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Bushmaster: Corruption

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MK11

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So why did you propose to carry over my thread, I am not interested to register in your forum now unless I find a necessity to do so, may be I will carry over the thread but not now, this is what I said in the beginning, but since you proposed that you do so , I depended on that, but I found you go back and say that I told you from the baginning to go and carry over the thread there, if you don't feel that you are at your word, don't say it. If you haven't said your last word, the responsibility would have been on me to go there, but I didn't give a word and retreat from it.

Quote a miracle from the Quran... Christ's miracles are in the bible.
A very irrelevant question, as if you are conversating with one of those who call themselves quranics. I believe that Quran and Sunna are both sources of legislation, and Sunna is concerned with life of the Prophet (Peace be upon him), and that's why most miracles are there, while this is not the job of the Quran to tell the Prophet's miracles although it is miraculous in itself, but there are still verses which talk about miracles of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) as defeating the Persians by Romans and sending angels to Muslim army within Badr.

Where is the Injeel, (the only "greek" turned into arabic word)?
I am not interested to know, what I already need to know is that the Quran is God's Word and that your Gospels have many corruptions although they may contain some truth. But even if I know where the Injeel is, I am not ordered to follow it because the Quran already abrogates it.
 
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Islam_mulia

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I really don't see what this achieves. If the bible is a bunch of fairy tales that automatically kills any chance of me considering the quran because it was brought 600 years later by an illiterate who didn't show any signs of being a prophet of God.
Yet you believe the NT came centuries after the OT and it is worthwhile for guidance and inspiration???

What exactly are we trying to achieve here? The quran doesn't even claim that the bible is corrupt, otherwise muslims wouldn't claim to believe in the prior revealed books.
The bible is not equal to the taurat plus injil, according to the Quran. To be blunt, the bible is NOT from God.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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Don't misrepresent what I said, I am not reading what you are feeling or thinking. You didn't properly respond to my original proposal. Sometimes these kinds of requests are more than enough for a necessity to humble you into an attitude that you are reminded you do not set ground rules for arguments. My original intent as I explained was for you to carry over your thread however I suggested I could do it which would require you to register anyway for a response. Because I explained to you that I will be taking a break from CF. Yet, you are still creating polemics over simple stuff.



I see you don't have an answer, ok. Just say Quran doesn't mention prophet's miracles, but Quran is the miracle itself... Now that we came to the point that Scriptures and Tradition are both valid sources, as you verbatim applied it to your beliefs, I can go from there later on...



This is another good logical point that I will use later to shoot down your arguments. As usual, there is corruption but there is no Injeel...
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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Yet you believe the NT came centuries after the OT and it is worthwhile for guidance and inspiration???

Speaking of the terms of consistency and fulfilling prophecies...

The bible is not equal to the taurat plus injil, according to the Quran.

If not, where is the original combo? If Quran claims such scriptures, muslims should have been working hard for centuries to reveal the origins of what we don't have today.

To be blunt, the bible is NOT from God.
Said the man who claimed to have seen an angel in a cave by himself... Joseph Smith Senior...
 
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yaqovzadeek

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concerning the issue of Bible corruption there are a few things that need to be addressed since this issue is a very tasty one and one must enjoy the facts that come out of this.First of all Many christians when the y refer to the Quran as praise the the torah and the Injeel, they claim that muslims cannot then declare that the Bible has been Tampered with since the Quran mentions GOD sent down those Books. Did yuo lot get my point here.GOD did send down those books mentioned in the Quran but in no way did he send down Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and the epistles.Jesus had his Gospel that God gave to Him, but he never took the Gospels accoirding to matthew Mark Luke and John under his arm with the Epistles in hand while he was preach.They are a totally different ball game and those who wanted to be clever tampered even with that which was not the word of GOD.They thought that by changing Matthew, Mark Luke and John they would be tampering with the word of GOD.
Even if they had the original manuscripts(as they seem to claim they do) of these Gospels they are not the book God sent down with Jesus. Even then the manuscripts they have are copies of copies of copies and all this could be proven and has been several times.
There are authentic books from Christain scholars themselves that expalin Bible tampering, deleteing, addition and son on.We will take a look at these later.
Peace
yaqovzadeek
aka James the Just
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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As it is our Holy week of Resurrection this week, I have decided to make peace... You are invited to the the forum I linked earlier.
 
