C vs. E - Pointless debate

[WWJND]

Does anyone else see the looming fact about these type of debates? There is no point. You can't convince the other, you end up fighting, disagreeing, falling for and committing the same fallacies, and then complain about the other using fallacy. It's pointless. Christianity is based on it adherents having an absolute "FAITH", even if the specifics differ within denominations. Some believe the Bible is predominantly metaphorical (if not occasionally errant) and still consider themselves Christians, others believe it to be the infallible word of God, not to mention the gray area in between.

You will never convince some Christians of something that they were programmed to deny. There is not enough evidence to make final decisions about the nature of existence for most people. Yes, the evidence (IMO) points strongly to evolution (on micro and macro scales), but I can tell you right now, that even if science were to make some discovery that absolutely made the entire theory of evolution fact (indisputable withint the scientific community and the general public), a large number of people will deny it because they have FAITH that you are simply trying to delude them of the true nature of existence, that it is all a grand conspiracy to refute their beliefs, or you are errant ("as is the nature of man")

For you C and IDists, get real. You base your "beliefs" on faith. Why do you feel the need to argue them with science? Just stay out of the fight. Your faith is all you really need anyway. Scientific proof (if you chose to see it as such), wouldn't help your cause anyway. Do you think God intended you to search for evidence that his word was the truth? No, you accept it on faith. Thus, your debates are pointless and do not serve to "spread the gospel". They are self serving at best, useless most of the time.

Just my two cents.

Let's see the flames!!!

-WWJND

 

[Aron-Ra]

I agree with you completely. The reason I do this is not to promote evolution, nor to attack Christianity. I am trying to make the blind denials of faith obvious even to some of the lurkers who may be open-minded enough to understand what they're seeing, and learn to reason instead.

 

[larry lunchpail]

tell us something we dont know. no, really.

 

[AirPo]

There is a point IRL though. The point is to show that creationism is not science, and should not be taught as such.

 

[Jet Black]

oh we have converted a couple of creationists.

 

[PhantomLlama]

oh we have converted a couple of creationists.

Anyone remember MySaviour? He was cool.

 

[WWJND]

I guess I can see why you do it. Separates the people from the sheeple. Maybe you save a few from the clutches of culturalism. Thanks for the replies.

 

[Loudmouth]

It is especially important, particularly in this debate forum, to show christians that evolutionists are not "out to get them". Also, it gives christians who are struggling with evolution and their christian faith a place to talk with other christians who have already favorably reconciled the two. This debate also shows how some creationists prefer to worship man's Bible over God's Creation, expecting their own translations to trump what God left evident in his creation.

 

[WWJND]

Very well said.

 

[Prometheus_ash]

Personally, I do it cause it gives me a chance to stroke me ego.

IN seriousness, mostly the same as the others, for the chance to change a few peolpe mind. Evolution and christianity dont have to bash heads, but creationsim and evolution certainly do.

 

[lucaspa]

Does anyone else see the looming fact about these type of debates? There is no point. You can't convince the other, ... Christianity is based on it adherents having an absolute "FAITH", even if the specifics differ within denominations.

Sorry, but faith need not be "blind". Faith can be very, very reasonable and employ reason.

You will never convince some Christians of something that they were programmed to deny.

That's not the point. We know that many creationists will not change their mind no matter what you say. The point is not to let them infect other people with the mistaken ideas. For two reasons:
1. So they don't destroy Christianity.
2. So they don't destroy science.

If you go into this discussion with the desire to personally "win", i.e. convincing the other guy, then IMO you are in it for the wrong reasons.

There is not enough evidence to make final decisions about the nature of existence for most people.

As you pointed out above, this isn't about the "nature of existence". It is about how creation happened. Whether you believe God did evolution or you believe evolution happened on its own is besides the point. We aren't arguing the existence of God here.

a large number of people will deny it because they have FAITH that you are simply trying to delude them of the true nature of existence, that it is all a grand conspiracy to refute their beliefs, or you are errant ("as is the nature of man")

We know they would. Because they have tied the existence of God to the how that God created. They mistakenly think that God creating by evolution means there is no God. That too is beside the point.

For you C and IDists, get real. You base your "beliefs" on faith. Why do you feel the need to argue them with science?

I have an essay by Berry you really need to read.

 

[lucaspa]

I am trying to make the blind denials of faith obvious even to some of the lurkers who may be open-minded enough to understand what they're seeing, and learn to reason instead.

As for the rest of the debate, you're absolutely right.

That last sentence goes against your claim that you can convince any creationist in open debate!

From your posts, I thought you were here for the ego boost and power trip. Your self descriptions certainly make you sound like the most fantastic thing since sliced bread!

