C.S. Lewis Defense of Eternal Hell - Why Even it Doesn't Work

[Anto9us]

Be advised that Swedenborg's work lay behind William Blake's "illuminated book" THE MARRIAGE OF HEAVEN OF HELL - a pretty bizarre work of prose poems and "plates of artwork" done in an unusual method of etching metal plates with acid and then making imprints and coloring in the imprints with something like water-colors. Of course everyone of Blake's books was completely hand-produced.

Blake had been a follower of Swedenborg's theological thought for a while, then at some point turned against it - there are vague refernces to Swedenborg all thru THE MARRIAGE OF HEAVEN AND HELL, but at one point it is blatant - Blake says of the empty Tomb - "Christ's graveclothes are Swedenborg's writings all folded up". To read/look at Blake's MARRIAGE work (or any of his 'illuminated works') is like reading a comic book or graphic novel from centuries ago...

C S Lewis said of his own work THE GREAT DIVORCE "Blake has written of the marriage of heaven and hell, I have written of their divorce"

In "the great divorce" an unbeliever is talking to a younger relative who is a believer; everyone has gone to a "holding station and those bound for hell have to line up and get on a BUS to go to hell.

The older guy is still defiant, castigating his younger relative for his theological belief, scoffing at him that "at one point you sounded like you believed in a literal hell!"

as he himself prepared to board the bus

the imaginations of Emmanuel Swedenborg, William Blake, and C S Lewis are all off the charts

at least Lewis is in the realm of 'normal theology', as for Swedenborg and Blake - prolly best to discuss them in UT

 

[Praisegod Barebones]

Anto9us, I would not advise studying Swedenborg by studying Blake; studying Swedenborg takes the better part of a lifetime even when done directly! Although I am not a Swedenborgian, I do have dear friends who are, and we discuss his writings all the time. Swedenborg was a scientist turned theologian, and he therefore approaches Christianity with beautiful logic; some of his explanations are absolutely beautiful. Here are just two small examples on the subject at hand:

“Every one’s state after death is spiritual, which is such that he cannot be anywhere but in the delight of his own love, which he has acquired for himself by his life in the natural world. From this it appears plainly that no one can be let into the delight of heaven who is in the delight of hell... This may be still more certainly concluded from the fact that no one is forbidden after death to ascend to heaven. The way is shown him, opportunity is given him, and he is let in. But when one who is in the delight of evil comes into heaven, and breathes in its delight, he begins to be oppressed, and racked at heart, and to feel in a swoon, in which he writhes like a snake put near a fire; and with his face turned away from heaven and toward hell, he flees headlong, nor does he rest until he is in the society of his own love.” – Emanuel Swedenborg, Divine Providence, nn 319, 338

“Evil with man is hell for him; for it is the same thing whether we say evil or hell. And as a man is the cause of his own evil, therefore he, and not the Lord, also leads himself into hell. So far is the Lord from leading man into hell, that He delivers him from it as far as a man does not will and love to be in his own evil.

All a man’s will and love remains with him after death. He who wills and loves evil in the world, wills and loves the same evil in the other life; and then he no longer suffers himself to be withdrawn from it. This is the reason that a man who is in evil is bound fast to hell and is actually there, too, in spirit, and after death he desires nothing more than to be where the evil is. After death, therefore, a man casts himself into hell, and not the Lord.” – Emanuel Swedenborg, Heaven and Hell, n. 547

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes, I do think this is what he says.

Which is an interesting way to look at things...but it goes directly against one clear and popular account of hell presented in the Bible: The Rich Man and Lazarus:

“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “

According to this story, the rich man in hell is clearly in agony because he doesn't like hell and doesn't want to be there. His tone definitely seems repentant. And Abraham recognizes him entirely as the person that he is - he is there with all his thoughts and memories in hell, and he is even pleading not for his own release, but that his brothers not to make the same mistakes he made. Every one of these qualities seems to go against the "hell lover who hates God and everything good and there is nothing human in him" argument - in fact it presents a tragic figure that people in heaven should feel forever sad for. Even if he was a stranger, let alone your own brother/son.

