C.S. Lewis -- "An Anonymous Orthodox"?

minasoliman · Aug 23, 2005

Indeed, while the Coptic Church has a problem with ANY sort of purgation, I have to admit there is a Church Tradition of purgation.

But there isn't a concensus on the afterlife exactly, for neither eye seen, ear heard, nor heart able to ponder. The best thing to know is to do God's will, and you'll know exactly where you're going.

God bless.

Rilian · Aug 23, 2005

Monica said:
I don't think there is any problem with this idea of purgatory.

I don't either and I agree with knee-v's post.

Some people just recoil at the word Purgatory itself.

xristos.anesti · Aug 23, 2005

I would not run and say that there is nothing wrong with the idea of purgatory. After all, the pseudo council of Florence was condemned with all the points of that council:

1) on the papal supremacy,
2) on procession of the Holy Spirit,
3) on purgatory,
4) on azymes in the Eucharist.

Obviously fathers thought something was wrong with it.

Cappadocian · Aug 23, 2005

elizabethevangeline said:
I think what CS Lewis believed was always right there for anyone to read...if the reader bothered to think about it and figure out how Lewis' writings might not be compatible with all the protestant assumptions.

You are right -- It's pretty clear in "Problem of Pain," "Reflection on the Psalms," "Mere Christianity" and "The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe." Sometimes I wonder if anybody actually reads him or thinks about what he says. But certainly he never comes right out and says that Latin theology is superstitious heresy.

Monica child of God 1 · Aug 23, 2005

xristos.anesti said:
I would not run and say that there is nothing wrong with the idea of purgatory. After all, the pseudo council of Florence was condemned with all the points of that council:

1) on the papal supremacy,
2) on procession of the Holy Spirit,
3) on purgatory,
4) on azymes in the Eucharist.

Obviously fathers thought something was wrong with it.

But the idea of purgatory that CS Lewis expressed in the link is not the purgatory understood by Roman Catholics.

CS Lewis said:
"Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?

...Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on the 'Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory' as that Romish doctrine had then become.....

...the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer 'With its darkness to affront that light'...

Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would in not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.'

This is not the purgatory of indulgences and all of that.

M.

Cappadocian · Aug 23, 2005

Philip said:
But there is one important thing to remember: He remain outside the Church.

This is very true -- he never joined in communion with the one holy apostolic church and therefore cannot be considered a true Orthodox.

Of course, Lewis remained an Anglican throughout his life; however, it is significant to note that for more than a century, and all through Lewis' life, the Anglican and Orthodox churches were studying union. The Anglican Church began in the 16th century by adapting the liturgy of the Celtic (orthodox) church that was introduced when Britain was a Roman province, long before the schism between the Roman West and the Orthodox East. The Orthodox gave up the quest for union in the late 1960s when it became apparent that liberalism, not orthodox theology, would prevail in the Church of England.

In a lot of ways High Church Anglicanism is very similar to Orthodoxy (or at least it used to be). The Oxford Movement and the Tractarians in an earlier generation attempted to trace Anglican apostolic succession from the pre-Schism Orthodox period. And even when the Anglican Church was in communion with Rome from 1000-1500, the Anglican church was always very independent-minded and resisted the compulsion of Rome.

C.S. Lewis hints in Mere Christianity that he was Anglican because Anglicans are permitted to believe in an Orthodox theology of atonement, while Protestants and Catholics are not:

Theories about Christ's death are not Christianity: they are explanations about how it works. Christians would not all agree as to how important those theories are. My own church - the Church of England - does not lay down any one of them as the right one. The Church of Rome goes a bit further.

xristos.anesti · Aug 23, 2005

Monica,

Ah.. sorry... I did not realise.. never mind.. can not comment on CSL.. never read anything from him... CCEL has some of his works... so.. will see.

I was making a comment on the view that there is nothing wrong with RC view of purgatory (if indeed anyone even suggested that).. I mean if fathers said it is bad, it is.

Sorry again.

Monica child of God 1 · Aug 23, 2005

I wish that it were possible to free the word purgatory of its Latin connotations.

purgationnoun, the act of purging or being purged

purgeverb, 2) to get rid of something undesirable, impure or imperfect; 3) to make somebody or something pure and free from guilt, sin or defilement

M.

xristos.anesti · Aug 23, 2005

I wish it was possible to free the word Catholic of Latin connotations...

Catholic - according TO THE WHOLE (of the Church).

Roman Catholic is a contradiction in terms of the worst kind... it is like saying... ahh there is the list of oxymorons, choose for yourself.

Rilian · Aug 23, 2005

xristos.anesti said:
I would not run and say that there is nothing wrong with the idea of purgatory. After all, the pseudo council of Florence was condemned with all the points of that council:

I don't think what St. Mark Eugenikos objected to was the idea of purgation itself though, it was the process. The central point being is purgation a process of experiencing God's created grace, or his uncreated energies.

Roman Catholic is a contradiction in terms of the worst kind... it is like saying... ahh there is the list of oxymorons, choose for yourself.

In fairness, it was not a term they invented and many object to it.

xristos.anesti · Aug 23, 2005

Rilian said:
I don't think what St. Mark Eugenikos objected to was the idea of purgation itself though, it was the process. The central point being is purgation a process of experiencing God's created grace, or his uncreated energies.

That is fair enough, are there any bishops of the Church that accept it?

In fairness, it was not a term they invented and many object to it.

Their official name is Sancta Romana Ecclesia (SRE) = Most Holy Roman Church.

