[Continued from previous post]
Biblical love is the same as practical love: a condition, not an emotion, though the latter may arise from the former. All I can think of when you say 'otherwise' is reference to Esau and Jacob, and the very reformed view of unconditional election. If God is love, He cannot with-hold His love. He can, however, reveal it in different aspects, of which are utterly beyond our comprehension. I also do not believe that God will be eternally disappointed if a person goes to Hell, assuming the arminian bent to be somewhat correct. He will firstly find respect for the person's freedom, as it was that which kept him away from God; sadness may follow, but as J.P. Moreland argues, the human soul is of such a depth that it can easily hold a faint amount of sadness with its otherwise overwhelming joy without the former superseding the latter. As Lewis argued so very brilliantly, Hell does not have veto power over Heaven; that is, those in Hell will not prevent those in Heaven from enjoying their eternal salvation. The only way this can actualize is if Hell is, as Chesterton argued, the ultimate respect for human freedom, or if universalism is true.
I believe I meant this on the basis of the contingency of God's universal love; honestly, I cannot find where I said that (tee hee -- we like to express ourselves).
Hmmmm, perhaps I am mixing up terms here. Do you consider 'likeness' and 'image', in scripture, to be one and the same? If so, I should have said, in my response to you, "a child made in my very image...," for this is what I meant. Anways, consider this: it would have been mercy to the remainder of the world if indeed God had justice on Adam and Eve, and destroyed them on the spot. By so doing, the great majority claimed by Calvinism to be condemned to Hell will not even exist, nor will those who would eventually come to salvation. My point is that God seems to have a long term goal for mankind, with the sinfulness of man in mind; I believe we take it out of context when we argue that man deserves condemnation as soon as he falls from perfection if indeed it is impossible for humanity with freedom to exist eternally without choosing evil. Of course, this is all philosophical jargon. But if God created man with the knowledge that it is impossible for man to live forever without choosing evil, would not His justice be formed in accordance with such knowledge?
Hmmm, perhaps I should make known to you that I see mercy and justice as one and the same thing -- both of the love of God. A man who commits an unpardonable offence, and given mercy, only harms him; justice is what makes him a better man -- in a sense, this justice is mercy in disguise. If God loves all, this seems to follow. And actually, there are instances when justice and mercy interlock, as with the case of Adam and Eve: they were kicked out of the garden, but they were allowed to live. And, in the eternal long run, this justice finds fulfillment in mercy: they bask in the lessons learned from momentary faults in the midst of everlasting blessedness.
See way above; the heart is synonymous with the will, is synonymous with the spirit, according to one school of theology. The mind is acompletely different aspect of the person, though the mind cannot work without the heart.
I blame Adam.
I follow the old fashioned Hobbesian understanding of guilt and law: that men can only be held accountable if there is a law they know exists prohibiting them to commit such an action.
The point of reading the bible is spiritual formation: the process by which our human heart (or spirit, or will) is given a definite form or character. With this comes renovation of the mind, soul, and the body; and with this trasformation comes that much more peace and blessedness.
If they don't know, they are still guilty, for they have still sinned. As I said before, you can sin without law:
"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." -- Romans 2:14-16 (NASB)
The very act of sin is a very simple concept to grasp: it is acting contrary to that which you know to be right. Now, certain behavior may be right, but one may be unknowing of it. As Paul states:
"What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." -- Romans 7:7-12 (NASB)
Remember also, believers are the only ones who read the bible with interest, and their sins are covered by Christ; non-believers who read it and feel conviction to follow certain acts may very well not be non-believers; they must first be convinced that what they hold in their hands is the infallible word of God, and to do so they must believe that the God of the bible is the God of Christianity. Without such, do you honestly believe they take the entire word of God seriously? I doubt it. They may find a peculiar presence in Christ that they cannot deny (I always loved Einstein's expression: "The luminous Nazarene"), but until they find Him to be who He truly is, the other claims in the bible will be of little or no signifigance to them. Thus they are not held accountable. This, of course, does not mean they are not held accountable for denying the character of Christ in a completed stance.
