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Calvary Chapel - Not Pentecostal

Bryne

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From the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa website:

We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit and in the exercise of all Biblical gifts of the Spirit according to the instructions given to us in 1 Corinthians 12-14.

Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa | Simply Teaching the Bible Simply


That doesn't sound very Cessationist to me.
 
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MPaul

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There is a very large Calvary Chapel church five blocks from my house. I have met with the people there often at their coffee shop, until they indirectly made it clear they very much did not want me around.

They are not Pentecostal. They do not believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as we do. They are completely like Cessationists in character. The book store at the church near my house was full of books which run Pentecostals into the dirt and degrade them. There were no books whatsoever that supported Pentecostals. Discussion on Pentecostal theology was not possible without upholding it as false.
 
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MPaul

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They are definitely Cessationist. If a Christian believes that the power of the Holy Spirit has ceased in expression in any way from how this power is exercised in the bible -- then that Christian believes in a cessation of that power. At Calvary Chapel, they definitely believe that the power of the Holy Spirit is experienced in a different way than fully represented in Scripture. I was there once, when the pastor was answering a member's request for knowing how to experience God more fully. The pastor told him to read books by A.Z. Tozer -- sorry, but that is experiencing God through scholarship, or substituting knowing about intellectual concepts on God for knowing God as a person. This is Cessationist!!!!!! Saying that knowing scholarly concepts on God is knowing the power of God is ridiculous.
 
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Bryne

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They are definitely Cessationist. If a Christian believes that the power of the Holy Spirit has ceased in expression in any way from how this power is exercised in the bible -- then that Christian believes in a cessation of that power.

But they don't believe that the power of the Holy Spirit has ceased in any way.

Again...from their website:

We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit and in the exercise of all Biblical gifts of the Spirit according to the instructions given to us in 1 Corinthians 12-14.


They believe that the gifts of the Spirit are active today and are to be expressed and exercised according to the instructions given in scripture. They don't believe that the power of the Holy Spirit has ceased.

Yes...they disagree with Pentecostals on certain things...so what they believe about the expression and exercise of the Holy Spirit in the Bible is different from what Pentecostals believe about the expression and exercise of the Holy Spirit in the Bible...but again...that is different from believing that anything has ceased.

And I really don't see how reading books about God makes a person Cessationist. There is no reason why we can't read books to learn about God and experience Him personally as well. Both are good and beneficial. And sometimes, reading books can lead to a personal experience. I know that my mind works that way. Though, I do have to say, if someone asked me about experiencing God, I would have suggested prayer and fasting before reading a book.
 
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MPaul

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They definitely believe that the power of the Holy Spirit has ceased in specific ways. By those facts and according to English definitions, they are Cessationists. The fact that they have another view of how the facts apply to definitions, so that they do not have to admit they are what they say they are is irrelevant, and actually just a fantasy.

Pentecostals doctrine teaches that all Christians have gifts from the Holy Spirit -- as all Christians have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. However, some Christians do not have certain gifts of the Spirit, which represent his power, as they believe that power has ceased. They are Cessationists, although they have gifts of the Spirit. However, they believe the power of the Spirit only operates in worldly ways. Do not hold your breath for a miraculous healing crusade from Cessationists. They believe that has ceased.

Now that you have come into this forum to advocate against Pentecostal teaching, do you believe it is OK for me to return the favor and go into the Lutheran forum to inform the members how Simul Justus et Peccator is all wrong?? It is wrong, you know.

PS -- there is nothing wrong in using books or scholarship as study aids, but what I was referring to was, using scholarship and intellectual concepts as a substitute for knowing the power of God. That is the way of the Cessationists.
 
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MPaul

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So, Pentecostal in theory, cessation in practice?

Not really. They believe the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit has ceased. They say, but not using these precise words, that the gifts operate in natural and worldly way, but it is still the power of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps, the word that should be used for them is not Cessationist, but Substitutionist -- that is, they have a substitute concept of the power of the Spirit, rather than the biblical one, just as they have a substitute concept of a relationship with God through scholarship. Cessationists say we are anti-scholarly, but I say we distinguish between how Jesus did scholarship and how the Pharisses did. Still, at least for now, I'll stick with the word Cessationist.
 
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JakeAM

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Not really. They believe the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit has ceased.

Except that they don't. If by cessationist you mean that they believe that all of the spiritual gifts found in the New Testament are active today, then yeah they're cessationist.

It sounds like you had a bad experience with the CC near you. It sounds like they might have been hostile to your assertion that books are bad, which is an assertion that you can't have expected to go over well, given that most Christians, you know, read.....

