Cafeteria Catholics

[faerieevaH]

Jamme, I have never seen someone who sincerely tried (as if their salvation was at stake) to learn about their Catholic faith and was unable to find answers. If you are contending this happened, then I would love to know the details about it.

I fear it does happen a lot... especially to people who aren't educated 'in' their faith. My worst nightmare at the moment is the new teachers that are studying alongside of me who don't care what the church teaches at ALL. They aren't interested the least.
I rememeber a conversation I had with a third year student (about...38 years old I guess, who is learning to be a teacher of Catholic Religion in schools). She's a nice woman, so during breaks on saturday classes we talked. I asked her what her endpaper was about. She said she was going to make it about sexuality. I thought that was quite brave. In wishing to offer my help or sugestions, I asked her what she had read already, etc. She offered a few books that I didn't know... and I asked if she had read 'Humanae Vitae'. She hadn't read it... she didn't even know it existed. I started to explain. As soon as I started 'well... it's the churches position on... ' the discussion began about birth control. I pointed out how profetic the document was in predicting what would happen in society if birthcontrol became the norm. She agreed with me on that. However her idea is simple that we haven't learned how to use birthcontrol in the right way, which is in a loving relationship... (meaning that the topic of waiting till marriage also was already abolished for 'a loving relationship.)

SHE is going to be the only teacher that generations of children have till they are 18, after which they won't have any teaching anymore at all, because it isn't availbale. Few people ask the questions 'as if their salvation depends on it... because 90 % of the Catholics formed today are people that don't even have a concept of what salvation is or why it would be in any way, shape or form be tied to the church! How can we expect them to 'relentlessly search for the truth' if they never even learn that religion is important. That the truth may affect them... now and later. In fact that it should affect their lives to the core.

And IF they are going on their search... IF they are lucky enough to get one (or a few) good teachers... than they get contradictory responses from every side. So even if they get the information about the faith, a lot of people within the church, like their parents, their priests (!) their teachers) will tell them that information is not important! I rememeber you yourself telling about what you were taught in pre cana class. Our entire society, including most people in the Catholic Church, (here in Belgium at least) tells them that 'as long as you sort of try to be not too bad a person, everything is okay'.

 

[geocajun]

Right. But it doesn't give you the right to look down upon them.

I don't look down on them, and you are indicating that I do, which is libel. You should apologize.

As I said in my other post (and only DefensorFidei bothered to listen)

If you want people to read your posts, then I suggest being more charitable in the future. I for one ignore your posts 90% of the time, because of your lack of tact in talking to people.

is that errant Catholics don't deserve to be laughed at and be put into "those guys over there categories".

then don't do it. You are doing nothing right now, but putting ardent Catholics into a "guys over their category" while asserting your own superiority over them.
Make sure your own back yard is mowed before trying to mow others....

 

[geocajun]

Or maybe they did sincerely try. How do you define "sincerely try"? Just because they didn't come around doesn't mean they didn't try, you're logic is "they didn't come around, QED, they didn't try", that's a bad form of reasoning.

Maybe they did, but I dunno, and thats why I asked - I only said in my experience, i've never met one who did.
I didn't assert faulty logic like you claim I did, you just assumed my logic was one thing without any sort of real understanding.

 

[geocajun]

I fear it does happen a lot... especially to people who aren't educated 'in' their faith. My worst nightmare at the moment is the new teachers that are studying alongside of me who don't care what the church teaches at ALL. They aren't interested the least.
I rememeber a conversation I had with a third year student (about...38 years old I guess, who is learning to be a teacher of Catholic Religion in schools). She's a nice woman, so during breaks on saturday classes we talked. I asked her what her endpaper was about. She said she was going to make it about sexuality. I thought that was quite brave. In wishing to offer my help or sugestions, I asked her what she had read already, etc. She offered a few books that I didn't know... and I asked if she had read 'Humanae Vitae'. She hadn't read it... she didn't even know it existed. I started to explain. As soon as I started 'well... it's the churches position on... ' the discussion began about birth control. I pointed out how profetic the document was in predicting what would happen in society if birthcontrol became the norm. She agreed with me on that. However her idea is simple that we haven't learned how to use birthcontrol in the right way, which is in a loving relationship... (meaning that the topic of waiting till marriage also was already abolished for 'a loving relationship.)

