Calvary Chapel

[Simon Peter]

And what's new?

My post did contain a smidgen of sarcasm (the lowest form of wit, but it is a form of wit) but it also had a dollop of humour.

I think the response was more "hot headed"...

I got that part (bold above), my thing with that is why not? If any unbeliever is going to go to church, it is Sunday morning. What better time for the gifts to be on display, when those who need Jesus are there. Yes we all need Jesus, but I'm speaking of a saving knowledge of Him. If they don't like the gifts being utilized/displayed in Sunday morning services for any reason, that's cessationist enough for me.

There's a difference between "cessationist enough" and "cessationist in every way". There are loads of denominations that are truly cessationist, CC is not one of them.

As for the "why not", CC overacted to serious disruptions and disorder to services (think Holy laughter). Instead of just curtailing the excesses they threw the whole lot out. A mistake IMO.


peace,
Simon

 

[FerventDisciple]

If you are a Brit who has not been in the US a long time, you will find things quite different here.

Most British Charismatic churches lean heavily towards Calvinism, and almost all reject 'Word of Faith' (prosperity gospel) with very few exceptions. And the UK really doesn't have any Pentecostal (in the historic sense) denominations.

Over here the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches are far more likely to be Arminian. Word of Faith churches have sprung up everywhere, and when a Charismatic church isn't WoF their Arminian leanings often causes them to adopt some WoF perspectives, unknowingly.

The 'Assemblies of God' is the largest Pentecostal denomination is the US. Despite being Arminian, they have rejected WoF teachings. They are fairly reasonable, but local churches can vary a lot. The AoG is also interesting because they have pre-mill end-times beliefs (like Baptists) where most Charismatic churches are post-mill.

Most of the Charismatic churches in the US are now 'Apostolic', and they usually embrace 'Charismania'. But those two elements are not very different to Charismatic churches in the UK.



peace,
Simon

I've been in the Lord nearly 6 years now but don't have a lot of experience attending different Churches. In the UK the only one I attended was associated with Elim and they were Arminian and heavily into Joyce Meyer so WOF as well.

In America I've visted a few but have mainly been associated with 1 Church which is Pastored by my Wife's cousin and only has about 20 people at present. Although I have the opportunity to preach, it has many problems and issues. I feel the Lord may call us out of it soon and my Wife is not prepared to have our son who's on the way grow up in it, in it's present state. So I'm exploring other options if we do end up leaving.

There's a few AOG in my area, but the largest one has a reputation for mosh pits and worldliness. If I may ask, when are the times when the gifts are welcome in CC?

 

[Simon Peter]

I've been in the Lord nearly 6 years now but don't have a lot of experience attending different Churches. In the UK the only one I attended was associated with Elim and they were Arminian and heavily into Joyce Meyer so WOF as well.

In America I've visted a few but have mainly been associated with 1 Church which is Pastored by my Wife's cousin and only has about 20 people at present. Although I have the opportunity to preach, it has many problems and issues. I feel the Lord may call us out of it soon and my Wife is not prepared to have our son who's on the way grow up in it, in it's present state. So I'm exploring other options if we do end up leaving.

There's a few AOG in my area, but the largest one has a reputation for mosh pits and worldliness. If I may ask, when are the times when the gifts are welcome in CC?

Elim sounds like its roots were truly Pentecostal, which I believe is rare in the UK. It should be easier to find churches 'similar' to that in the US, than the UK, particularly if you live in a high church density area.

Technically, in CC, the gifts are welcome (within reason) at any time other than the main Sunday morning service. But you'd have to check with the local pastor.

CC are also pre-mill, unlike the Vineyard who are post-mill.
I think CC try to walk the line on the Arminian/Calvinist scale.

Generally, I think CC is a good denomination.

peace,
Simon

 

[Tobias]

I attended CC Costa Mesa for several months, where the founder Chuck Smith was pastor. It was quite a while ago, so I'm trying to remember. But it seems like they might have advertized an "Afterglow" meeting or two during that time, where the Gifts were allowed.

I don't remember being too impressed. I was accustomed to so much more, from some of the other churches I had been a part of. It only stands to reason that if you don't ever practice operating in the Gifts of the Spirit, then when you do try to, you are just stumbling around trying to figure out how.


My parents still go to a CC, as well as other members of my family. My nephew gave a talk there a few months ago, and invited us all to come hear him speak. CC has beautiful worship music, which I've always enjoyed. But i was concerned that I might forget myself and raise my hands during worship. lol So I dug my hands deep into my pockets and went on from there.

