CALVIN: Is this a staw man?

[drstevej]

Calvin was described in a post on CF as

a two-bit Catholic lawyer who it took two years after his prosestant conversion to renounce his catholism, if he ever did. And to add injury to insult, started a theocratic local government and persecuted, even to murder, those who disagreed with him!

This thread affords a place to determine the historical accuracy of this characterization.

Any are welcome to discuss the assertions of this quote to evaluate their accuracy.

I claim this quote is historical revisionism and libel -- a Straw Man.

 

[drstevej]

Is the description of Calvin as a two-bit lawyer accurate?



Calvin entered the study of law at the suggestion of his father and moved to Orleans (1528) where he studied Pierre Taisan de L’toile, the most distinguished lawyer of his day. His proficiency as a law student is evidenced by his frequently being called upon to lecture, in the absence of one or other of the regular teaching staff at his law school.


The following year he transferred to Bourges to continue his studies under the brilliant Italian, Andrea Alciati (1492—1550), whom Francis I had invited into France and settled as a professor of law in that university. In Bourges he learned Greek and began to study the Greek NT.

Calvin's father died in 1531. Calvin completed his doctorate in law but then came to study Greek and Latin and the University of Paris.

===

Calvin's legal training was not "two bit." He studied under the finest legal professors and attained a doctoral degree. He had the respect of his teachers and joined their ranks.

Calvin left the legal academic world when he sided with the Reformation. It is accurate to call him a Law student and a Law professor but he did not pursue practicing law.

The charge that he was a "two-bit lawyer" is libel.

 

[drstevej]

Is the description of Calvin's renunciation of Catholicism accurate?

it took two years after his prosestant conversion to renounce his catholism, if he ever did

Setting aside the misspelling of Protestant and Catholicism, the process of Calvin's embracing of Reformation doctrine and his break with Catholicism is neither unusual for the times nor inconsistent with his character.

Reformation teaching came from a number of people and developed slowly (e.g. Phillip E Hughes, Lefevre: Pioneer of Ecclesiastical Renewal in France). Luther wrestled with the basic issues for some time and his understanding of justification did not come instantly (See Lowell C. Green, How Melancthon Helped Luther Discover the Gospel). Other examples of the era show that Calvin's process over some time was not unusual.

Additionally, Calvin was thorough by temperament not just grabbing a single idea and running with it. In the five years form 1531 to his publication of the Institutes, 1536 had produced the classic theological treatise of the era. Subsequent editions from 1536 to 1559 expanded the treatment but the foundational views did not change. This is a tribute to his thoroughness in making his original synthesis of the issues he was dealing with.

Calvin renounced the Pope and many foundational teachings of Catholicism. He did not renounce all that Catholicism teaches (e.g. the Trinity). To say he did not renounce Catholicism requires one to define "renounce Catholicism" in a way not understood in Calvin's era.

It is misleading at best a cheap shot at worst.

 

[drstevej]

Is the description of Calvin as starting a theocratic local government accurate?

Calvin was involved with the Reformation in two Swiss cantons, Geneva and Strassburg (see my article: "Calvin's Concept of Church Discipline," Westminster Theological Journal [Spring, 1997].). In neither case did he initiate the effort.

It was William Farel that initiated the reforms in Geneva. It was Farel who insisted that Calvin stay in Geneva to help. Calvin in doing so angered the City Magistrates and left to help Martin Bucer in Strassburg, where the Reforms were making good progress. He returned reluctantly to Geneva at the plea of the City Magistrates to help with the reforms.

Calvin started reforms in neither city. He assisted reform already underway and at the invitation of those already working on reforms.

Geneva of Calvin's day was not a Theocracy; Calvin was a Pastor not a Magistrate ( See E. William Monter, Calvin's Geneva). Calvin was a prowerful persuader but his authority politically was that of persuasion. Ecclesiastically he had the authority of being a pastor in the church.

Geneva was not a monarchy nor under a monarch. Calling it a theocracy is incorrect terminology. Calvin certainly did not deem it to be so.

Again, another libel.

 

[drstevej]

Is the description of Calvin as one who persecuted, even to murder, those who disagreed with him accurate?

Calvin as a pastor and member of the company of pastors in the Genevan Consistory did excommunicate church members as a matter of discipline (see Hughes, Register of the Company of Pastors of Geneva in the Time of Calvin).

The execution of Michael Servetus was the decision and action of the civil government of Geneva and was done as a judicial action. Calvin supported the decision. It was an execution after a guilty verdict, not murder.

In affirming the Council's action Calvin was in step with his era. The Sixteenth Century knew little of tolerance. That is a historical fact.

