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Calvinism and Evangelism

drstevej

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Well, to inaugurate this subforum. Let me ask a question that is theological and practical.

Q: Doesn't Calvinism's doctrine of Election and Predestination stiffle one's motivation and diligence in doing evangelism? Afterall, if they are predestined they'll get saved and if they are not, they won't... so why get all worked up about it when we can't make a difference?
 

frumanchu

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drstevej said:
Well, to inaugurate this subforum. Let me ask a question that is theological and practical.

Q: Doesn't Calvinism's doctrine of Election and Predestination stiffle one's motivation and diligence in doing evangelism? Afterall, if they are predestined they'll get saved and if they are not, they won't... so why get all worked up about it when we can't make a difference?

The short version is that we are commanded to by Christ Himself (Mt. 28:18-20) and as such are morally obligated to do so (John 14:15).

The preaching of the Word is the means which God has ordained to bring men to faith in Christ Jesus (Rom 10:17). No man knows the heart of any man, nor do we know who God has elected. As Spurgeon has said, "If God would have painted a yellow stripe on the backs of the elect I would go around lifting shirts. But since He didn't I must preach `whosoever will' and when `whosoever' believes I know he is one of the elect."

There is much more to be said on the issue, but that should get us started :)
 
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Gabriel

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frumanchu said:
"If God would have painted a yellow stripe on the backs of the elect I would go around lifting shirts.

Man Arrested for Bizarre Behavior
Said one victim, "I was just standing there minding my own business and this dude comes up and starts pawing at my shirt. He said something about my birthmark and offered to pray with me. It was very disturbing."


Seriously, God gives us the great privilege of being used by Him to spread His word. In exercising this privilege, we learn more and understand more about Him and draw closer to Him. Also, I believe that God has commanded us to do this as a means of spreading "common grace" among the world, providing for the poor and causing us to develop ministries that help those who would otherwise be ignored.
 
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Blackhawk

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drstevej said:
Well, to inaugurate this subforum. Let me ask a question that is theological and practical.

Q: Doesn't Calvinism's doctrine of Election and Predestination stiffle one's motivation and diligence in doing evangelism? Afterall, if they are predestined they'll get saved and if they are not, they won't... so why get all worked up about it when we can't make a difference?

I like all the other responses except I do not want a yellow stripe. :)

However I think that even if one is an Arminian, like I was not too long ago, one still has to deal with the same kind of problem that you mention. This is because to my knowledge both believe that man is not the one who saves anyone. The Holy Spirit is the one who works on the heart of man. WE are always the instruments that God uses. It is not like I am so important that if I do not go to such a such a place someone will not hear the good news. So the question then for all Christians is why evangelize when god will evangelize with or without us. I think the difference between Calvinists and ARminians is if God set up the world so that man can reject God's call or not. Does God fail in his attempt to evagelize? It is the whole sovereignty of God vs. free will of man argument. But in the end all believe that it is God who evangelizes butwho does it most of the time through creaturely properties. (humans)

So in summary for Christians the working out of the great commission does not prosper or fail because of believers not evangelizing. No if we did not evangelize he would get the rocks to do it. So in many respects for Calvinists or Arminians OUR evangelism does not make the difference. God does!
 
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HeDied4Me

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Blackhawk said:
So in summary for Christians the working out of the great commission does not prosper or fail because of believers not evangelizing. No if we did not evangelize he would get the rocks to do it. So in many respects for Calvinists or Arminians OUR evangelism does not make the difference. God does!

Yes, exactly. God does not put other people's salvation in our hands... Otherwise, if we didn't evangelize we might be the cause of many people going to Hell who might otherwise have been saved if we had talked to them. So even an Arminian (unless he believes that his actions could mean that someone else will go to Hell who could possibly have been saved) still has only the same motivation as the Calvinist to evangelize: God commands and we obey. God doesn't need our help, but He chooses to use us to fulfill His plan.
 