To my surprise, some of the worship leaders and many in the congregation started lifting up their hands during worship. It was nice. But I suppose that is the full extend of how "charismatic" they are!

 

[jiminpa]

They acknowledge that the gifts haven't officially ended, but if you try to operate in them or talk openly about them with CC people, they will consider burning you at the stake.

Notice that I specified CC people, which I assume is acceptable abbreviation in this thread for Calvary Chapel members.

My experience with a specific Calvary Chapel and my understanding of the conflict between Chuck Smith and John Wimber, as well as accounts by others supports my statement about Calvary Chapel. Actually I consider the glaring discrepancy between their public doctrinal statement and their actual teaching to be dishonest at best. Raising their hands in church is not the same thing as actually operating in the gifts of the Spirit.

 

[FerventDisciple]

Elim sounds like its roots were truly Pentecostal, which I believe is rare in the UK. It should be easier to find churches 'similar' to that in the US, than the UK, particularly if you live in a high church density area.

Technically, in CC, the gifts are welcome (within reason) at any time other than the main Sunday morning service. But you'd have to check with the local pastor.

CC are also pre-mill, unlike the Vineyard who are post-mill.
I think CC try to walk the line on the Arminian/Calvinist scale.

Generally, I think CC is a good denomination.

peace,
Simon

There's definitely more Churches here. But I live in a border city so maybe the options aren't quite as much as other cities in the US. I'm unaware of any Vineyard Churches here, but I'm definitely not post-mill.

 

[Optimus Fortis]

I've been in the Lord nearly 6 years now but don't have a lot of experience attending different Churches. In the UK the only one I attended was associated with Elim and they were Arminian and heavily into Joyce Meyer so WOF as well.

In America I've visted a few but have mainly been associated with 1 Church which is Pastored by my Wife's cousin and only has about 20 people at present. Although I have the opportunity to preach, it has many problems and issues. I feel the Lord may call us out of it soon and my Wife is not prepared to have our son who's on the way grow up in it, in it's present state. So I'm exploring other options if we do end up leaving.

There's a few AOG in my area, but the largest one has a reputation for mosh pits and worldliness. If I may ask, when are the times when the gifts are welcome in CC?

I have to agree with you regarding the Elim Pentecostal denomination in the UK. I went there during my late teens - early twenties before I moved on by moving away from the town.

Although I hadn't heard of the term Arminian, never once did I hear the pastor teach that my salvation was pre-ordained. In fact, I vaguely recall him mention that God would have defended a decision to go to Hell if that's what we wanted. That's pretty hardcore Arminian. More so because the geographical area where I am from is strongly influenced by Presbyterianism.

In this church, I was first exposed to Andrew Wommack, Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagin. Because of this, I did not realise that there was a difference between WoF and Pentecostalism until I found CF!

In practice and in hindsight the only difference between the WoF and traditional Pentecostal members in my former church was the concept of 'Revival', a term not found in the Bible but has huge influence on every evangelical and charismatic assembly in the land.

The WoF members would consider most of the 'begging', 'bawling and squalling prayers' for a 'sovereign move of God' to be prayers of utter unbelief given that these people had received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and the Name above all other names. Likewise, they wouldn't sing 'Pour out your Spirit' songs for the same reason and they'd also consider the song, 'These are they days of Elijah' as an affront to the New Covenant with better promises.

 

[Optimus Fortis]

... the Strange Fire conference...

Isn't the name of the conference quite unfortunate?

The only other time I've heard this term is in Leviticus 10:1-2.

And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.

And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Strange, foreign = esh zarah

I don't wish to derail the thread but didn't the conference organisers not realise that this term comes with some scriptural 'baggage'?

 

[Tobias]

Isn't the name of the conference quite unfortunate?

The only other time I've heard this term is in Leviticus 10:1-2.



Strange, foreign = esh zarah

I don't wish to derail the thread but didn't the conference organisers not realise that this term comes with some scriptural 'baggage'?

That's exactly what they were going for. They believe that the Spirit that is involved in all things Pentecostal and Charismatic is not the Holy Spirit.

 

[Faulty]

What do you think of Calvary Chapel? I always thought they were basically Baptist and cessationist. I recently came across a response by CC to the Strange Fire conference, I had no idea they are continuationist. Are they a fairly reliable organization or should they be avoided?

I've been with a CC for several years now. They are neither cessationists nor do they roll around barking in the aisles. If people say they don't walk in the gifts, I honestly don't have a clue what they are talking about unless their idea of such a thing is for every Sunday having a thousand people babble loudly and incoherently at the same time to music. That particular display I haven't yet seen, but healings, deliverance, etc, that I've seen.

