by faith alone?!!!!!

[Alla27]

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone." ~John Calvin
Why does John Calvin contradict the Bible?

 

[Hammster]

He doesn't.

 

[Alla27]

He doesn't.

There is no claim in the Bible that we are justified by faith alone.

 

[Hammster]

There is no claim in the Bible that we are justified by faith alone.

In those exact words? No.

 

[Alla27]

The claim of the Bible: ye see then how that by works a man is justified , and NOT by faith ONLY(alone)
It contradicts claim of John Calvin: by faith alone(only) a man is justified.

Conclusion: Calvin's claim is not only unbiblical it contradicts the Bible.

 

[Hammster]

1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." - Romans 4:1-3

Conclusion: you have taken a verse from James out of context.

 

[Tree of Life]

There is no claim in the Bible that we are justified by faith alone.

If only you had been around in Calvin's day! He wouldn't have said such a dumb thing if only he could have had you as a tutor.

 

[Chesterton]

It was Luther who first inserted "alone".

 

[Alla27]

1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." - Romans 4:1-3

Conclusion: you have taken a verse from James out of context.

Let me see what Paul is saying here. And let me compare to what James is saying.
Paul is talking to people who believe that men can be justified by works ONLY. So, Paul is saying that men can NOT be justified by works. Did Paul say that men can NOT be justified by faith AND works? No, Paul does NOT say this. Paul says that works alone do not save men. I agree with Paul 100%.
James is saying that men can NOT be justified by faith ALONE.

Conclusion: Paul and James are saying that men can be justified by BOTH - faith AND works.

 

[Hammster]

If only you had been around in Calvin's day! He wouldn't have said such a dumb thing if only he could have had you as a tutor.

Let me see what Paul is saying here. And let me compare to what James is saying.
Paul is talking to people who believe that men can be justified by works ONLY. So, Paul is saying that men can NOT be justified by works. Did Paul say that men can NOT be justified by faith AND works? No, Paul does NOT say this. Paul says that works alone do not save men. I agree with Paul 100%.
James is saying that men can NOT be justified by faith ALONE.

Conclusion: Paul and James are saying that men can be justified by BOTH - faith AND works.

So your argument is that there were people who thought they could be made rightous apart from faith, but just by works? And Paul was correcting them?

 

[cloudyday2]

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone." ~John Calvin
Why does John Calvin contradict the Bible?

Calvin seems to be saying that faith alone determines salvation, but faith always produces the fruits of the spirit (including works) so that faith is never alone for long (i.e. faith . Isn't that basically what the book of James says or did I miss something? I know that Luther didn't like the book of James, so maybe it does undermine the "faith alone" position. Just curious if there was something in James that I missed.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It was Luther who first inserted "alone".

I've looked at both the 1522 and 1545 versions of Romans 1:17 from the Lutherbibel, the 1522 reads as follows:

"syntemal drynnen offinbart wirt die gerechtickeyt die fur got giltt, wilche kompt auß glawben ynn glawben, wie denn geschrieben stehet, Der gerechte wirt leben aus seynem glawben."

The 1545 reads as follows:

"Sintemal darinnen offenbaret wird die gerechtigkeit, die fur Gott gilt, welche kompt a aus glauben in glauben, Wie denn geschrieben stehet, Der Gerechte wird seines Glaubens leben."

What makes both different from the modern 1984 Lutherbibel is the lack of the "to be" verb, seynem/seines, thus reading

"Denn darin wird offenbart die Gerechtigkeit, die vor Gott gilt, welche kommt aus Glauben in Glauben; wie geschrieben steht : Der Gerechte wird aus Glauben leben."

Even still, it's rather obvious from any basic reading of the Reformation that the Evangelical Reformers did not put forward the Doctrine of Justification by grace alone through faith alone on account of Luther's rendering of the text of Romans 1:17. That is, even if Luther did insert "alone" into the text--and while I've heard this put forward frequently in the past though have never actually encountered it myself--it is fundamentally non-sequitur in regard to the Doctrine of Justification.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Chesterton]

I've looked at both the 1522 and 1545 versions of Romans 1:17 from the Lutherbibel, the 1522 reads as follows:

"syntemal drynnen offinbart wirt die gerechtickeyt die fur got giltt, wilche kompt auß glawben ynn glawben, wie denn geschrieben stehet, Der gerechte wirt leben aus seynem glawben."

The 1545 reads as follows:

"Sintemal darinnen offenbaret wird die gerechtigkeit, die fur Gott gilt, welche kompt a aus glauben in glauben, Wie denn geschrieben stehet, Der Gerechte wird seines Glaubens leben."

What makes both different from the modern 1984 Lutherbibel is the lack of the "to be" verb, seynem/seines, thus reading

"Denn darin wird offenbart die Gerechtigkeit, die vor Gott gilt, welche kommt aus Glauben in Glauben; wie geschrieben steht : Der Gerechte wird aus Glauben leben."

Are you familiar with Luther's "Open Letter On Translating" where he at length defends the insertion: "However, I was not depending upon or following the nature of the languages alone when I inserted the word solum in Romans 3"?