BTW, Calvary Chapel doesn't claim to be Pentecostal, they're very much of the Charismatic movement...different animal...
 
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MPaul

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You are posting without having read the thread? You are making up for me what my experience at Calvary Chapel was?

I indicated clearly in the thread what I meant by Cessationist, which is the standard definition used by Pentecostals. Note the classic Pentecostal/Charismatic apology, Quenching the Spirit by DeArtega. My purpose for the thread was initially indicated, and followed a series of posts in the forum by someone posting under the Calvary Chapel icon, and who tried to revive an anti-Pentecostal thread.

I am most familiar with the definition of Charismatic -- are you? There is no way the Calvary Chapel near my house is Charismatic, and it is a very large and significant church. In fact, it runs Charismatic ministries into the dirt. It is essentially just another form of being... well, let's not say.

I have a great deal of experience in interacting with multi-denominational ministries and Cessations environments. I have no "bad experience" to relate from the church near me, but observations on the character and beliefs of the church.
 
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MPaul

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Does it honestly matter? Christian is christian.

This is a Pentecostal environment and must be respected as such. As far as does it matter? Wait until you experience the hundreds if not thousands of games Cessationists play and the hatred that is involved. Then, you will believe that it is entirely proper to have an environment that is free of the games. And then, you will have to learn sophisticated techniques for dealing with the inter-denominational environments and the games that go on. Yes, hated toward Pentecostals matters and knowing how to deal with it also.

By forum rules, Pentecostal teaching is to be respected here. There are other sections for the games. Not here.
 
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JakeAM

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I did read the thread, and frankly, your definition of cessationism differs from basically everyone elses, including those who have responded in the thread. In fact, it makes little sense.

I didn't make up anything about your experience with CC, I just reiterated what you posted, that they didn't want you around, and that you were shocked when a pastor there recommended that someone read a book on spirituality.

CC is Charismatic, period. Their beginnings lie in that movement, and they haven't distanced themselves from it. They don't believe that gifts have ceased, hence they are not cessationist. They believe in spirit baptism as a second experience. They have not ever identified with Pentecostalism by name, however, which makes the declaration in the title of the thread pointless. It's a bit like having a thread with the title "Pat Robertson - Not Greek Orthodox".

Apparently you did have a "bad experience" with the CC in your area because you're saying that they "run Charismatic ministries into the dirt". You're also basing your views of Calvary Chapel as a denomination on your subjective experiences with that one congregation, rather than on the position statements found on the CC website and in Calvary Chapel Distinctives, their longform doctrinal statement.

I've attended Calvary Chapels before, and they fulfill any standard definition one would have of a Charismatic movement.
 
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MPaul

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Your response resembles so much that of a Cessationist. You want to force on me that I had a "bad experience" there whether I like it or not. It does not matter that you were not an observer in any way to my experience there, you will make up what you want to believe and force it to serve your purpose. Observing that this church runs Charismatics into the dirt is no bad experience for me... it is an observation about the church, and I am not charismatic myself, but Pentecostal. I had no bad experience, but I treated everyone with complete love and respect.

You have not reiterated what I posted, but you have forced your own special meaning onto what I posted. And although my experience with Calvary Chapel was at one church, it was a very large one, definitely contrary to Pentecostal and Charismatic beliefs, and it would be extremely difficult to believe it was not representative of the church at large.

Jake, this is just typical game playing. My words can only mean what you say they mean. I have been through this so many times. It does not matter how many posts I make over how many years, a Cessationist will say they can only mean what he says they mean.

PS -- and I have already noted I am using the standard definition of Cessationist, as set out in the standard Pentecostal/Charismatic apology, Quenching the Spirit. No doubt, however, what I say my definition is, and what you force on my words for the definition are two different things.
 
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JakeAM

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First of all, cessationist isn't a dirty word. There is nothing inherently wrong with having a different view on secondary issues. I'm neither a Pentecostal nor a cessationist (more of a John Piper-esque continuationist). I can grow spiritually through both John MacArthur and Jentezen Franklin, and have. I'd have no problem worshiping in a Church of God or in a Calvary Chapel or in a cessationist Southern Baptist church (and most of my SBC church is cessationist). I appreciate many things about Pentecostalism and Charismatics, and I have reservations about fringe groups under that umbrella who subscribe to Word-of-Faith prosperity teachings or teach that those who haven't been granted the gift of tongues are bound for hell. Balance is the best approach when we all agree that scripture is inerrant, Christ is savior and lord, and that failure to accept and submit to him results in hell.

Back to the matter at hand, if you didn't have a bad experience with Calvary Chapel, then would you describe it as a good experience?