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Islam_mulia

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Speaking of the terms of consistency and fulfilling prophecies...
So you agree with me that a book that comes later need not be invalid? Elijah's idea sucks.

If not, where is the original combo? If Quran claims such scriptures, muslims should have been working hard for centuries to reveal the origins of what we don't have today.
The essence of what was thought through the injil and taurat is already in the Quran. The main message of the older scriptures is to believe in the One God, that does cry for being forsaken by men.

Said the man who claimed to have seen an angel in a cave by himself... Joseph Smith Senior...
The same could be said of Prophet Zachariah, Daniel and even Mary, the mother of Jesus. At least they know it was an angel, not some apparation/vision/devil? that visited a man on the road to Damascus.
 
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MK11

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To say that I will not enter that forum now, doesn't mean that I am afraid of or a sort of that, and I said that I may do that later, and I would register if I found a response, but I actually don't know why you came back and rejected your proposal.
BTW, I replied in the morning and went to sleep, then I woke up and still found you online, then I went to breakfast and came back and again found you online, you kept chatting with me and it seems that you browsed my site for a while, which seems to me that you had a lot of time today, couldn't you have used in answering my original argument?

First of all, I think I said that the Quran told some miracles of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) in my 2 last statements. Second, I didn't object that you have another source of legislation, the sola scriptura argument is a problem between you and the Protestants I have nothing to do with it, unless it contradicts the Bible.

This is another good logical point that I will use later to shoot down your arguments. As usual, there is corruption but there is no Injeel...
I didn't say that there is no Injeel, all what I said is that I have nothing to do with its place, besides I already pointed out that it could be the case that some true scripts (from the Injil) could be present in the Bible but that doesn't mean that the Bible also contains false scripts.
 
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elijah115

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Yet you believe the NT came centuries after the OT and it is worthwhile for guidance and inspiration???


The bible is not equal to the taurat plus injil, according to the Quran. To be blunt, the bible is NOT from God.
Muhammad wasn't prophecied in the bible and he didn't heal the sick, raise the dead, walk on water, nor was he like Moses. The proof is in the pudding. The NT came centuries later but all throughout it, the OT is directly quoted. The Quran doesn't quote anything that can be found in the bible. It doesn't even get basic things like Mary being from the tribe of Judah right. It even denies that Jesus died, which to me is a straight forward proof that it is a fraud. I just don't see where this is going. Do you honestly think that if I did finally come to the conclusion that the bible is corrupt I am going to be a person who wasn't holy, who didn't perform any miracles, who didn't have any historical support for his story, who didn't provide proof that jewish scriptures exist to support his version of the jewish history, etc I could go on, and contradicts Jesus' direct disciples?
 
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Islam_mulia

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elijah115

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yaqovzadeek

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I mentioned early that bible corruption was a very interesting topic that I like to get my teeth in. I had a busy day so I had to cut it sort.I had mentioned a Book written by a praiseworthy Christian scholar who rather than had an axe to grind was actually defending Christianity.His name was John William Burgon and I was reading one of his books lately.Here is part of the Bio of John Burgon:
Defense of the Scriptures. Over a hundred years ago there was a warrior and fighter for the Scriptures. His name was John William Burgon. This champion was from a different time and century from you and me; nevertheless, he was a staunch defender of Bibliology. As you know, this discipline is the bedrock of all theology. [Bibliology refers to the doctrine of the Bible.]
It is interesting to note that Burgon not only pointed out what the Word of God said, but also defended the Word of God against all errors within his own church.

Lack of Promotion. John William Burgon was a battler. He applied what he knew, and it cost him something. He did not get promoted. He was not on the English Revised Version committee of 1881. He was not made a professor, canon, or Bishop of his church. Neither was he made the head of a college. Why? Because he "rocked too many boats"! He loved the Book!
So we see he was a staunch defender of the Bible although he did not make it big.His book Corruptions talks about the Corruption of the Bible and I don't need to misquote as his words are clear.he calls a spade a spade where he needs to.
He says about bible corruptionon page 70 of his book
"The Causes of the Corruption of the Traditional Text of the Holy Gospels"
CHAPTER VII.
CAUSES OF CORRUPTION CHIEFLY INTENTIONAL.
I. HARMONISTIC INFLUENCE.