It would only constrast with that story if it were universally accepted that the story is literal. Since it is not universally accepted as such, and whether we accept it that way or not, the truth's expressed are still true: Hell not nice and to be avoided, Heaven Good and what we were made for.

As long as we are speculating, maybe the rich man was not there long enough for the hatred to really work on him. ; )

Much of what CS Lewis speculation falls out from accepting the Church's view of the purpose of man. One thing that attracted me to the Church is the way Scripture, teachings and Truth's are all interwoven and supportive.

 

[HighwayMan]

Anto9us, I would not advise studying Swedenborg by studying Blake; studying Swedenborg takes the better part of a lifetime even when done directly! Although I am not a Swedenborgian, I do have dear friends who are, and we discuss his writings all the time. Swedenborg was a scientist turned theologian, and he therefore approaches Christianity with beautiful logic; some of his explanations are absolutely beautiful. Here are just two small examples on the subject at hand:

“Every one’s state after death is spiritual, which is such that he cannot be anywhere but in the delight of his own love, which he has acquired for himself by his life in the natural world. From this it appears plainly that no one can be let into the delight of heaven who is in the delight of hell... This may be still more certainly concluded from the fact that no one is forbidden after death to ascend to heaven. The way is shown him, opportunity is given him, and he is let in. But when one who is in the delight of evil comes into heaven, and breathes in its delight, he begins to be oppressed, and racked at heart, and to feel in a swoon, in which he writhes like a snake put near a fire; and with his face turned away from heaven and toward hell, he flees headlong, nor does he rest until he is in the society of his own love.” – Emanuel Swedenborg, Divine Providence, nn 319, 338

“Evil with man is hell for him; for it is the same thing whether we say evil or hell. And as a man is the cause of his own evil, therefore he, and not the Lord, also leads himself into hell. So far is the Lord from leading man into hell, that He delivers him from it as far as a man does not will and love to be in his own evil.

All a man’s will and love remains with him after death. He who wills and loves evil in the world, wills and loves the same evil in the other life; and then he no longer suffers himself to be withdrawn from it. This is the reason that a man who is in evil is bound fast to hell and is actually there, too, in spirit, and after death he desires nothing more than to be where the evil is. After death, therefore, a man casts himself into hell, and not the Lord.” – Emanuel Swedenborg, Heaven and Hell, n. 547

Interesting, that does sound much of what C.S. Lewis would agree with.

Along the lines of "hell is locked from the inside" and people who eventually end up in hell having chosen such a destiny.

I wonder, however, what would Swedenborg or Lewis' atheist or non-Christian friends and relatives say about such an idea. Or what mine would say. In fact, it so happens I have a large number of atheist friends, and we enjoy many of the same things, have the same thoughts on a number of subjects, even though they find the entire concept of religion silly. I can't quite imagine, or in any way conceive, how in the light of an afterlife they will "writhes like a snake put near a fire" if they were to see heaven or God, and run toward tell. It would make no sense given everything I know about them, it's impossible to really grasp that. Or perhaps I am looking at it the wrong way and I should be concerned for myself - if I am so like my friends and they would shun heaven and choose hell given the willful opportunity...would I not do the same? I cannot say I could understand what would create such an eternal chasm between us.

I wonder what Swedenborg or Lewis would say about some of the comments Pope Francis has made on the subject, for example:

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

 

[Merrily]

I reckon C.S. Lewis had it about right.
Hell is the place that Christian's aren't going to.

 

[Praisegod Barebones]

Highwayman, You're getting it now. According to Swedenborg, those who love the Lord and who are led by Him in this lifetime attain to a higher state of consciousness in regard to earthly matters. When they "die", their spirits seek a "level" in the spiritual realm which is in harmony with their understanding and affections. Heaven is love of the Lord and hell is rejection of the Lord. If you ENJOY lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, etc. then you will end up in a state that THOSE ABOVE YOU will term "hellish". YOU, however, will be in YOUR element.