 

[Aron-Ra]

That last sentence goes against your claim that you can convince any creationist in open debate!

Yeah, I'm sure it does. I just couldn't help posting that picture. But I have actually learned more from the debates I've lost on the web than I ever would have picked up in school. So I don't really believe that slogan.

I can and have convinced a very few antievolutionists to reconsider and reverse their position, ...when they honestly believed theirs was truth. That's actually the only time you can convince them. Otherwise, they know to avoid me.

Not all of the creationists are so blindly deceived. I believe that a very few of them were honestly deceived, kept in the dark like I was, but are capable of recognizing that if you can get them into the discussion to find out where the confusion is.

I mean, all of them know they're lying if they've already debated this issue for very long at all. You can tell they know this on some level because that's the only reason they would all be so terrified to answer any of my questions. Some of them however aren't able to keep their dishonesty contained within the subconcious. They never change their minds during the discussion of course, but they can change it within a couple of weeks afterward, after what they've learned has sort of settled in. There have been a very few times when I would hear the admission, and I'm happy to say that each of my "victims" felt better off later on.

From your posts, I thought you were here for the ego boost and power trip. Your self descriptions certainly make you sound like the most fantastic thing since sliced bread!

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know?

Seriously, my motivation is political, not egotistical,

I've had three failures that really bother me, all of whom were people I know and respect, but who refuse to debate me, and all of them seem to know full well why they can't. One promised to get further than anyone else, but his 2nd reply is already a month late, and I don't think I will ever see it. I've known a few others who said they needed to believe what they did, even if they secretly knew it wasn't true. And I know one who evidently knows that none of his position is true at all, but he won't dare put himself into a position where he would have to admit that to anyone, including himself.

He is the principle of a fundamentalist Christian school who's primary maxim is that the Bible is the only source of truth in our world. He was my best friend back in high school, and I really did think highly of him. In some ways, he is the best person I have ever known, though I can't understand how he turned out after we grew up and moved on. Now that we've crossed paths again, we had a wonderful visit, but I eventually had to tell him (as a moral obligation) that the YEC lessons he was teaching (with Hovind's videos) were nothing but lies, and that I could readily and easily prove that however he needed me to. But contrary to everything I would ever have believed about him, he doesn't want me to, and I can tell that he doesn't want to see me anymore because I threaten his faith.

He said you either believe all of it or none of it, and anyone who doesn't swallow the whole Bible literally and in its entirety isn't really a "true" Christian. He's too far gone. Reason cannot reach him anymore. He has chosen Luther's way instead. He even told me he treats non-Christian kids more harshly because he figures they deserve it since they would doubtless become problem students eventually anyway, all because they didn't believe. So if I can accomplish anything on these boards, maybe I'll stop someone from turning out like him.

 

[Asimov]

It is especially important, particularly in this debate forum, to show christians that evolutionists are not "out to get them".

*hides large knife*

Yea....that's right...now come over here and chat with me creationists.

 

[aeroz19]

oh we have converted a couple of creationists.

Who? I hope you haven't added me to your list of converts yet. I might never be on the list.

I'm going to be hanging out here in the E&C threads again now, so I shall be resuming my in depth look into evolution.

 

[USincognito]

Who? I hope you haven't added me to your list of converts yet. I might never be on the list.

I'm going to be hanging out here in the E&C threads again now, so I shall be resuming my in depth look into evolution.

It'll be good to have you involved again. And I'm availible on my off nights for chat if you have questions you think I can answer. I haven't added you to the list. I don't figure anyone becomes a TE until they either make a response fully supportive of evolution or post a coming out of the creationist closet thread like over in CO CS&E forum.

 

[Jet Black]

Who? I hope you haven't added me to your list of converts yet. I might never be on the list.

I'm going to be hanging out here in the E&C threads again now, so I shall be resuming my in depth look into evolution.

not you note that lucaspa saved the day and kept them as theistic evolutionists, depriving me of a few EAC (Evil Atheist Conspiriacy) air miles

 

[aeroz19]

not you note that lucaspa saved the day and kept them as theistic evolutionists, depriving me of a few EAC (Evil Atheist Conspiriacy) air miles

LOL! Too bad for you, eh?

 

[aeroz19]

It'll be good to have you involved again. And I'm availible on my off nights for chat if you have questions you think I can answer. I haven't added you to the list. I don't figure anyone becomes a TE until they either make a response fully supportive of evolution or post a coming out of the creationist closet thread like over in CO CS&E forum.

 

[Jet Black]

LOL! Too bad for you, eh?

not too bad. I'm still waiting for the jet to be put together by a tornado passing through a junkyard