Calvary Chapel says they're Charismatic, outsiders almost uniformly call them Charismatic, and they hold to major facets of Charismatic theology: continuation of all spiritual gifts and baptism in the Holy Spirit subsequent to conversion. Are you saying that they don't believe in these things, or do you believe that those views don't make one Charismatic?
 
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MPaul

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The first paragraph of your response has nothing to do with the thread and is really just a way of advocating against Pentecostal teaching. Please – do not play these games here. I can refute the negativity you are trying to force on me and Pentecostals and Charismatics in that paragraph, but I am not going to be sucked into the game. You can go to other sections of the forum to post negativity on Pentecostals, but not here.

I went to the church's coffee shop first because I believed their dove symbol indicated they were Pentecostal or Charismatic. I quickly learned their beliefs were just the opposite, and in fact, they were identical to Baptist. However, I did not debate in any way. I merely inquired and listened to the response. I noted the book store promoted anti-Pentecostal and anti-Charismatic books. I noted conversation in the shop was anti-Pentecostal and anti-Charismatic. None of this bothered me in any way, as I have extensive experience with Cessationists and with multi-denominational ministries.

I did not hide that I was Pentecostal in belief. However, the nature of my conversations with the people there made it necessary to avoid discussion of Pentecostal theology, but it was always done most pleasantly. I did note once, that one of the pamphlets they put out that was anti-charismatic was no longer accurate or up to date, according to current teaching I had witnessed on the TV. There was no response.

I went to the shop primarily to write, and I would drink coffee while doing so. But they always started conversations with me – which is common at a coffee shop, and I have no problem writing and having conversation. However, it finally happened that when I went into the shop, they would not acknowledge me or serve me. This happened several times, and I realized they did not want me there. I am extremely used to being treated this way by Cressationists. It did not bother me in any way, or change my esteem of them in any way. That is just the way Pentecostals most often are treated in Cessationist environments, and I really do not care at all. I just accept things for what they are -- that is the way I grew up in the East End of Pittsburgh.
 
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JakeAM

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I posted negativity about Pentecostals/Charismatics? By what, saying I've grown from listening to Pentecostal preachers like Jentezen Franklin and that I'd be happy to worship in a CoG(Pentecostal) or CC(Charismatic) congregation? By saying that I believe all gifts are available today? This is me "forcing negativity" on Pentecostals and Charismatics? Or was it that I said I think Christians should unite behind essentials rather than divide themselves? Yep, that's got negativity written all over it.

What were these anti-Pentacostal/anti-Charismatic books they were promoting? If I walk into a Lifeway store (SBC) I'm hard pressed to find anything explicitly anti-Charismatic, other than maybe "Charismatic Chaos" by MacArthur. It would be strange if CC were promoting anti-Charismatic literature, considering that they are Charismatic....

I would like you to respond to this point from my last post, rather than skip over it and attack me as anti-Pentecostal:

"Calvary Chapel says they're Charismatic, outsiders almost uniformly call them Charismatic, and they hold to major facets of Charismatic theology: continuation of all spiritual gifts and baptism in the Holy Spirit subsequent to conversion. Are you saying that they don't believe in these things, or do you believe that those views don't make one Charismatic?"

BTW, it's clear that anything you dislike on an emotional level is "cessationist" and anything you like is "Pentecostal", and it has nothing to do with the terms as historically used.
 
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MPaul

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BTW, it's clear that anything you dislike on an emotional level is "cessationist" and anything you like is "Pentecostal", and it has nothing to do with the terms as historically used.

SHEER BALONEY!!!!! You force your own interpretation onto my posting according to what serves your purposes. You change my words to mean what you what them to mean. BALONEY!!! BALONEY!!!! BALONEY!!! However, this is how Cessationists do arguments. It clear to you, just like it was clear to you I had a bad experience at the local church -- just like it was clear to you that I was using a definition of Cessationist that was different than DeArtega.

In reality, my posting is nothing like the accusation you have made, which is a personal attack. And I can set out exactly how I view Cessationists and Pentecostals, which is nothing as you have represented, but it would only be an exercise in futility, as you will not permit my words to mean what I want and intend them to mean.

Cessationists have a good side and bad side, as do Pentecostals. This forum is a Pentecostal environment, and it should reflect respect for Pentecostals. Violating that condition can result in posting which can then be twisted to further the objectives of the violation.
 
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JakeAM

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Thanks again for totally bypassing facts and engaging in nothing but empty words and double-talk. I'm not a cessationist, and neither is Calvary Chapel. I'm not anti-Pentecostal (understatement) and neither is Calvary Chapel.

This conversation is over, unless you want to address my points with substantive responses.
 
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