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cygnusx1

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T IS A GREAT THING to begin the Christian life by believing good solid doctrine. Some people have received twenty different "gospels" in as many years; how many more they will accept before they get to their journey's end, it would be difficult to predict. I thank God that He early taught me the gospel, and I have been so perfectly satisfied with it, that I do not want to know any other. Constant change of creed is sure loss. If a tree has to be taken up two or three times a year, you will not need to build a very large loft in which to store the apples. When people are always shifting their doctrinal principles, they are not likely to bring forth much fruit to the glory of God. It is good for young believers to begin with a firm hold upon those great fundamental doctrines which the Lord has taught in His Word. Why, if I believed what some preach about the temporary, trumpery salvation which only lasts for a time, I would scarcely be at all grateful for it; but when I know that those whom God saves He saves with an everlasting salvation, when I know that He gives to them an everlasting righteousness, when I know that He settles them on an everlasting foundation of everlasting love, and that He will bring them to His everlasting kingdom, oh, then I do wonder, and I am astonished that such a blessing as this should ever have been given to me!

"Pause, my soul! adore, and wonder!
Ask, 'Oh, why such love to me?'
Grace hath put me in the number
Of the Saviour's family:
Hallelujah!
Thanks, eternal thanks, to Thee!"
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I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will. I can only say that mine inclines as naturally towards the doctrines of sovereign grace. Sometimes, when I see some of the worst characters in the street, I feel as if my heart must burst forth in tears of gratitude that God has never let me act as they have done! I have thought, if God had left me alone, and had not touched me by His grace, what a great sinner I should have been! I should have run to the utmost lengths of sin, dived into the very depths of evil, nor should I have stopped at any vice or folly, if God had not restrained me. I feel that I should have been a very king of sinners, if God had let me alone. I cannot understand the reason why I am saved, except upon the ground that God would have it so. I cannot, if I look ever so earnestly, discover any kind of reason in myself why I should be a partaker of Divine grace. If I am not at this moment without Christ, it is only because Christ Jesus would have His will with me, and that will was that I should be with Him where He is, and should share His glory. I can put the crown nowhere but upon the head of Him whose mighty grace has saved me from going down into the pit. Looking back on my past life, I can see that the dawning of it all was of God; of God effectively. I took no torch with which to light the sun, but the sun enlightened me. I did not commence my spiritual life—no, I rather kicked, and struggled against the things of the Spirit: when He drew me, for a time I did not run after Him: there was a natural hatred in my soul of everything holy and good. Wooings were lost upon me—warnings were cast to the wind—thunders were despised; and as for the whispers of His love, they were rejected as being less than nothing and vanity. But, sure I am, I can say now, speaking on behalf of myself, "He only is my salvation." It was He who turned my heart, and brought me down on my knees before Him. I can in very deed, say with Doddridge and Toplady—



"Grace taught my soul to pray,
And made my eyes o'erflow;"
and coming to this moment, I can add—