[IT must not be imagined that all the causes of the depravation of the text of Holy Scripture
were instinctive, and that mistakes arose solely because scribes were overcome by personal infirmity, or were unconsciously the victims of surrounding circumstances. There was often more design and method in their error. They, or those who directed them, wished sometimes to correct and improve the copy or copies before them. And indeed occasionally they desired to make the Holy Scriptures witness to their own peculiar belief. Or they had their ideas of taste, and did not scruple to alter passages to suit what they fancied was their enlightened judgement.

It cannot be clearer than that now can it? So as I said in my earlier post the scribes delibeartely changeed the texts.He carries on with some examples of what ismentioned above,a bit long to post here.But he explains how words were erased.
The next chapter he writes is:CHAPTER VIII.
CAUSES OF CORRUPTION CHIEFLY INTENTIONAL.
II. ASSIMILATION.

So again we see that there were the Intentional Corruptions of the bible.
THERE results inevitably from the fourfold structure of the Gospel,.—from the very fact that the story of Redemption is set forth in four narratives, three of which often ran parallel,—this practical inconvenience: namely, that sometimes the expressions of one Evangelist get improperly transferred to another. This is a large and important subject which calls for great attention, and
requires to be separately handled. The phenomena alluded to, which are similar to some of those which have been treated in the last chapter, may be comprised under the special head of Assimilation.

and on this he comments that in order to harmonise the text between the three texts were tampered with,It will I think promote clearness in the ensuing discussion if we determine to consider separately those instances of Assimilation which may rather be regarded as deliberate attempts to reconcile one Gospel with another: indications of a fixed determination to establish harmony between place and place. I am saying that between ordinary cases of Assimilation such as occur in every page, and extraordinary instances where per fas et nefas an enforced Harmony has been established,—which abound indeed, but are by no means common,—I am disposed to draw a line.
further he says:
CHAPTER X.
CAUSES OF CORRUPTION CHIEFLY INTENTIONAL.
IV. OMISSION.
[WE have now to consider the largest of all classes of corrupt variations from the genuine text257,—the omission of words and clauses and sentences,—a truly fertile province of inquiry.
Omissions are much in favour with a particular school of critics; though a habit of admitting them whether in ancient or modern times cannot but be symptomatic of a tendency to scepticism.]
§ 1.
Omissions are often treated as ‘Various Readings.’ Yet only by an Hibernian licence can words
omitted be so reckoned: for in truth the very essence of the matter is that on such occasions nothing
is read. It is to the case of words omitted however that this chapter is to be exclusively devoted.
And it will be borne in mind that I speak now of those words alone where the words are observed
to exist in ninety-nine MSS. out of a hundred, so to speak;—being away only from that hundredth
copy.


There is more and much much more.I mean you have the
Chapter XI. Causes of Corruption Chiefly Intentional. VI. Substitution.. .

Chapter XI. (continued). Causes of Corruption Chiefly Intentional. VII.
Addition.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Chapter XII. Causes of Corruption Chiefly Intentional. VIII. Glosses..

Chapter XIII. Causes of Corruption Chiefly Intentional. IX. Corruption by
Heretics.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Chapter XIV. Causes of Corruption Chiefly Intentional. X. Corruption by
the Orthodox.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

So how can any Christian in his right mind now claim that the bible is the undisputed , unadulterated word of GOD.This is just the tip of the iceberg I di not go into Detail. The book is there go to ccel.org and read it for yourself.And it was not written by a muslim nor a heretic but a revered Christian writer who defended the Bible.
Peace
Yaqovzadeek
aka James the Just​
 
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Erfan777

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Can you explain it in your own word about, in what ways John William thinks that the Word of God is altered? It would be easier for me than to read the whole lot of it, and it doesn't explain very well to me.
 
