Calvinism and predestination.

[A New Dawn]

That's why you have the word "all." And you shouldn't need any quantifiers such as "humanity." If so the English language would be even more convoluted than it is. Like this explanation is going to satisfy anyone.

Part of being able to interpret the Bible is knowing what the Bible says in its completeness on any subject, not just at what an isolated verse or two say. How do you reconcile the verses you quoted with John 3:16, which clearly says that only those who believe on Christ will be saved?

John 6 makes it clear that only those whom the Father draws (drags) to Christ will be saved. That says to me that there is an elect population since not all are drawn to Christ.

 

[heymikey80]

First off I don't want anyone to think my only purpose to to be contentious but if God chose some to salvation and not others then what about these verses:
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

"all men" is the Greek phrase for "Greeks and barbarians", or "civilized and uncivilized" -- that is, all mankind. It isn't the phrase for each & every individual.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

"all" is an adjective. It modifies a noun. Here, I'll highlight the noun it modifies in the verse:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.
​

2 Pt 3:9 is talking about "all of us", not everyone in the whole wide world. Otherwise God would have some backpedalling to do in the case of, say, 2 Pt 3:3-7 (what? not patient enough for these guys?) or the case of 2 Pt 2:1,4-8.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

How can God be Sovereign if He is not free to will all men to salvation?

 

[heymikey80]

How can God be Sovereign if He is not free to will all men to salvation?

How can God be free if He is not sovereign over His own freedom to choose what He wills to save of this creation?

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

How can God be free if He is not sovereign over His own freedom to choose what He wills to save of this creation?

What is the basis of His rejection if all men qualify for rejection? This is making a chess game for a mechanical Terminator God who rejoices in saving some while not reaching out for the others. This is not the God of love but of mere philosophy.

 

[mlqurgw]

What is the basis of His rejection if all men qualify for rejection? This is making a chess game for a mechanical Terminator God who rejoices in saving some while not reaching out for the others. This is not the God of love but of mere philosophy.

The basis of rejection is the sin of those rejected. God's love does not obligate Him to love all alike or even love all. He, because He is God and not man, has the right to do as He wishes with all His creation. Man does not have that right because nothing but sin actually belongs to him. Man is obligated in everything he does. Not so with God. Many make God in the image of man instead of the other way around. That is truly a god of philosophy. BTW love doesn't define God it is one of His attributes. He is also just and jealous, good and holy, merciful and mighty, etc. To define God as love is to blow up one part of Him out of proportion to the rest. His love cannot destroy His justness or righteousness. His mercy cannot negate truth. But they can meet only in one way and in one Person. Psa. 85:10

 

[pawnraider]

Just thought of this verse.
Acts 10:34 (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

If God elects some and not others doesn't Peter here throw a wrench in the works?

 

[A New Dawn]

Just thought of this verse.
Acts 10:34 (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

If God elects some and not others doesn't Peter here throw a wrench in the works?

That part of the scriptures is not talking about election, but talking about the gospel going out to everyone in the world, not being restricted to the Jews. The next verse gives a clear demonstration of what verse 34 is talking about.

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

 

[Elderone]

the Father draws (drags) to Christ will be saved.

No one is dragged to Christ, they are drawn as first stated.


From the Shorter Catechism question 31:

[FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=+1] Q:[FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif] What is effectual calling?
[FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=+1] A: [FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=+1] Effectual calling is the work of God's Spirit,1 whereby, convincing us of our sin and misery,2 enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ,3 and renewing our wills,4 he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, freely offered to us in the gospel.5[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=+1][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=+1][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=+1]

[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

Note the words convincing, enlightening, renewing, and persuade, which do not, in my opinion, mean dragging, arm twisting, etc.

 

[A New Dawn]

No one is dragged to Christ, they are drawn as first stated.


From the Shorter Catechism question 31:



Note the words convincing, enlightening, renewing, and persuade, which do not, in my opinion, mean dragging, arm twisting, etc.

You need to argue with the Greeks, not with me. They are the ones who used the word that means 'drag' where it is translated 'draw'.

I know that my testimony is that God dragged me. He dragged me several places. Once it was kicking and screaming. But no matter how much I opposed Him, He got me to where He wanted me.

 

[bradfordl]

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

Both times 'draw' is interpreted from the Greek word:

ἑλκύω, ἕλκω
helkuō helkō
hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.

 

[Elderone]

More information in addition to bradford's post.

Concerning the Greek, "draw" is valid.

G1670
helkuo? helko?
hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.

G138
aihreomai
hahee-reh'-om-ahee
Probably akin to G142; to take for oneself, that is, to prefer.

G142
airo?
ah'ee-ro
A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

G1667
helisso?
hel-is'-so
A form of G1507; to coil or wrap: - fold up.

G1507
heilisso?
hi-lis'-so
A prolonged form of a primary but defective verb åé??ëù heilo? (of the same meaning); to coil or wrap: - roll together.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, unless the Father, who hath sent me, draw him (G1670); and I will raise him up at the last day.


A portion of the commentary of this passage by John Calvin:

Unless the Father draw him. (b)ut that God bestows this grace on those whom he has elected. True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force;
but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant.