whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified them He also glorified” (Rom. 8:30).

“which had fallen through their own fault” – big subject in itself.

Were we there at the fall ?
What were you wearing?
what did you personally do?
How old are you now and when was your 200th birthday.
Perhaps you were there, died at say 80 and have now been reincarnated!

Or is it rather no you were not but you inherited the sin of Adam and Eve instead?
Seems Dort has a problem with OS - not me.

Why do the Canons miss Romans 8 29 ?

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

OK lets forget the red bit as it give the Arminian an easy win BUT Is there anything here about pre-determination to life or death, salvation or reprobation ? Nope. What it actually say is a group – the red bit – is predestined to be conformed to the image of his son – it refers ONLY to saved people.

Continued next post

Patmos · May 3, 2016

Article 8

There are not various decrees of election, but one and the same decree respecting all those who shall be saved, both under the Old and New Testament; since the Scripture declares the good pleasure, purpose and counsel of the divine will to be one, according to which He hath chosen us from eternity, both to grace and glory, to salvation and the way of salvation, which He hath ordained that we should walk therein.

“There are not various decrees of election.”

Incorrect, we have just read of TWO different decrees.
A)Some to salvation and
B) the masses to reprobation – eternal hell.

Article 9

This election was not founded upon foreseen faith, and the obedience of faith, holiness, or any other good quality or disposition in man, as the prerequisite, cause or condition on which it depended; but men are chosen to faith and to the obedience of faith, holiness, etc.; therefore election is the fountain of every saving good, from which proceeds faith, holiness, and the other gifts of salvation, and finally eternal life itself, as its fruits and effects, according to that of the apostle: “He hath chosen us [not because we were but] that we should be holy, and without blame, before Him in love” (Eph. 1:4).

Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew Romans 8!

However – Foreseen faith, is this not just a different form of Pre determination by God. God set all the circumstances that man finds himself in – did he ask to inherit sin (although Article 7 does not recognise OS), So God could of pre-set different circumstances for a different outcome.

Jacob Arminius did not support foreseen faith, maybe his followers did after he had died or maybe this was a straw man setup by the judges at Dort (yes they were judges).

Patmos · May 3, 2016

Article 10

The good pleasure of God is the sole cause of this gracious election, which doth not consist herein, that out of all possible qualities and actions of men God has chosen some as a condition of salvation; but that He was pleased out of the common mass of sinners to adopt some certain persons as a peculiar people to Himself, as it is written, “For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,” etc., it was said (namely to Rebecca): “The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Rom. 9:11-13). “And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48).

And Josephs brothers, not to forget Pharaoh. This is design a dogma and cherry pick one's proof text while applying blinkers to everything else.

Article 11

And as God Himself is most wise, unchangeable, omniscient and omnipotent, so the election made by Him can neither be interrupted nor changed, recalled or annulled; neither can the elect be cast away, nor their number diminished.

And given that all this was pre-determined prior to the foundation of the world, a point that has been made thousands of times - "what is the point of intercessory prayer?". It cannot change anything.

To be continued.

For many people – Lutherans, Orthodox, Catholics, The majority of Protestants, even some types of Calvinism - the Canons lose any coherency at:

Article 5 - "The cause or guilt of this unbelief, .. is no wise in God, but in man himself"

But no, instead:

Article 6 - "That some do not receive it proceeds from God's eternal decree… of reprobation"

So, which is it ?

( Later on The Canons mention “Author of sin” which I hope to get to soon)

Rawtheran · May 3, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
Calvinism is one of the most frustrating, IMHO of all Christian doctrine.

<staff edit> I think it is very damaging to Christianity to the extend that TULIP takes it. Ugh!

<staff edit>

This! And just to add some of my own input not only is it frustrating, but is perhaps one of the greatest lies to ever hit the Christian faith next to the selling of indulgences or that someone can attain salvation of they fought and died in the holy crusades.

ToBeLoved · May 3, 2016

Rawtheran said:
This! And just to add some of my own input not only is it frustrating, but is perhaps one of the greatest lies to ever hit the Christian faith next to the selling of indulgences or that someone can attain salvation of they fought and died in the holy crusades.

All of creation testifies that there is a God.

Romans 1:19-23
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 2 1 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

EmSw · May 3, 2016

Patmos said:
I was thinking about OS today. Also what does 'Everyone' mean as in "For everyone who asks, receives" of which you say in post 1747 "No Calvinist would deny that these things are true."

The following is from The Canon of Dort.

FIRST HEAD OF DOCTRINE

Of Divine Predestination

Article 1

As all men have sinned in Adam, lie under the curse, and are deserving of eternal death, God would have done no injustice by leaving them all to perish, and delivering them over to condemnation on account of sin, according to the words of the apostle, “that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God” (Rom. 3:19). And verse 23: “For all have sinned, and come short (past tense) of the glory of God.” And Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death.”

“For all HAVE sinned”, in not denied – When did they do this though? Before the foundation of the world or after they left their mother’s womb and gained their own conscience?

I'm beginning to wonder if Calvinists have ever read this. NobodysFool, and others, have vehemently denied that predestination is the heart of Calvinism. Yet, here, bolded and in capital letters, we have:

FIRST HEAD OF DOCTRINE

Of Divine Predestination

These Calvinists have denied that predestination is the FIRST HEAD OF DOCTRINE, as the COD has stated. I'm beginning to think, Calvinists do not know their own beliefs, or they do not hold it to heart, just hold it on their lips.

tulipbee · May 3, 2016

EmSw said:
I'm beginning to wonder if Calvinists have ever read this. NobodysFool, and others, have vehemently denied that predestination is the heart of Calvinism. Yet, here, bolded and in capital letters, we have:

FIRST HEAD OF DOCTRINE

Of Divine Predestination

These Calvinists have denied that predestination is the FIRST HEAD OF DOCTRINE, as the COD has stated. I'm beginning to think, Calvinists do not know their own beliefs, or they do not hold it to heart, just hold it on their lips.

God's first thought was predestination. The heart of the very first plan

EmSw · May 3, 2016

tulipbee said:
God's first thought was predestination. The heart of the very first plan

Thank you for agreeing with me, that predestination is the heart of Calvinism.

tulipbee · May 3, 2016

EmSw said:
Thank you for agreeing with me, that predestination is the heart of Calvinism.

God is the center

Calvinism, explained.

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