Calvinism, explained.

ToBeLoved · Mar 28, 2016

Marvin Knox said:
Again - I'm not exactly where you are coming from here.

Salvation is by faith. I have never said otherwise. Neither has any so called Calvinist held a position other than that (that I am aware of).

Why would God even demand anything. If it is predestined why wouldn't He just pass out the Holy Spirit on some because He predestined and wanted to?

Why even put faith that we have no free will to do, as a criteria at all?

Where is the logic, in your opinion? Isn't it irresistable, which means one CANNOT resist. Sounds like a slam dunk to me. Since that is their stand. It had to happen, God predestined it. God is the one, not us.

It is interesting how when logic is brought into it they cannot explain the logic of it.

jimmyjimmy · Mar 28, 2016

EmSw said:
I would be happy to do so.

Glad to hear it, because this going round in circles is getting crazy.

jimmyjimmy · Mar 28, 2016

EmSw said:
If God's counsel of His own will is unsearchable, how did these men come up with this stuff? Were they given 'special' revelation just as the gnostics believe they are?

The mystery is in why one and not the other, which is what this thread is about. . .

They are not claiming more knowledge that anyone else to could have by opening a Bible and reading it.

jimmyjimmy · Mar 28, 2016

EmSw said:
I would be happy to do so.

Here we go! We already agree on the first three points, so lets look at point #4 a person is free to do whatever they desire? I'm hopeful that we can agree on this one easily, but the 5th point might be a but tougher.

That a person is not forced from the outside to make a choice?
That a person is responsible for his or her choices?
That a person is the active agent in a choice made?
That a person is free to do whatever they desire?
That a person has the ability to choose contrary to their nature (who they are)?

Point 4: A person is free to do whatever they desire?

I know that schools essentially lie to children and tell them that they can do anything that they set their minds to, but it simply is not true. We have all types of limitations that prevent us from doing anything that we desire. My example earlier, that you are not free to live underwater like a fish proves my point. I know that you don't desire it, but I'm certain there is some wing nut out there who does. But, let's not go that extreme.

Can a 4' tall man play football for the Cowboys if he desires to?

Can an woman with an IQ of 75 be a grandmaster of chess if she desires to?

I desire to play the piano exactly like Oscar Peterson right now. I really do, but I've never taken a lesson in my life.

I could give 1,000 of these, but please don't make me. Please agree that just because we desire to do something does not mean that we a free to do it. OK?

Then we will be 80% in agreement.

Marvin Knox · Mar 28, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
Why would God even demand anything. If it is predestined why wouldn't He just pass out the Holy Spirit on some because He predestined and wanted to?

Why even put faith that we have no free will to do, as a criteria at all?

Where is the logic, in your opinion? Isn't it irresistable, which means one CANNOT resist. Sounds like a slam dunk to me. Since that is their stand. It had to happen, God predestined it. God is the one, not us.

It is interesting how when logic is brought into it they cannot explain the logic of it.

You are obviously mistaking me for someone who has posted supporting the 5-points of Calvinism. I am not.

You also seem to equate predestination with election. The two doctrines are not the same even though they do reflect in some ways on each other in studies of each.

As a reminder to you - I have said time and again that predestination does not in any way eliminate the so called free will of men.

The logic of my particular positions is concise and accurate. I can't speak for the positions of everyone else though.

EmSw · Mar 28, 2016

thatbrian said:
Here we go! We already agree on the first three points, so lets look at point #4 a person is free to do whatever they desire? I'm hopeful that we can agree on this one easily, but the 5th point might be a but tougher.

That a person is not forced from the outside to make a choice?

That a person is responsible for his or her choices?

That a person is the active agent in a choice made?

That a person is free to do whatever they desire?

That a person has the ability to choose contrary to their nature (who they are)?

Point 4: A person is free to do whatever they desire?

I know that schools essentially lie to children and tell them that they can do anything that they set their minds to, but it simply is not true. We have all types of limitations that prevent us from doing anything that we desire. My example earlier, that you are not free to live underwater like a fish proves my point. I know that you don't desire it, but I'm certain there is some wing nut out there who does. But, let's not go that extreme.

No, let's not go there; let's stick with the free will concerning God and His word.

thatbrian said:
Can a 4' tall man play football for the Cowboys if he desires to?

Probably not, because of physical limitations, but he can treat all of the Cowboy players as Jesus taught if he desires.

thatbrian said:
Can an woman with an IQ of 75 be a grandmaster of chess if she desires to?

Unlikely, however, she is able to love all grandmasters and not hate them if she desires.

thatbrian said:
I desire to play the piano exactly like Oscar Peterson right now. I really do, but I've never taken a lesson in my life.

Good for you, I admire your aspiration. I really do. However, if you see the hungry, you are able to feed them; if you see the thirsty, you are able to give them drink, If you know someone in the hospital, you are able to visit them.

thatbrian said:
I could give 1,000 of these, but please don't make me. Please agree that just because we desire to do something does not mean that we a free to do it. OK?

Then we will be 80% in agreement.

You can save yourself the time and not give them. With physical desires, I will agree with you.