I like the way they teach, verse by verse, because it forces them to go deep and actually teach the text, rather than teaching about themselves and their subjective experiences, plus it's led to a number of follow up questions from my family to me concerning the scriptures, the nature of God, etc.

My particular pastor is OSAS, which is good, since I don't have to worry about him filling the heads of my family with nonsense in that area. For me, until I realized that salvation couldn't be lost around 20 years ago, that was the most agonizing and painful time of my life. I suffered greatly emotionally and even some physical effects from the agony that came with the 'salvation can be lost' teachings. I can still recall the day my eyes were opened and the weight left me. I used to plead in agony with God constantly, day after day, that if I was currently in a state of salvation to kill me before I screw up and lose it "again". It was extremely painful for me and I really don't want my family to have to go through such unnecessary pain because of some bad teaching when I can do my job and protect them from it.

As it turns out, I'm moving to Texas at the end of next month. I'm not sure what kind of church I'll find there.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I've been with a CC for several years now. They are neither cessationists nor do they roll around barking in the aisles. If people say they don't walk in the gifts, I honestly don't have a clue what they are talking about unless their idea of such a thing is for every Sunday having a thousand people babble loudly and incoherently at the same time to music. That particular display I haven't yet seen, but healings, deliverance, etc, that I've seen.

I like the way they teach, verse by verse, because it forces them to go deep and actually teach the text, rather than teaching about themselves and their subjective experiences, plus it's led to a number of follow up questions from my family to me concerning the scriptures, the nature of God, etc.

My particular pastor is OSAS, which is good, since I don't have to worry about him filling the heads of my family with nonsense in that area. For me, until I realized that salvation couldn't be lost around 20 years ago, that was the most agonizing and painful time of my life. I suffered greatly emotionally and even some physical effects from the agony that came with the 'salvation can be lost' teachings. I can still recall the day my eyes were opened and the weight left me. I used to plead in agony with God constantly, day after day, that if I was currently in a state of salvation to kill me before I screw up and lose it "again". It was extremely painful for me and I really don't want my family to have to go through such unnecessary pain because of some bad teaching when I can do my job and protect them from it.

As it turns out, I'm moving to Texas at the end of next month. I'm not sure what kind of church I'll find there.

Perhaps my experience with the CC here was unique. I'm not saying they all are like that, but the sample size I have experience with is what I have to base my opinion on. I'm moving to Manhattan, KS in 2 months and there is both a CC and Vineyard fellowship there and I plan on trying both there too. We'll see. My experience with the one here is based more off them basing their teachings off McArthur than anything else. Say you believe in the gifts all you want but when the speaker stands up behind the pulpit and says he agrees with McArthur on the subject, you lose credibility in that area.

I do agree about the OSAS thing, even though I'm still not sure if I fall into the OSAS camp, or as I like to call it, the believer's security. Perhaps they are both the same since you can't be saved without genuine belief, so I guess I could be OSAS. Anyways, I definitely can familiarize myself with your experience. When I was under the "conditional security" camp, every little thing made me so tense. I can't mess up because God is just so willing to zap me and disown me for my mistakes. Then I have to make it up because I caused my own fall and since God was so angry at me to let me go, I have to earn my way back into His grace. So I thought..... I was completely missing the point of God's grace and love. Anyways,

Where in Texas are you moving?

 

[Faulty]

Perhaps my experience with the CC here was unique. I'm not saying they all are like that, but the sample size I have experience with is what I have to base my opinion on. I'm moving to Manhattan, KS in 2 months and there is both a CC and Vineyard fellowship there and I plan on trying both there too. We'll see. My experience with the one here is based more off them basing their teachings off McArthur than anything else. Say you believe in the gifts all you want but when the speaker stands up behind the pulpit and says he agrees with McArthur on the subject, you lose credibility in that area.

I do agree about the OSAS thing, even though I'm still not sure if I fall into the OSAS camp, or as I like to call it, the believer's security. Perhaps they are both the same since you can't be saved without genuine belief, so I guess I could be OSAS. Anyways, I definitely can familiarize myself with your experience. When I was under the "conditional security" camp, every little thing made me so tense. I can't mess up because God is just so willing to zap me and disown me for my mistakes. Then I have to make it up because I caused my own fall and since God was so angry at me to let me go, I have to earn my way back into His grace. So I thought..... I was completely missing the point of God's grace and love. Anyways,

Where in Texas are you moving?