So, if anyone invented it it was them. I can not imagine Orthodox giving them that name.

Cappadocian · Aug 23, 2005

Rilian said:
I don't either and I agree with knee-v's post.

Some people just recoil at the word Purgatory itself.

I believe Purgatory to be among the most beautiful concepts in the Christian religion and I wholeheartedly agree with Knee-V's post. Purgatory does have a strong presence in the tradition of the early church -- it was described by Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and others. My favorite expression of Purgatory is by St. Clement of Alexandria:

"How then", they say, "If the Lord loves man, and is good, is He angry and punishes?" Many of the passions are cured by punishment. For reproof is, as it were, the surgery of the passions of the soul. Reproach is like application of medicines, dissolving the callousness of the passions, and purging the impurities of the lewdness of life; and in addition, reducing the excrescences of pride, restoring the patient to the healthy and true state of humanity. For reproof is, as it were, the surgery of the passions of the soul; and the passions are, as it were, an abscess of the truth, which must be cut open by an incision of the lancet of reproof. The punishment that God imposes is due not to anger, but to justice, for the neglect of justice contributes nothing to our improvement.

But I do not want to wait until I die before I enter Purgatory.

xristos.anesti · Aug 23, 2005

So, are we talking about Latin purgatory? Are we talking about CSL purgatory or are we talking about something else...

If we have three objects of the same name, and they are not the same, then it is a mathematical impossibility for all three to be right and same.

So, what are we talking about?

Knee -V is talking about Latin view of purgatory quoting Ratzinger/Benedict XVI,
Rilian is talking about same (Latin) view of purgatory quoting Knee-V quoting Ratzinger/Benedict XVI and quoting Monica who is quoting CSL - NOT Latin view,
Cappadocian is talking about Orthodox View quoting Rilian who quotes Knee-V quoting Ratzinger/Benedict XVI which is Latin view and Monica who is quoting CSL,
Monica is talking about CSL view of purgatory which is not Latin nor Orthodox.

And in all everyone is quoting everyone else.

Hmmm... Sorry guys. You lost me. LOL

Monica child of God 1 · Aug 23, 2005

my brain hurts now

Cappadocian · Aug 23, 2005

xristos.anesti said:
So, are we talking about Latin purgatory? Are we talking about CSL purgatory or are we talking about something else...

If we have three objects of the same name, and they are not the same, then it is a mathematical impossibility for all three to be right and same.

So, what are we talking about?

Knee -V is talking about Latin view of purgatory quoting Ratzinger/Benedict XVI,
Rilian is talking about same (Latin) view of purgatory quoting Knee-V quoting Ratzinger/Benedict XVI and quoting Monica who is quoting CSL - NOT Latin view,
Cappadocian is talking about Orthodox View quoting Rilian who quotes Knee-V quoting Ratzinger/Benedict XVI which is Latin view and Monica who is quoting CSL,
Monica is talking about CSL view of purgatory which is not Latin nor Orthodox.

And in all everyone is quoting everyone else.

Hmmm... Sorry guys. You lost me. LOL

I think there are only two different kinds of Purgatory. The first one, the true one, the original one, is the Orthodox one expressed by Clement, Gregory, etc. When I read C.S. Lewis, this is the one he is describing. This is a Purgatory that, in our right minds we beg to enter into, now and forever -- so long as we are not infinitely virtuous as God is.

The second one is the Latin view, developed in the Middle Ages which is a type of Purgatory that one would hope to skip by paying an indulgence. This is a kind of Purgatory where God renders gratuitous suffering and misery on a Christian.

Joykins · Aug 23, 2005

You know, it really is a credit to C.S. Lewis as a writer and thinker and Christian, that so many groups desire, as it were, to claim him posthumously

Rilian · Aug 23, 2005

xristos.anesti said:
That is fair enough, are there any bishops of the Church that accept it?

Most of the bishops at Florence/Ferrara with their backs against the wall and the Ottomans at the door did agree to it. St. Mark Eugenikos on principle did not, and of course the church as a whole luckily followed his example.

I believe there were two local synods that have specifically denounced the Latin doctrine of Purgatory since that time.

Rilian · Aug 23, 2005

Cappadocian said:
I think there are only two different kinds of Purgatory. The first one, the true one, the original one, is the Orthodox one expressed by Clement, Gregory, etc. When I read C.S. Lewis, this is the one he is describing. This is a Purgatory that, in our right minds we beg to enter into, now and forever -- so long as we are not infinitely virtuous as God is.

The second one is the Latin view, developed in the Middle Ages which is a type of Purgatory that one would hope to skip by paying an indulgence. This is a kind of Purgatory where God renders gratuitous suffering and misery on a Christian.

Yes.

xristos.anesti · Aug 23, 2005

Rilian said:
Most of the bishops at Florence/Ferrara with their backs against the wall and the Ottomans at the door did agree to it. St. Mark Eugenikos on principle did not, and of course the church as a whole luckily followed his example.

I believe there were two local synods that have specifically denounced the Latin doctrine of Purgatory since that time.

Thanks.

I got it now... I was just confused when you said that you accept Latin view. Now it is clear.

Thanks to both of you and Cappadocian and Monica-COG for bearing with me...

I am slow when it comes to thermodynamics. LOL

Rilian · Aug 23, 2005

Joykins said:
You know, it really is a credit to C.S. Lewis as a writer and thinker and Christian, that so many groups desire, as it were, to claim him posthumously

It is interesting how wide his appeal is.

C.S. Lewis -- "An Anonymous Orthodox"?

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