Even still, it's rather obvious from any basic reading of the Reformation that the Evangelical Reformers did not put forward the Doctrine of Justification by grace alone through faith alone on account of Luther's rendering of the text of Romans 1:17. That is, even if Luther did insert "alone" into the text--and while I've heard this put forward frequently in the past though have never actually encountered it myself--it is fundamentally non-sequitur in regard to the Doctrine of Justification.

-CryptoLutheran

In the same letter, Luther does assert that "faith alone makes one righteous". But whether he or Calvin or a dozen others developed the idea as important I don't care much; I don't really have a dog in that fight.

 

[AV1611VET]

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone." ~John Calvin
Why does John Calvin contradict the Bible?

You need to understand who John Calvin was.

There were men who tried to reform the Catholic church from within, and paid for it with their lives.

Seven men came up with a new idea: they would reform the church from without.

So they left the Catholic church and started their own religions.

Meanwhile, the most hated people on earth, the Anabaptists, thought they were going to get a break, and they gave these guys their support.

But while these seven guys made reforms from without, they still held on to the doctrine of Infant Baptism.

The Anabaptists, who at first thought these men were their friends, paid a dear price at their hands as well.

Now, instead of one church persecuting them, they had eight churches persecuting them.

Those seven men were as follows:

1. John Wycliff: 1320-1384
2. John Huss: 1372-1415
3. Savanarola: 1452-1498
4. Zwingle: 1484-1531
5. Martin Luther: 1483-1546
6. John Calvin: 1509-1564
7. Church of England: Episcopalian

They hunted us down with the same vengeance as the Catholics did, but they also tried to reform (not destroy) the Catholic church.

This period of time was called the Reformation.

Source: The Trail of Blood, by James M. Carroll

 

[Alla27]

So your argument is that there were people who thought they could be made rightous apart from faith, but just by works? And Paul was correcting them?

the point that Paul was making according to this chapter and verses that nobody can be justified by works. the point he was making that faith is very important to be justified. But one thing Paul is not saying. Paul is not saying that by faith alone/only men are justified. Men justified by both - faith and works according to James and James does NOT contradict Paul. Paul also was teaching about importance of works according to the Bible.

 

[Alla27]

According to the Bible the point that James was making was that men can not be justified by faith only.
According to the Bible the point that Paul was making was that men can not be justified by works only.
But both Paul and James and Jesus BTW were teaching that faith and works (obedience) are important and justification.
Paul also said that by grace men justified. 'By faith alone' claim excludes grace.

 

[Alla27]

According to the Bible James and Paul are bringing Abraham as an example. James says that Abraham was justified by works. Why would he say this? May be some believed and some believe today that by faith alone we are saved.
Why did Paul say that Abraham was justified by faith? May be some believed and some believe now that by works only men are justified?
By reading both James and Paul I see that Abraham had BOTH - faith and works and he was justified by BOTH - faith and works, NOT faith only and NOT works only.
Am I wrong?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Are you familiar with Luther's "Open Letter On Translating" where he at length defends the insertion: "However, I was not depending upon or following the nature of the languages alone when I inserted the word solum in Romans 3"?

Then it seems only proper that I retract my previous comments.

In the same letter, Luther does assert that "faith alone makes one righteous". But whether he or Calvin or a dozen others developed the idea as important I don't care much; I don't really have a dog in that fight.

It must always be remembered that when the Reformers speak of faith alone they mean trust upon Christ alone; and that this faith is a supernatural work and gift of God alone. It is not, as some think, "belief alone", as though "by my mental assent to these theological propositions I am saved", it is instead that emboldened trust upon Christ that is the gift of God, outside ourselves, through the Means God has established--that by the preaching of the Gospel and the administering of the Sacraments there is the efficacious working of God upon us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

According to the Bible James and Paul are bringing Abraham as an example. James says that Abraham was justified by works. Why would he say this? May be some believed and some believe today that by faith alone we are saved.
Why did Paul say that Abraham was justified by faith? May be some believed and some believe now that by works only men are justified?
By reading both James and Paul I see that Abraham had BOTH - faith and works and he was justified by BOTH - faith and works, NOT faith only and NOT works only.
Am I wrong?

There are ways to try and reconcile Paul and James, and then there is the opinion that Paul and James really are of a different opinion here. And that James is, perhaps directly and explicitly, contradicting Paul.

Luther's opinion (and it was just his opinion, it does not represent the Lutheran position) was that James was "an epistle of straw" and had "not one bit of Gospel".

I think Paul is rather clear: It is not works which justify, it is God's grace alone through faith in Christ Jesus alone. How we then decide to deal with James becomes secondary. Do we use James to readjust Paul? Do we try and harmonize Paul and James together? Etc.

But it does seem that when James speaks of faith he means belief, to this end he says even the devils believe and tremble. For Paul faith is much more than merely belief.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[AV1611VET]

By reading both James and Paul I see that Abraham had BOTH - faith and works and he was justified by BOTH - faith and works, NOT faith only and NOT works only.
Am I wrong?

Yes.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.