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If you guys are going to ignore what scriptures says, then there is nothing more to say.The 14th is not a "Special Sabbath" or a holy day. The 15th is both.
If you guys are going to ignore what scriptures says, then there is nothing more to say.
I drew a picture and gave biblical references.
Where does Scripture say the 14th is a "Special Sabbath"?If you guys are going to ignore what scriptures says, then there is nothing more to say.
The special Sabbath-S is where Passover is on the day of rest.Where does Scripture say the 14th is a "Special Sabbath"?
If, by "Passover", you mean Abib 14, then that is not correct. When Abib 15 falls on a weekly Sabbath it is called a "high" or "great" Sabbath. Abib 14 is not a holy day. Abib 15 is.The special Sabbath-S is where Passover is on the day of rest.
Here: John 19:31
Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
Your reply does not agree with scriptures.If, by "Passover", you mean Abib 14, then that is not correct. When Abib 15 falls on a weekly Sabbath it is called a "high" or "great" Sabbath. Abib 14 is not a holy day. Abib 15 is.
Your reply does not agree with scriptures.
GOOD POINT!I don't agree with the "when" Sabbath and the First day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread happen on the same day it is called a "High Day"
I never said the seventh day Sabbath and Unleavened Bread are on the same day.I don't agree with the "when" Sabbath and the First day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread happen on the same day it is called a "High Day"
YES! (with exclamation point).Chabad follows the mainstream Jewish calendar. They are not some outlier.
My point is that the Civil Hebrew Calendar and the Biblical Calendar do not agree. Nor does the Gregorian Calendar agree with the Biblical Calendar.GOOD POINT!
Over the years this MJ forum has went round and round about when Abib/Aviv/Nisan/Nissan 14 occurred (Wednesday, 4th day or Thursday, 5th day). Correct if i'm wrong, but believe this is the first time someone has put forward the belief that Yeshua's Resurrection occurred on the 2nd day of the week, Monday (see his bottom calendar).
My point being that mainstream Messianic Judaism follows whatever calendar feast days that Chabad follows. In April of 2004 Chabad has Abib/Aviv/Nisan/Nissan 14 occurring on April 5th (not April 3rd) and coincidently so does the Torah Creation Calendar ... TorahCalendar.com
The calendar that this member has posted with Abib/Aviv/Nisan/Nissan 14 falling on April 3rd (instead of the 5th) does not agree with mainstream Messianic Judaism and therefore is not helpful. Likewise, his reckoning that the 14th during the Feast of Passover occurred on Shabbat is not consistent with mainstream Messianic Judaism.
Nor does your calendar agree with the Chabad calendar. How do you hope to establish any timeline credibility with your posts? It should be obvious to you by now that your posts are not helpful.My point is that the Civil Hebrew Calendar and the Biblical Calendar do not agree. Nor does the Gregorian Calendar agree with the Biblical Calendar.
Just a bobservation. If it does not fit you I apologize.Why are you using that tone with me? Have I offended you in some way?
Since I first read your response I have tried to get answeres from history, articles, comments and any other place the search engine led me. There are many opinions and I do not believe either you nor I could say for sure How Israel reckoned time. We do know the moon was used to reckon certain feast days, otherwise I assume it really does not tell us of some written calendar.The Jews used the moon to determine day one of the month, but they did not have weekly Sabbaths falling on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th days of the month.
A was assuming time was reckoned by the moon. If I am wrong then you are correct and vice versa.I wrote: If a change did occur causing the Sabbath to not be on our Saturday, then it had to occur after Yeshua's day.
You wrote: Absolutely not true
My admission is above.Are you going to explain why it is untrue?
Just maybe this is a bit misleading. If your are trying to prove Sabbath and Passover being on the same day using this example you may have introduced the wrong scenario. First of all a person could buy their lamb on Friday the preparation day and prepare it before eve when it would be eaten. If, as I suspect in the scenario, the Passover would come on the first day as I believe it could, then surely a problem would arise. The person would have to either buy on or before preparation day or do as it is prescribed above. "Eve" in the scenario above would mean asthe Sun is going down at the end of the Sabbath. As you concluded never does the Passover fall on the weekly Sabbath because the lunar calendar was used. Again, I ask why did they not use the lunar calendar for all their time reckoning?Here is one historical document that proves the calendar in use during that period was NOT the lunar calendar:
The Mishnah says; "A man may borrow pitchers of wine and pitchers of oil from his neighbour, provided he does not say to him, `lend [them] [halweni] to me`; and similarly a woman [may borrow] loaves from her neighbour. If he does not trust him he leaves his cloak with him [as a pledge] and makes a reckoning with him after the Sabbath. In the same way, if the Eve of Passover in Jerusalem falls on a Sabbath, one leaves his cloak with him [the vendor] and receives his Paschal Lamb and makes a reckoning with him after the festival." Shabbath 23:1
Note the lunar calendar at the URL below does not have the Eve of Passover on a Sabbath, nor can that ever occur on a lunar calendar. Luni-Solar Calendar with Feast Days
I gave you my reasons and all you did is try to put me down. Why are you doing that to me? Your answer proves nothing.Surely you jest?? The Sabbath command specifically deals with not having your fellow man work so that he can rest as well. It is even moral towards animals.
Yes, resting is a moral thing for God to have done. That has nothing to do with the issue of whether the day would be dealing with morality or ceremony. Jews believe it is a ceremony.But the seventh day is the sabbath of YHWH thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. Deuteronomy 5:14
The problem SDAs have is the same for all groups. Reckoning of days began when God introduced the Sabbath after the crossing of the Red Sea. So for Jews and those following Israel's ritual days by using the seven day cycle, moving the beginning of the week from the reckoning point somewhere around Sinai East to the IDL would cause a major problem for those who feel the need to worship on the same cycle starting where the command was given. New Zealand and Australia should be observing Sabbath towards the end of the cycle. Instead The Sabbath day starts first in those countries and ends in countries East of the line. This is a fact you have to consider if you are not using the moon as your calendar.I wrote: The IDL is a recent invention (1884) not found in Scripture.