With spiritual desires, we are able to do them. If we desire, we can keep His commandments, we can love others and treat them as we desire them to treat us. Every person is able to tell the truth and not lie. Every person is able to keep himself pure and not commit fornication. Every married person is able to be faithful to his/her spouse and not commit adultery.

EmSw · Mar 28, 2016

Marvin Knox said:
As a reminder to you - I have said time and again that predestination does not in any way eliminate the so called free will of men.

Here again, you want to make us think you believe in free will, when you don't. Why not tell ToBeLoved you believe in limited free will?

ToBeLoved · Mar 28, 2016

EmSw said:
Here again, you want to make us think you believe in free will, when you don't. Why not tell ToBeLoved you believe in limited free will?

I will ask, thank you, if I have a question.

EmSw · Mar 28, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
I will ask, thank you, if I have a question.

I am sorry I said something in a public forum. Please forgive me for irritating you.

jimmyjimmy · Mar 28, 2016

EmSw said:
No, let's not go there; let's stick with the free will concerning God and His word.

Probably not, because of physical limitations, but he can treat all of the Cowboy players as Jesus taught if he desires.

Unlikely, however, she is able to love all grandmasters and not hate them if she desires.

Good for you, I admire your aspiration. I really do. However, if you see the hungry, you are able to feed them; if you see the thirsty, you are able to give them drink, If you know someone in the hospital, you are able to visit them.

You can save yourself the time and not give them. With physical desires, I will agree with you.

With spiritual desires, we are able to do them. If we desire, we can keep His commandments, we can love others and treat them as we desire them to treat us. Every person is able to tell the truth and not lie. Every person is able to keep himself pure and not commit fornication. Every married person is able to be faithful to his/her spouse and not commit adultery.

Your replies have nothing to do with freewill; however, they clearly show that I won't be able to have this type of discussion with you.

EmSw · Mar 28, 2016

thatbrian said:
Your replies have nothing to do with freewill; however, they do show that I won't be able to have this type of discussion with you.

Really? A person doesn't have to freely choose to do the things Jesus said? Really?

I wonder sometimes how Calvinists come up their kind of thinking.

But, as others before you, you have my blessings to leave.

Marvin Knox · Mar 28, 2016

EmSw said:
Here again, you want to make us think you believe in free will, when you don't. Why not tell ToBeLoved you believe in limited free will?

Obviously I believe in "limited" free will. How often do I have to say it?

That's why I usually put "free will" in quotes or just say something like the will of fallen man and leave out the "free" part when talking about the subject.

Notice the "so called" included in my statement which you quoted about free will.

Do you read my posts at all?

Of course you do. You just insist on misrepresenting what I and others believe (read "lying" about me and others).

You've been asked time and time again to not do that. You insist on doing it anyway.

nobdysfool · Mar 28, 2016

Really? A person doesn't have to freely choose to do the things Jesus said? Really?

I wonder sometimes how Calvinists come up their kind of thinking.

But, as others before you, you have my blessings to leave.

Typical, and predictable....

EmSw · Mar 28, 2016

nobdysfool said:
Typical, and predictable....

Is is predictable that, once a Calvinist has no desire to answer, they will leave.

I see you have noticed that too.

Marvin Knox · Mar 28, 2016

EmSw said:
Is is predictable that, once a Calvinist has no desire to answer, they will leave.

I see you have noticed that too.

They usually leave at the point when they can no longer stomach your duplicity.

I'm not a Calvinist. But I usually stick it out with you for the same amount of time.

jimmyjimmy · Mar 28, 2016

Marvin Knox said:
They usually leave at the point when they can no longer stomach your duplicity.

I'm not a Calvinist. But I usually stick it out with you for the same amount of time.

I agree. I've pushed the "magic button".

EmSw · Mar 28, 2016

Marvin Knox said:
They usually leave at the point when they can no longer stomach your duplicity.

I'm not a Calvinist. But I usually stick it out with you for the same amount of time.

How admirable, you decide to stick it out for as long as you do. All I keep seeing is you do things within your own freedom.

You guys are such nice people. I wish I could be as nice as you all are.

EmSw · Mar 28, 2016

thatbrian said:
I agree. I've pushed the "magic button".

Does that make you proud of your doing?

Marvin Knox · Mar 28, 2016

EmSw said:
How admirable, you decide to stick it out for as long as you do. All I keep seeing is you do things within your own freedom.

You guys are such nice people. I wish I could be as nice as you all are.

I can't speak to what you consider "nice".

But I will say that I try not to misrepresent what you say. That would be the same as lying about you.

I may not think that my salvation depends on not lying - as you seem to think it does.

But I still will answer for lying and I'm careful not to do it when ever I'm tempted.

ClothedInGrace · Mar 28, 2016

I'm not trying to get into any discussion (I haven't been very helpful), but I found this web article very accurate in describing what I as a Reformed Christian believe.

http://www.reformedreader.org/t.u.l.i.p.htm

I want to stress the fact that there is no need for division just because we don't share the same views on mankind's nature or God's sovereignty. I was not saved Reformed, but rather with a simple belief in Jesus Christ as my savior. I hope there can be unity and friendliness on this thread.

God bless.

Calvinism, explained.

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