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Islam_mulia

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HumbleSiPilot77

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Can you explain it in your own word about, in what ways John William thinks that the Word of God is altered? It would be easier for me than to read the whole lot of it, and it doesn't explain very well to me.

Erfan, common sense, how is a revered Christian scholar who defends the bible will also attack it? Look he even defends the controversial ending verses of Gospel of Mark. Yaqov is not giving you the full context. Though, I have not heard about this guy before. I am more into Christian giants like Ignatius, Augustine, John of Damascus, Polycarp, of whom church still cherishes their memory thousands years after... CS Lewis is another example. John W. Burgon seems to be a mainline Christian also, but he is radical about King James version and a supporter of Textus Receptus and defends these mss's accuracy. What he attacks is, not the bible but the Westcott and Hort text which NIV is based on. I agree with him on most points. I use KJV too. Did you also know that there is a society that follows John W. Burgon's memory and arguments, it is called DeanBurgon society, and here is their opening statement;

The Authorized King James Bible has been, and continues to be, the God honored, most accurate, and best English translation of the inspired, inerrant, infallible, and preserved original language words of God.


Could a society in the memory of John Burgon, who allegedly thought Scriptures were corrupted, say " inspired, inerrant, infallible, and preserved original language words of God."??

Don't listen to him, he proved himself many times already, do your own research...

I thought the bible says the true followers of Christ can do fantastic things, even Superman may look weak...

Don't be stupid. You are mocking Christ!

yes the bible says Christians can move mountains. You cant, and I cannot say you are a true follower of Christ.
Christ actually talks about how little faith we have. He uses a visible symbol representing an abstract idea. Way to go showing your true colors again.

You are darn right the OT NEVER prophecised Jesus.
Where does Elijah say this? And show me how OT doesn't prophesy Christ.

Oh, you can also discuss the prophecies of Muhammad (pbuh) if you like.
Yea, start with showing me some miracles and prophecies of him from the Quran...


Can you prove to me Imran was not the father of Mary?
Mary's parents were Sts. Joachim and Anna, refer to Church documents.

It is a historical fact that NO documents have been found, which have been interpolated, that says Jesus was crucified. Yes, tell us why you think it is a historical fact that Jesus died.
You are right, God puts the right words in your mouth, you essentially are saying here that NO documents that were interpolated have been found. Just like Caiaphas, you unintentionally speak the truth for once. Gospels are your documents, refute them first. No, you rather parrot your fantasies, that brings you closer to confidence in your faith which still can't explain 4:157.
 
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Secundulus

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And show me how OT donesn't prophesy Christ.
God is even recorded in the OT as having physically appeared to the Jews several times. But the Quran denies this is possible.

I guess Muhammed should have gotten better Biblical scholars to advise him when he was dictating the Quran. Then he wouldn't have contradicted it in so many ways leaving his followers in a quandary of confusion in their arguments.
 
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Islam_mulia

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Don't be stupid. You are mocking Christ!

Christ actually talks about how little faith we have. He uses a visible symbol representing an abstract idea. Way to go showing your true colors again.
I dont know Bushmaster. Christians have a funny way of interpreting the bible.

After all, you can ask to be a millionaire tomorrow, and you will be. In fact, everyone who asks, receives!


7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8)

Where does Elijah say this? And show me how OT donesn't prophesy Christ.
How about the story of Immanuel?... for a start.

Yea, start with showing me some miracles and prophecies of him from the Quran...
It is a miracle from God. Muhammad (pbuh) was only a man, just like Jesus, the son of Mary.

Mary's parents were Sts. Joachim and Anna, refer to Church documents.
You mean like what is written here:

Sts. Joachim and Anne
Parents of Our Lady



Ok. Can you pls provide me with a guideline that I can follow to prove that the bible is not historical? Give me your parameters, your criteria, and we can discuss further. Otherwise, I point to you one example of the non-historicity of the bible, you will say I am off-mark. Can we agree?
 
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Adeeb

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such anthropomorphism is clear indication to me of human authorship.

We cannot comprehend God, whatever we can think of, that is not God.
“There is nothing like Him, but He is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.” (Quran 42:11)
“There is nothing comparable to Him.” (Quran 112:4)
 
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