SHE is going to be the only teacher that generations of children have till they are 18, after which they won't have any teaching anymore at all, because it isn't availbale. Few people ask the questions 'as if their salvation depends on it... because 90 % of the Catholics formed today are people that don't even have a concept of what salvation is or why it would be in any way, shape or form be tied to the church! How can we expect them to 'relentlessly search for the truth' if they never even learn that religion is important. That the truth may affect them... now and later. In fact that it should affect their lives to the core.

And IF they are going on their search... IF they are lucky enough to get one (or a few) good teachers... than they get contradictory responses from every side. So even if they get the information about the faith, a lot of people within the church, like their parents, their priests (!) their teachers) will tell them that information is not important! I rememeber you yourself telling about what you were taught in pre cana class. Our entire society, including most people in the Catholic Church, (here in Belgium at least) tells them that 'as long as you sort of try to be not too bad a person, everything is okay'.

I see what you are saying, and I agree there is a problem out there with the formation of catechists, don't get me wrong, however if I really want some information, and the only attempt I made to get it was to ask one person who happened to be a bad catechist before changing my religion 'out of desperation', then I submit to you that there was no real desperation in the first place.

 

[Bushido216]

I don't look down on them, and you are indicating that I do, which is libel. You should apologize.

I don't recall ever pointing to people in specific. I don't recall using your name. In the english language "you" is sometimes plural.

If you want people to read your posts, then I suggest being more charitable in the future. I for one ignore your posts 90% of the time, because of your lack of tact in talking to people.

Do you think I started off being annoyed at the general assembly? Does it bother you that I've taken the tact of not sugar-coating what I say and being realistic? I'm not at all trying to be a shock jock but if I have an opinion I'm going to share it honestly. That my opinion isn't always "111OEN i cant belief that ratzinger is pope thats uber cool211!" doesn't make it any more valid.

then don't do it. You are doing nothing right now, but putting ardent Catholics into a "guys over their category" while asserting your own superiority over them.
Make sure your own back yard is mowed before trying to mow others....

The "ardent Catholics" put me there, first. You are proving my point more clearly than I ever could have. I don't have an issue with "ardent Catholics", I have an issue with "ardent Catholics" who think that it gives them the right to dump on everyone else at will.

 

[Bushido216]

Maybe they did, but I dunno, and thats why I asked - I only said in my experience, i've never met one who did.
I didn't assert faulty logic like you claim I did, you just assumed my logic was one thing without any sort of real understanding.

I'm talking about your own experiences. I'm asking you to back up your experiences with something other than "they didn't see it my way, erego, they weren't trying".

 

[geocajun]

I don't recall ever pointing to people in specific. I don't recall using your name. In the english language "you" is sometimes plural.

you quoted me, thus your post was directed at me... how much more clear. . .

Do you think I started off being annoyed at the general assembly? Does it bother you that I've taken the tact of not sugar-coating what I say and being realistic? I'm not at all trying to be a shock jock but if I have an opinion I'm going to share it honestly. That my opinion isn't always "111OEN i cant belief that ratzinger is pope thats uber cool211!" doesn't make it any more valid.

So your just war-torn, and can't help being mean all the time? take control of yourself man, you can do it!

The "ardent Catholics" put me there, first. You are proving my point more clearly than I ever could have. I don't have an issue with "ardent Catholics", I have an issue with "ardent Catholics" who think that it gives them the right to dump on everyone else at will.

Nobody put you there but yourself, and you have acted the same way since the day I met you. You are targetting ardent catholics with your posts regardless of your intent, and I suggest you cease and desist right away.
I won't be responding to you after this unless its in private message - otherwise your posts will be ignored by me.

 

[CaDan]

So your just war-torn, and can't help being mean all the time? take control of yourself man, you can do it!

Interesting response from the man who cries "Libel!"

To get back on topic . . . .

I hope Benedict XVI does a lot more explaining a little less proclaiming. The common opinion on the ground is very much that the Church makes arbitrary pronouncements solely as an exercise in power. What will Benedict XVI do to counter that incorrect opinion?

By all accounts, including that of my bishop, Benedict XVI is a thoughtful, articulate, and kind man--certainly not the "attack dog" or "Grand Inquisitor" he has been portrayed to be. I hope he uses those skills and traits to truly teach.