You wrote: Absolutely not true. Traders in the Pacific were using the date line. "The origin for this calendrical anomaly was the demarcation line proposed in 1493 by Pope Alexander VI in the bull Inter Caetera." A History of the International Date Line - Philippine adjustment
I was referring to the INTERNATIONAL Date Line, not a demarcation line between two territories that did not affect other countries.
I don't know how the Philippine Sabbath keepers handled that, if there were any, but it had no affect on the seven day cycle count of Israel or the USA.
And that is not ritual. Come on my friend.I know what ritual means. The Sabbath as well as every day of the year had some rituals to be carried out, but the Sabbath day itself is not a ritual. It is a holy, blessed, sanctified day of rest for all mankind.
I didn't think about looking in the Hebrew Bible. I was wrong and will give myself 12 lashes with a wet noodle for proclaiming an untruth.Are you saying the word "Torah" is not in Scripture??? Wow!! Here is one verse disproving that statement:
Jeremiah 31:33 כיH3588 But זאתH2063 this הבריתH1285 the covenant אשׁרH834 that אכרתH3772 I will make אתH854 with ביתH1004 the house ישׂראלH3478 of Israel; אחריH310 After הימיםH3117 days, ההםH1992 those נאםH5002 saith יהוהH3068 the LORD, נתתיH5414 I will put אתH853 תורתיH8451 my law בקרבםH7130 in their inward parts, ועלH5921 it in לבםH3820 their hearts; אכתבנהH3789 and write והייתיH1961 and will be להם לאלהיםH430 their God, והמהH1992 and they יהיוH1961 shall be לי לעם׃H5971 my people.
Strong's #8451 is the Hebrew word "Torah" (in red).
I agree.The New Covenant is not the same covenant given to Israel. Everything about it is better than the Sinai Covenant.
Better than what? It is still the same laws whether on stones and parchment or burdening the heart.The Torah is better in that it is no longer external, but internal.
If as you say it is Torah written on our hearts (613 laws as counted by the Jews) then what do you do with the sacrificial laws that you do not keep? Isn't is uncomfortable having the Holy Spirit prompting you to observe it and your refusal to do so?Writing the Torah on our hearts and minds coupled with the indwelling Spirit would indeed cause us to be more prone to keep it (Ezekiel 36:26-27).
Torah does not contain the new command found in Jn 13:34 So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Jesus loves us so much that He suffered and died for all our sins. Since Torah did not contain the greatest command it is not the one for Christians to follow.Torah is a law of love. Love for Yahweh and for man. Torah is also truth and light (Psalm 119:142 & Proverbs 6:23).
Same God, different time in His plan of salvation with the new and everlasting covenant of love. The love covenant is not at all like the mostly law covenant. Israel tried to keep their covenant out of duty or fear. Christians keep our covenant out of love for Jesus and our fellow man.I never said the NC is the old one warmed over. It is a totally new covenant. However, just because it is totally new doesn't mean certain aspects of it cannot be old. The Old Covenant included service to their God known as YHWH. Does the new give us a new God as well or is it the same God? The same God. The same Torah as well.
AbbaLove wrote:
My point being that mainstream Messianic Judaism follows whatever calendar feast days that Chabad follows. In April of 2004 Chabad has Abib/Aviv/Nisan/Nissan 14 occurring on April 5th (not April 3rd) and coincidently so does the Torah Creation Calendar ... TorahCalendar.com
The calendar that this member has posted with Abib/Aviv/Nisan/Nissan 14 falling on April 3rd (instead of the 5th) does not agree with mainstream Messianic Judaism and therefore is not helpful. Likewise, his reckoning that the 14th during the Feast of Passover occurred on Shabbat is not consistent with mainstream Messianic Judaism.
But the seventh day is the sabbath of YHWH thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. Deuteronomy 5:14
Yes, resting is a moral thing for God to have done. That has nothing to do with the issue of whether the day would be dealing with morality or ceremony. Jews believe it is a ceremony.
The problem SDAs have is the same for all groups. Reckoning of days began when God introduced the Sabbath after the crossing of the Red Sea.
So for Jews and those following Israel's ritual days by using the seven day cycle, moving the beginning of the week from the reckoning point somewhere around Sinai East to the IDL would cause a major problem for those who feel the need to worship on the same cycle starting where the command was given. New Zealand and Australia should be observing Sabbath towards the end of the cycle. Instead The Sabbath day starts first in those countries and ends in countries East of the line. This is a fact you have to consider if you are not using the moon as your calendar.
Better than what? It is still the same laws whether on stones and parchment or burdening the heart.
If as you say it is Torah written on our hearts (613 laws as counted by the Jews) then what do you do with the sacrificial laws that you do not keep? Isn't is uncomfortable having the Holy Spirit prompting you to observe it and your refusal to do so?
I have a better reckoning for what is written on our hearts, it is the law of love. Love is what the Holy Spirit is prompting Christians to do. I do not see where people are running to Saturday keeping churches because the Holy Spirit is prompting them to do so.
Torah does not contain the new command found in Jn 13:34 So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Jesus loves us so much that He suffered and died for all our sins. Since Torah did not contain the greatest command it is not the one for Christians to follow.
Israel tried to keep their covenant out of duty or fear. Christians keep our covenant out of love for Jesus and our fellow man.
No my friend the new covenant is not just the old one warmed over.
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