"'Tis grace has kept me to this day,
And will not let me go."
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Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul—when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man—that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God. One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment—I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."
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I once attended a service where the text happened to be, "He shall choose our inheritance for us;" and the good man who occupied the pulpit was more than a little of an Arminian. Therefore, when he commenced, he said, "This passage refers entirely to our temporal inheritance, it has nothing whatever to do with our everlasting destiny, for," said he, "we do not want Christ to choose for us in the matter of Heaven or hell. It is so plain and easy, that every man who has a grain of common sense will choose Heaven, and any person would know better than to choose hell. We have no need of any superior intelligence, or any greater Being, to choose Heaven or hell for us. It is left to our own free-will, and we have enough wisdom given us, sufficiently correct means to judge for ourselves," and therefore, as he very logically inferred, there was no necessity for Jesus Christ, or anyone, to make a choice for us. We could choose the inheritance for ourselves without any assistance. "Ah!" I thought, "but, my good brother, it may be very true that we could, but I think we should want something more than common sense before we should choose aright."
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First, let me ask, must we not all of us admit an over-ruling Providence, and the appointment of Jehovah's hand, as to the means whereby we came into this world? Those men who think that, afterwards, we are left to our own free-will to choose this one or the other to direct our steps, must admit that our entrance into the world was not of our own will, but that God had then to choose for us. What circumstances were those in our power which led us to elect certain persons to be our parents? Had we anything to do with it? Did not God Himself appoint our parents, native place, and friends? Could He not have caused me to be born with the skin of the Hottentot, brought forth by a filthy mother who would nurse me in her "kraal," and teach me to bow down to Pagan gods, quite as easily as to have given me a pious mother, who would each morning and night bend her knee in prayer on my behalf? Or, might He not, if He had pleased, have given me some profligate to have been my parent, from whose lips I might have early heard fearful, filthy, and obscene language? Might He not have placed me where I should have had a drunken father, who would have immured me in a very dungeon of ignorance, and brought me up in the chains of crime? Was it not God's Providence that I had so happy a lot, that both my parents were His children, and endeavoured to train me up in the fear of the Lord?
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John Newton used to tell a whimsical story, and laugh at it, too, of a good woman who said, in order to prove the doctrine of election, "Ah! sir, the Lord must have loved me before I was born, or else He would not have seen anything in me to love afterwards." I am sure it is true in my case; I believe the doctrine of election, because I am quite certain that, if God had not chosen me, I should never have chosen Him; and I am sure He chose me before I was born, or else He never would have chosen me afterwards; and He must have elected me for reasons unknown to me, for I never could find any reason in myself why He should have looked upon me with special love. So I am forced to accept that great Biblical doctrine. I recollect an Arminian brother telling me that he had read the Scriptures through a score or more times, and could never find the doctrine of election in them. He added that he was sure he would have done so if it had been there, for he read the Word on his knees. I said to him, "I think you read the Bible in a very uncomfortable posture, and if you had read it in your easy chair, you would have been more likely to understand it. Pray, by all means, and the more, the better, but it is a piece of superstition to think there is anything in the posture in which a man puts himself for reading: and as to reading through the Bible twenty times without having found anything about the doctrine of election, the wonder is that you found anything at all: you must have galloped through it at such a rate that you were not likely to have any intelligible idea of the meaning of the Scriptures."
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If it would be marvelous to see one river leap up from the earth full-grown, what would it be to gaze upon a vast spring from which all the rivers of the earth should at once come bubbling up, a million of them born at a birth? What a vision would it be! Who can conceive it. And yet the love of God is that fountain, from which all the rivers of mercy, which have ever gladdened our race—all the rivers of grace in time, and of glory hereafter—take their rise. My soul, stand thou at that sacred fountain-head, and adore and magnify, for ever and ever, God, even our Father, who hath loved us! In the very beginning, when this great universe lay in the mind of God, like unborn forests in the acorn cup; long ere the echoes awoke the solitudes; before the mountains were brought forth; and long ere the light flashed through the sky, God loved His chosen creatures. Before there was any created being—when the ether was not fanned by an angel's wing, when space itself had not an existence, when there was nothing save God alone—even then, in that loneliness of Deity, and in that deep quiet and profundity, His bowels moved with love for His chosen. Their names were written on His heart, and then were they dear to His soul. Jesus loved His people before the foundation of the world—even from eternity! and when He called me by His grace, He said to me, "I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."

C. H. Spurgeon

"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."—C. H. Spurgeon
 
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Willo

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My only concern with evangelism on a Calvinist front is, that what is the point of preaching the gospel. I mean if God has already predesitned who will be saved why do we need to do anything, since He will save them anyway.

I know the Lord Jesus commanded all Christians to go and preach the gospel, and I am not refuting that. But I am having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that God has selected certain people to be saved, and the rest can go to hell.

Maybe someone could explain this a little better, as this one of my concerns when looking into Reformed Theology
 
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AndOne

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My philosophy as a Calvinist in evangelism is this - that God allows Christians (the elect) the wonderful opportunity and priveledge to participate in the overall process which ultimately is an incredible experience of His Glorious majesty.

I really look at it much like procreation. In other words God allows us as human beings the wonderful opportunity to participate in his creation. Although a man and a woman enjoy the experience of creating a baby - they are in reality only participants in a much greater act. God is the one doing the creating - He is the one doing the forming and fashioning of the child.

Its kind of a like that with evangelism. Although we are the one's sharing the gospel and preaching the word - He is the one doing all of the work.
 
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Willo

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Behe's Boy said:
My philosophy as a Calvinist in evangelism is this - that God allows Christians (the elect) the wonderful opportunity and priveledge to participate in the overall process which ultimately is an incredible experience of His Glorious majesty.

I really look at it much like procreation. In other words God allows us as human beings the wonderful opportunity to participate in his creation. Although a man and a woman enjoy the experience of creating a baby - they are in reality only participants in a much greater act. God is the one doing the creating - He is the one doing the forming and fashioning of the child.