 

[faerieevaH]

I see what you are saying, and I agree there is a problem out there with the formation of catechists, don't get me wrong, however if I really want some information, and the only attempt I made to get it was to ask one person who happened to be a bad catechist before changing my religion 'out of desperation', then I submit to you that there was no real desperation in the first place.

I agree to that, but I believe that the desire we wish for people to experience in seeking the truth must be taught or learned first. I believe that in the US, you still have a somewhat different position because there are a lot of protestant brothers there who also find the idea of salvation and search for God important. In Belgium and in many other 'traditionally Catholic' countries you have a minority of perhaps 1 % of people who are protestant and most Catholics (myself included) are quietly envious of their youthworking and the way that people are raised in their faith. Still... they are such a minority that the idea of 'seeking God', can't come from them in the general of society. What is left is a church in which 70 % of the people who teach don't care about what the church teaches. And from the 30 remaining percent 25 of them is ... not atuned to teach youth. "You have to do this because it's in the bible" doesn't work with people who haven't learned anything about religion at home or anywhere.

In our society... children have not learned to thirst... crave... something so hard and deep as is needed to go against apathic parents, teachers who ridicule God, Catholic teachers who prefer to teach the 'anti bullying program' three years on a row and 'why we need to work for the environment' instead of the... wonder of God.

The desperation for Gods word isn't there because children have been numbed... brainwashed... by society. And it are very, very... very few people who get out of there as it is all around them without an escape.

 

[geocajun]

Interesting response from the man who cries "Libel!"

I guess I don't understand the connection?

 

[TAquinas]

The church isn't just the magisterium, the church is also us. As catholics we believe that faith is active, salvation is active. Christ is active in us and through us. He isn't the absentee God. It isn't only, did "he do enough" it is also did we as lay people and friends, or even aquaintances do enough. When someone leaves the church, we shouldn't put it squarely on the magisterium, but also on ourselves. Do not only pray for them, but we should pray for ourselves as well.

Christ took the apostles into the temple and pointed to a pharisee and a tax collector. The tax collector said, thank God I'm not him, thinking himself pious. The tax collector prayed to God to forgive him.

We can't adopt the attitude of the pharisee and say he should have searched more, and thank God I'm not him. But rather pray that we can be like christ and take pity on those in trouble. Christ didn't come to heal the healthy, but the sick, those in most need of his help. We can do no less. Paul told us to build each other up. How can we do that?

Invite them to Mass
Invite them to Adoration
Invite them to a bible study
Invite them to come to confession with you
Invite them to your house
Invite them to say the rosary with you
Invite them to your missionary work

If they say "no thanks" don't be discouraged, but keep inviting them. We shouldn't be concerned for our own salvation at the expense of caring about someone elses salvation. Christ came because he cared about others salvation (ours). If we disconnect ourselves from others salvation, and only care about our own, that is a self love, not love of your brother.

Who are our brothers? Other christians, but also priests, nuns, monks, bishops and even the Pope. Even though he is "Papa" he is also our brother, and our brothers have called for our assistance. We are called as a priesthood of believers to help in the same mission. The poor are not only those outside of the catholic church, or even christianity, but also within the church itself.

Remember the parable of the sower.

Peace to all and God bless
Yours in Christ.

 

[Skripper]

***Mod Hat On***

Would it be too much to ask to keep this thread on topic instead of all the ad hominem I'm seeing in here? Let's keep it on topic, folks, without the personal attacks, please.

***Mod Hat Off***

 

[Bushido216]

you quoted me, thus your post was directed at me... how much more clear. . .

I see what you're saying and I didn't mean that you had necessarily. Essentially it ought to have been read, "regardless of whether or not you criticize, it doesn't give you or anyone else the right to." I take responsibility for the confusion.

So your just war-torn, and can't help being mean all the time? take control of yourself man, you can do it!

I do not feel the need to respond with any more courtesy than I have recieved. I am actually pretty nice to alot of people. That I don't go out of my way for you isn't a reflection on my being war-torn, it's a reflection on not feeling like you deserve the extra effort. I haven't called you names, insulted you personally, or called you anything but a Catholic Christian. I haven't insulted or ad-hom'd at all. I just don't go out of my way to appear like I care if you dislike me or not.