As far as MacArthur is concerned, unlike probably many other non-cessationists, I did make it a point to listen to the talks from the Strange Fire conference, and to seek out his teachings on the gifts. Because, like it or not, sometimes criticism is valid and should be considered, as we all have blind spots. Anywho, he believes that prophecy and tongues have been done away with because we now have a full scripture text, where everything to be revealed, has been revealed, but he affirms all the other gifts still in operation and you can even find examples where he talks about praying for people who are instantly healed and even instances of casting out demons. So, I think there is the real MacArthur and then the caricature of him some have created in their heads.

About me, I was promoted at my job back in February. Part of that was my being transferred from Iowa to Plano, Texas, which is more than perfectly fine with me and my family. I lived in Texas once before for a bit, when I was stationed at Fort Bliss for a couple years.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

That's cool. I was stationed at Bliss for 6 years. Be blessed in your future endeavors

About MacArthur, I've watched videos of the man speaking about the "strange fire" stuff and not more than 5 minutes into an hour long teaching he had said more than once the Holy Spirit of Charismatics and Pentecostals is not God. That is deplorable and unacceptable. No less so than the poster here not long ago telling us all we were unregenerate and unjustified.. Only worse because the poster here directed his comments at us and MacArthur targeted the Holy Spirit.

He can disagree with the excesses within some Charismatic circles, I do too, Charismatics can take things too far. But that in NO WAY makes the Holy Spirit we believe in not God. This gets thrown around here a lot, but it fits here better than any other time I believe. When Jesus told the Pharisees those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit never have forgiveness, they had just done the EXACT SAME THING MacArthur teaches. They attributed the work of the Spirit to that of devils and deceiving spirits. That is not good, from Jesus' own mouth.

That is my issue with the man and even if that is his one offense, it is enough for me to avoid him. He has millions of people that take every word of his as the gospel truth, perhaps more so unfortunately. He should be careful what he says and try some humility in his teaching. If he disagrees, that's fine, but he has no right to judge other believers as demon possessed heathens who blaspheme the Holy Spirit and are condemned....

 

[Faulty]

That's cool. I was stationed at Bliss for 6 years. Be blessed in your future endeavors

About MacArthur, I've watched videos of the man speaking about the "strange fire" stuff and not more than 5 minutes into an hour long teaching he had said more than once the Holy Spirit of Charismatics and Pentecostals is not God. That is deplorable and unacceptable. No less so than the poster here not long ago telling us all we were unregenerate and unjustified.. Only worse because the poster here directed his comments at us and MacArthur targeted the Holy Spirit.

He can disagree with the excesses within some Charismatic circles, I do too, Charismatics can take things too far. But that in NO WAY makes the Holy Spirit we believe in not God. This gets thrown around here a lot, but it fits here better than any other time I believe. When Jesus told the Pharisees those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit never have forgiveness, they had just done the EXACT SAME THING MacArthur teaches. They attributed the work of the Spirit to that of devils and deceiving spirits. That is not good, from Jesus' own mouth.

That is my issue with the man and even if that is his one offense, it is enough for me to avoid him. He has millions of people that take every word of his as the gospel truth, perhaps more so unfortunately. He should be careful what he says and try some humility in his teaching. If he disagrees, that's fine, but he has no right to judge other believers as demon possessed heathens who blaspheme the Holy Spirit and are condemned....

Had you stuck with it, it would have been clarified that he wasn't speaking of all charismatics, but the excesses and even those times when we, as a group, affirm those who call themselves our teachers, but walk in the demonic. In fact, what I found time and time again when I listened to the various speakers of that conference, that it sounded a lot like the conversations that have gone on here at SF/C through the years. Many of the same points raised by them have also been raised here and hotly debated at times. There were even numerous times where it was clarified that they were discussing only elements within this area, and not as a whole.

This is what I mean be creating a caricature, one line out of context creating a warped picture of the whole.

I'm not saying to listen to the conference, but I did because I like to research and I'm curious, but if that's what you got out of it, then you missed the other 99%.

That said, I'm not going to discuss this anymore on this thread, since it will likely take it off course. If someone opens a more targeted thread, then there is where it can be discussed, or at least it can (by me) in the middle of next week when I return from a trip.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

 

[FerventDisciple]

I have to agree with you regarding the Elim Pentecostal denomination in the UK. I went there during my late teens - early twenties before I moved on by moving away from the town.

Although I hadn't heard of the term Arminian, never once did I hear the pastor teach that my salvation was pre-ordained. In fact, I vaguely recall him mention that God would have defended a decision to go to Hell if that's what we wanted. That's pretty hardcore Arminian. More so because the geographical area where I am from is strongly influenced by Presbyterianism.