Its kind of a like that with evangelism. Although we are the one's sharing the gospel and preaching the word - He is the one doing all of the work.

Thank you for your quick reply.

But the problem I have is this: "If all Christians chose not to witness/evangelise God would still saved who He wills, so then why do we need to get out there and do anything?

Why should we waste our time casting pearls in front of swine who God has predestined to go to hell?

These are just areas I am wondering about.

God Bless
 
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cygnusx1

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Q: Doesn't Calvinism's doctrine of Election and Predestination stiffle one's motivation and diligence in doing evangelism? Afterall, if they are predestined they'll get saved and if they are not, they won't... so why get all worked up about it when we can't make a difference?



the same questions about Calvinism "stiffling Evangelism" can and indeed are levelled as an arguement against prayer .........

my response which I have recently posted elsewhere , equally answers the charge about Evangelism ........

here it is for those who think praying is a waste of time .......

"I think this thread is missing the point , suppose God not only Knows what you will pray , but that He also INSPIRES your , my , Prayer .
Is it then a question of "changing God's mind" ?

Hardly , for He would be then going against His own will .

If there is a case to be made for Prayers "changing God's mind" then 1st it has to be shown that He declared a set mind , or purpose about a thing .

But can you show .......... the mind , purpose , choice of God ?
I believe even if God places a warning , or a condition upon us , then He also knows what we are going to do.

Prayers don't change God's will , they re-inforce it."
 
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frumanchu

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Willo said:
But the problem I have is this: "If all Christians chose not to witness/evangelise God would still saved who He wills, so then why do we need to get out there and do anything?

Willo, God could just as easily appear before men in a more direct and visible manner, such as with Paul on the road to Damascus, yes? The same question you ask is valid regardless of whether or not you accept the Reformed view of election. Rather than a more direct approach to man, God has chosen the "foolishness of the Gospel" to bring men to faith. Regardless of your view of election, I doubt anyone would be bold enough to argue that we are better evangelizers than He...yet He chose to bring His message to the world through the preaching of the Gospel. It is a tremendous blessing for us to do so.
 
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Imblessed

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I don't think I could possibly answer this question as gracefully and wonderfully as others here have, but if I am ever asked this question, my response is simply, "Because Jesus commanded it and this is how God brings people to Him."

It's that simple.

It doesn't have to be complicated at all, and I'm still trying to figure out HOW people think that Calvinism squelches the evangelistic spirit, especially if you take into consideration that some of the greatest evangelists in the world are Calvinists!!

Of course, before I became a Calvinist, I asked the same question, got the same answer and went :doh: .


It's no different from a Calvinist point of view or from an Arminian point of view, except possibly that arminians may have more guilt if their evangelism doesn't work and Calvinists realize that "you can't say the wrong thing to the right person, or say the right thing to the wrong person"
 
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CoffeeSwirls

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Imblessed said:
It's no different from a Calvinist point of view or from an Arminian point of view, except possibly that arminians may have more guilt if their evangelism doesn't work and Calvinists realize that "you can't say the wrong thing to the right person, or say the right thing to the wrong person"
I believe that hits the nail right on the head. Calvinism frees the evangelist to preach the word of God faithfully and let that be their only duty. We don't have to devise new ways of leading people to Christ. We don't need people to walk an aisle or sign a card to show that we are doing our job correctly. God does not judge a missionary based on how many people they save but on how obedient they were and how faithfully they preached the word of God.

If a missionary were to look down from the airplane that was taking them into India, they could look down at the sea of faces and be comforted that it is not their job to save a single one of them. They can rest in the knowledge that there are those of God's choosing down there and that He will reveal them in His time.
 
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cygnusx1

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frumanchu said:
Yes! The primary focus of evangelism is to be faithful, not convincing. Just as the primary focus of our works is to be faithful, not to earn something.

Best and most succinct explanation of Works I have seen , thanks brother
icon7.gif
 
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Gabriel

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frumanchu said:
Yes! The primary focus of evangelism is to be faithful, not convincing. Just as the primary focus of our works is to be faithful, not to earn something.

I hope you don't mind, I swiped your statement and made it part of my sig.
 
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