If this insults you, then I apologize. It's not an insult. It's a dry fact. There are very few people with which I concern myself in that manner. Those over the internet tend not to rank highly on that list.

I've called into question some tendencies that I feel as a group some Catholics have. I will refrain from commenting on your defensiveness.

Nobody put you there but yourself, and you have acted the same way since the day I met you. You are targetting ardent catholics with your posts regardless of your intent, and I suggest you cease and desist right away.
I won't be responding to you after this unless its in private message - otherwise your posts will be ignored by me.

"Targetting?" I call it calling out and requesting critical thinking. Is it too much to ask that people read my posts? Do you realize how often I get criticized for something I didn't say? I can't state a position without being yelled at for something I don't agree to. I've only rarely had a single thing I've said on this forum actually listened to. Normally I get called a dissenter, told to submit, and had random bits of Canon and Scripture thrown my way with a nickle and dime store saying like "And this is why we must submit to the Magesterium! " That had nothing to do with my post.

ShannonMcMorland went off on me about how I didn't have any right to call her out on her anti-abortion advocacy because I didn't know her. After reading a post wherein I said I was speaking to the forum as a GROUP.

And I'm the agressor? I have the decency to read what other people write to me, at least. I have the decency to respond to this even though I know you won't.

My points are still valid. Regardless of how you feel I present them. I'll agree to extend you a courtesy I wouldn't otherwise if you agree to take me seriously.

 

[Mulutka]

I have a question about being a "buffet Catholic". Plain and simply, I LOVE being Catholic, love Mass, love the firm foundation in Tradition and everything... but I don't believe contraceptives are sinful. That's the only thing I disagree with. Am I considered a "buffet Catholic"?

*I'm asking for honest answers, not to kick dirt up.

 

[geocajun]

I have a question about being a "buffet Catholic". Plain and simply, I LOVE being Catholic, love Mass, love the firm foundation in Tradition and everything... but I don't believe contraceptives are sinful. That's the only thing I disagree with. Am I considered a "buffet Catholic"?

*I'm asking for honest answers, not to kick dirt up.

Honest answers? well ok, here they come, hold on to your hat

So long as you aren't using contraceptives, it is not sinful to simply hold an opinion.
If you are using them, with the knowledge that the Church teaches they are sinful, and always wrong to use, then you do incurr guilt for it and should not approach Holy Communion until you have ceased their use, and been to Sacramental Confession.

 

[Mulutka]

Honest answers? well ok, here they come, hold on to your hat

So long as you aren't using contraceptives, it is not sinful to simply hold an opinion.
If you are using them, with the knowledge that the Church teaches they are sinful, and always wrong to use, then you do incurr guilt for it and should not approach Holy Communion until you have ceased their use, and been to Sacramental Confession.

So since I'm single and am against premarital sex I'm ok?

 

[geocajun]

So since I'm single and am against premarital sex I'm ok?

premarital sex (fornication or adultry) is an entirely different serious sin.
I'd suggest you take this time to read up on the Church's teaches, and reasons for Her teachings on the matter to help you form your conscience better. You don't want to be faced with not understanding it later in life if you were to get married, and be pressured to contracept by a spouse.

To address your question specifically, if you are not using contraceptives, and not having sex since you are single, then yes, 'you are OK' as far as receiving Holy Communion.

Also, there is a book called "life giving love" by Kimberly Hahn, which I am told is just awesome about explaining this teaching of the Church, and from a womans perspective.

 

[Mulutka]

geocajun Thanks for the book: I'll definatly look into it since one day I may have to make a personal decision about them (heh heh, although it seems to me that I'll never get married lo). And we're definatly in agreement about premartial sex being a grave sin - which is why I mentioned that I don't believe in it sex before marriage so that's why I'm not too concerned about contraceptives right now.

When a non-Catholic asks me on my stance about contraceptives, I usually say that I personally don't see what's wrong with them but I'm not well informed on why the Catholic church dis-allows them. Is that alright?

 

[geocajun]

When a non-Catholic asks me on my stance about contraceptives, I usually say that I personally don't see what's wrong with them but I'm not well informed on why the Catholic church dis-allows them. Is that alright?

You could say that sure, there is nothing wrong with it - particularly because you were sure to clarify that it was your opinion apart from what the Church teaches, and that you aren't informed of why the Church teaches what she teaches. But soon you will be right?