(I'd love to talk about this idea a little more...but work is calling. I'll get back to you later.)

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Interesting, that does sound much of what C.S. Lewis would agree with.

Along the lines of "hell is locked from the inside" and people who eventually end up in hell having chosen such a destiny.

I wonder, however, what would Swedenborg or Lewis' atheist or non-Christian friends and relatives say about such an idea. Or what mine would say. In fact, it so happens I have a large number of atheist friends, and we enjoy many of the same things, have the same thoughts on a number of subjects, even though they find the entire concept of religion silly. I can't quite imagine, or in any way conceive, how in the light of an afterlife they will "writhes like a snake put near a fire" if they were to see heaven or God, and run toward tell. It would make no sense given everything I know about them, it's impossible to really grasp that. Or perhaps I am looking at it the wrong way and I should be concerned for myself - if I am so like my friends and they would shun heaven and choose hell given the willful opportunity...would I not do the same? I cannot say I could understand what would create such an eternal chasm between us.

I wonder what Swedenborg or Lewis would say about some of the comments Pope Francis has made on the subject, for example:

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

The Pope's comments address the answers to your question regarding your atheist friends. He is saying in the heart, we all know we are suppose to do good, not evil. To know, love and serve the Supreme Good is the Catholic definition of our purpose, why God made us. Which is why we know ALL know we are suppose to "do good". So to the degree we "do good" we are serving the purpose for which we are made, whether we agree on the reason we should "do good" or not (atheist).

In the Catholic view (and it is not unique) it is not a given that all Catholics are going to Heaven, nor is it a given that all your atheist friends wind up writhing like snakes in the next life if they approach God there. Essentially everyone is judged on whether they "did good" with the life God gave them.

 

[Praisegod Barebones]

Yes, I don't know where that quote from Pope Francis came from, but it does sound authentic. And I also agree with DrBubbaLove's explanation. Furthermore, we are only judged on what we CAN be held accountable. As the Lord Himself tells us in Luke 12:47-48 "And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more."

Swedenborg further distills this down to the personal affections we have that give rise to the actions we make. It is our "love of truth" and our inner acknowledgment of the "truth of love" that guides our souls into heaven in the spiritual realm following physical death. Let me give you an example:

You are one of two people riding home in a late-night city bus. Suddenly, the man next to you pulls the cord to signal his stop, gets up out of his seat to head toward the exit as the bus slows down. You see his wallet flip out of his back pocket onto the seat beside you. he doesn't notice, but continues to step off the bus. Do YOU a) Quickly call out to him "Sir! You dropped your wallet!" and jump up to hand it to him. or b)Turn your head away and pretend you didn't notice his wallet until he has stepped off the bus.

If you do A without hesitation then you are innately compelled by the "love of truth" and the "truth of love" and are therefore present with the Lord.

On the other hand, if you do B then you are "turning away" from heaven, "writhing like a snake put near a fire".

And Swedenborg goes even furhter (here's where it gets spooky and somewhat unorthodox): When you do A the will of God is acting directly through you; when you do B an infernal spirit in hell is acting through you... he (or she) isn't aware that he's acting through you...he thinks he is acting on his own...but your compliance allows him to do what he wills...and, at the same time, binds your spirit ever more closely to his.

The course of actions you take in your life will ultimately determine the character of your soul. The Lord, who IS Love and Truth, constantly leading you in one direction... Souls in hell constantly trying to tempt you in the other direction. When you die, your spirit will comfortably dwell with those with whom you share the greatest spiritual affection...not necessarily with people you walked with and talked to directly in this life, but with the spirits you allowed yourself to associate with by your ACTIONS.

There's SO MUCH more, and it goes even deeper, but that's Swedenborg in a nutshell.