In this church, I was first exposed to Andrew Wommack, Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagin. Because of this, I did not realise that there was a difference between WoF and Pentecostalism until I found CF!

In practice and in hindsight the only difference between the WoF and traditional Pentecostal members in my former church was the concept of 'Revival', a term not found in the Bible but has huge influence on every evangelical and charismatic assembly in the land.

The WoF members would consider most of the 'begging', 'bawling and squalling prayers' for a 'sovereign move of God' to be prayers of utter unbelief given that these people had received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and the Name above all other names. Likewise, they wouldn't sing 'Pour out your Spirit' songs for the same reason and they'd also consider the song, 'These are they days of Elijah' as an affront to the New Covenant with better promises.

Many go beyond Arminianism to pretty much semi-pelagianism.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Can someone explain to me what arminianism and pelagianism and that stuff that is so complicated to say and type I'm having trouble thinking straight means please?

 

[FerventDisciple]

I've been with a CC for several years now. They are neither cessationists nor do they roll around barking in the aisles. If people say they don't walk in the gifts, I honestly don't have a clue what they are talking about unless their idea of such a thing is for every Sunday having a thousand people babble loudly and incoherently at the same time to music. That particular display I haven't yet seen, but healings, deliverance, etc, that I've seen.

I like the way they teach, verse by verse, because it forces them to go deep and actually teach the text, rather than teaching about themselves and their subjective experiences, plus it's led to a number of follow up questions from my family to me concerning the scriptures, the nature of God, etc.

My particular pastor is OSAS, which is good, since I don't have to worry about him filling the heads of my family with nonsense in that area. For me, until I realized that salvation couldn't be lost around 20 years ago, that was the most agonizing and painful time of my life. I suffered greatly emotionally and even some physical effects from the agony that came with the 'salvation can be lost' teachings. I can still recall the day my eyes were opened and the weight left me. I used to plead in agony with God constantly, day after day, that if I was currently in a state of salvation to kill me before I screw up and lose it "again". It was extremely painful for me and I really don't want my family to have to go through such unnecessary pain because of some bad teaching when I can do my job and protect them from it.

As it turns out, I'm moving to Texas at the end of next month. I'm not sure what kind of church I'll find there.

That sounds good, I think it's definitely worth a visit at least for me then.

When I say OSAS it's not the belief in not losing salvation I'm against (although I disagree). One can believe in not losing salvation yet not be OSAS. OSAS advocates use the doctrine to give license to sin. Those who believe in holiness but also eternal security I'd consider their belief perseverance of the saints rather than OSAS.

 

[FerventDisciple]

That's cool. I was stationed at Bliss for 6 years. Be blessed in your future endeavors

About MacArthur, I've watched videos of the man speaking about the "strange fire" stuff and not more than 5 minutes into an hour long teaching he had said more than once the Holy Spirit of Charismatics and Pentecostals is not God. That is deplorable and unacceptable. No less so than the poster here not long ago telling us all we were unregenerate and unjustified.. Only worse because the poster here directed his comments at us and MacArthur targeted the Holy Spirit.

He can disagree with the excesses within some Charismatic circles, I do too, Charismatics can take things too far. But that in NO WAY makes the Holy Spirit we believe in not God. This gets thrown around here a lot, but it fits here better than any other time I believe. When Jesus told the Pharisees those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit never have forgiveness, they had just done the EXACT SAME THING MacArthur teaches. They attributed the work of the Spirit to that of devils and deceiving spirits. That is not good, from Jesus' own mouth.

That is my issue with the man and even if that is his one offense, it is enough for me to avoid him. He has millions of people that take every word of his as the gospel truth, perhaps more so unfortunately. He should be careful what he says and try some humility in his teaching. If he disagrees, that's fine, but he has no right to judge other believers as demon possessed heathens who blaspheme the Holy Spirit and are condemned....

Ha small world, I work on Fort Bliss! I imagine you guys have some experience of the churches here then? I'm guessing not the CC here though.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

That sounds good, I think it's definitely worth a visit at least for me then.

When I say OSAS it's not the belief in not losing salvation I'm against (although I disagree). One can believe in not losing salvation yet not be OSAS. OSAS advocates use the doctrine to give license to sin. Those who believe in holiness but also eternal security I'd consider their belief perseverance of the saints rather than OSAS.

I prefer to call this ^^^ "the believer's security". That as long as my faith and hope are in Jesus and His blood on my behalf, I'm safe in the Father's hands... That could be interpretted as OSAS, but... oh who knows honestly, just go with Jesus