Biblical love is the same as practical love: a condition, not an emotion, though the latter may arise from the former. All I can think of when you say 'otherwise' is reference to Esau and Jacob, and the very reformed view of unconditional election. If God is love, He cannot with-hold His love. He can, however, reveal it in different aspects, of which are utterly beyond our comprehension. I also do not believe that God will be eternally disappointed if a person goes to Hell, assuming the arminian bent to be somewhat correct. He will firstly find respect for the person's freedom, as it was that which kept him away from God; sadness may follow, but as J.P. Moreland argues, the human soul is of such a depth that it can easily hold a faint amount of sadness with its otherwise overwhelming joy without the former superseding the latter. As Lewis argued so very brilliantly, Hell does not have veto power over Heaven; that is, those in Hell will not prevent those in Heaven from enjoying their eternal salvation. The only way this can actualize is if Hell is, as Chesterton argued, the ultimate respect for human freedom, or if universalism is true.
I believe I meant this on the basis of the contingency of God's universal love; honestly, I cannot find where I said that (tee hee -- we like to express ourselves).
Hmmmm, perhaps I am mixing up terms here. Do you consider 'likeness' and 'image', in scripture, to be one and the same? If so, I should have said, in my response to you, "a child made in my very image...," for this is what I meant. Anways, consider this: it would have been mercy to the remainder of the world if indeed God had justice on Adam and Eve, and destroyed them on the spot. By so doing, the great majority claimed by Calvinism to be condemned to Hell will not even exist, nor will those who would eventually come to salvation. My point is that God seems to have a long term goal for mankind, with the sinfulness of man in mind; I believe we take it out of context when we argue that man deserves condemnation as soon as he falls from perfection if indeed it is impossible for humanity with freedom to exist eternally without choosing evil. Of course, this is all philosophical jargon. But if God created man with the knowledge that it is impossible for man to live forever without choosing evil, would not His justice be formed in accordance with such knowledge?
Hmmm, perhaps I should make known to you that I see mercy and justice as one and the same thing -- both of the love of God. A man who commits an unpardonable offence, and given mercy, only harms him; justice is what makes him a better man -- in a sense, this justice is mercy in disguise. If God loves all, this seems to follow. And actually, there are instances when justice and mercy interlock, as with the case of Adam and Eve: they were kicked out of the garden, but they were allowed to live. And, in the eternal long run, this justice finds fulfillment in mercy: they bask in the lessons learned from momentary faults in the midst of everlasting blessedness.
See way above; the heart is synonymous with the will, is synonymous with the spirit, according to one school of theology. The mind is acompletely different aspect of the person, though the mind cannot work without the heart.
I blame Adam.
I follow the old fashioned Hobbesian understanding of guilt and law: that men can only be held accountable if there is a law they know exists prohibiting them to commit such an action.
The point of reading the bible is spiritual formation: the process by which our human heart (or spirit, or will) is given a definite form or character. With this comes renovation of the mind, soul, and the body; and with this trasformation comes that much more peace and blessedness.
If they don't know, they are still guilty, for they have still sinned. As I said before, you can sin without law:
"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." -- Romans 2:14-16 (NASB)
The very act of sin is a very simple concept to grasp: it is acting contrary to that which you know to be right. Now, certain behavior may be right, but one may be unknowing of it. As Paul states:
"What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." -- Romans 7:7-12 (NASB)
Remember also, believers are the only ones who read the bible with interest, and their sins are covered by Christ; non-believers who read it and feel conviction to follow certain acts may very well not be non-believers; they must first be convinced that what they hold in their hands is the infallible word of God, and to do so they must believe that the God of the bible is the God of Christianity. Without such, do you honestly believe they take the entire word of God seriously? I doubt it. They may find a peculiar presence in Christ that they cannot deny (I always loved Einstein's expression: "The luminous Nazarene"), but until they find Him to be who He truly is, the other claims in the bible will be of little or no signifigance to them. Thus they are not held accountable. This, of course, does not mean they are not held accountable for denying the character of Christ in a completed stance.
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