Servetus would not have fared better in Rome. Calling the Trinity a "Three-Headed Cerbus" in print in that era was even more risky that Luther challenging Rome's doctrines before Charles V. And had he not been hidden he would have been burned as Jon Hus was.

 

[Ormly]

Is the description of Calvin as a two-bit lawyer accurate?



Calvin entered the study of law at the suggestion of his father and moved to Orleans (1528) where he studied Pierre Taisan de L’toile, the most distinguished lawyer of his day. His proficiency as a law student is evidenced by his frequently being called upon to lecture, in the absence of one or other of the regular teaching staff at his law school.


The following year he transferred to Bourges to continue his studies under the brilliant Italian, Andrea Alciati (1492—1550), whom Francis I had invited into France and settled as a professor of law in that university. In Bourges he learned Greek and began to study the Greek NT.

Calvin's father died in 1531. Calvin completed his doctorate in law but then came to study Greek and Latin and the University of Paris.

===

Calvin's legal training was not "two bit." He studied under the finest legal professors and attained a doctoral degree. He had the respect of his teachers and joined their ranks.

Calvin left the legal academic world when he sided with the Reformation. It is accurate to call him a Law student and a Law professor but he did not pursue practicing law.

The charge that he was a "two-bit lawyer" is libel.

Sounds like an Obama resume.

Calvin was 26 yrs old and you haven't spoken to my remarks concerning staying the Catholic's AFTER his conversion. Nor have you considered his own weaknesses in his understanding that led him to his flawed decisions in later life.

 

[drstevej]

Sounds like an Obama resume.

Calvin was 26 yrs old and you haven't spoken to my remarks concerning staying the Catholic's AFTER his conversion. Nor have you considered his own weaknesses of his understanding that led him to his flawed decisions in later life.

Be patient, that's coming.


Do you admit now that characterizing Calvin as a "two bit lawyer" is not true?


The Obama remark is irrelevant and a dodge.

 

[Ormly]

Be patient, that's coming.


Do you admit now that characterizing Calvin as a "two bit lawyer" is not true?


The Obama remark is irrelevant and a dodge.

At his age and experience, do you believe he could be anything more? The Obama comment is no dodge, but very significant.

 

[drstevej]

At his age and experience, do you believe he could be anything more?

His professors, the finest of the era, displayed a confidence in his competency in asking him to teach. Few at his age and experience were regarded as highly.

Calling him "two-bit" is ridicule that does not fit the facts. It reflects bias.

Will you admit it?

 

[Ormly]

His professors, the finest of the era, displayed a confidence in his competency in asking him to teach. Few at his age and experience were regarded as highly.

Calling him "two-bit" is ridicule that does not fit the facts. It reflects bias.

Will you admit it?

Why take it personal? I believe Obama is also a two-bit lawyer, with agenda, stupid people have elevated to their distruction.

Calvin was more legalistic than Spiritual.

 

[drstevej]

Why take it personal? I believe Obama is also a two-bit lawyer, with agenda, stupid people have elevated to their distruction.

Calvin was more legalistic than Spiritual.

Obama is irrelevant and a red herring to this discussion.

Adding another charge is avoidance of the issue. Calling Calvin a "two bit laywer" is libel and a cheap shot. Admit it or defend it.

 

[Ormly]

Obama is irrelevant and a red herring to this discussion.

Adding another charge is avoidance of the issue. Calling Calvin a "two bit laywer" is libel and a cheap shot. Admit it or defend it.

I'll do neither. Its all in the record. Get off the subject unless you just want to discuss, to defend Calvin. I couldn't care less about him and why you should unless he is your Bible.

I don't want to be in this thread.

 

[drstevej]

I'll do neither. Its all in the record. Get off the subject unless you just want to discuss, to defend Calvin. I couldn't care less about him and why you should unless he is your Bible.

Hogwash.

Calvin is not in the Bible, but bearing false witness is.

 

[Ormly]

Hogwash.

Calvin is not in the Bible, but bearing false witness is.

So is the penalty for the mis-representation of scriptures. Calvin did that and you have also.

 

[drstevej]

I don't want to be in this thread.

I understand.

 

[drstevej]

This thread can be closed.

 

[Ormly]

I understand.

I really don't believe you do. But thats OK since all else is also not understood..

 

[drstevej]

I really don't believe you do. But thats OK since all else is also not understood..

I really do understand....

 

[Ormly]

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7236729

I hope you are following the thread above.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7236729

 

[drstevej]

I don't want to be in this thread.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7236729

I hope you are following the thread above.

So you don't want to answer the refutation of your libel but want me to go to that thread.

I'll wait for you to document or apologize.


*whistles in the dark*