Bush week.

[Dave-W]

Because you're human, and defending a belief that gives you peace about your mortality.

Did you read the article?

And have you been with me my entire life to say what I have or have not experienced?

 

[primaryE]

Did you read the article?

And have you been with me my entire life to say what I have or have not experienced?

That's all bullwack, we're all the F'n same head cases.

 

[Dave-W]

That's all bullwack, we're all the F'n same head cases.

Nice. Good scientific method there.

Name calling and obscenity will get you exactly nowhere.

 

[primaryE]

Nice. Good scientific method there.

Name calling and obscenity will get you exactly nowhere.

Don't be a douche.

 

[Dave-W]

Don't be a douche.

LOL!!

 

[Dave-W]

When I first met my friend Steve, he was a freshman in college and an anti-theist. When he found out I was a believer, he tried to argue me out of my faith. That evening I ended up casting 3 demons out of him and be he became a strong believer and has preached the gospel on 3 continents (North America, Europe and Asia)

I suppose you would call him a douche, bullwack and liar as well.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Muslims arn't bothered about witnessing, they are commanded to conquer and force unbelievers to believe.

Actually, that is false.

What is the reason for atheists who seek to doaway with peoples belief?

Personally, I respect everyone's right to believe whatever nonsense they see fit - as long as it doesn't involve any harmful (in the broadest sense) consequences on others.

But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss our beliefs and debate about them. I think it's fun to exchange ideas and discuss things. Even if it gets heated sometimes. Actually, that's when the most fun begin, imo

Discussion is good, as long as there is mutual respect.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You mean - no evidence that you would accept as valid.

I have heard the screams of those dying saying they are descending into flames. I have also been face to face with someone demonized several times.

Uhu.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

But I would question you, on what basis do you "know" that I said would be lying? (which I am NOT btw)

I wouldn't say that you are lying. Lying is the practice of making statements that you KNOW are wrong. I think you are sincere and that you really believe those things.

But I think you are mistaken and that your beliefs are false.
And the basis for that is the exact same basis that you use to consider the same about similar (very sincere) statements concerning other religions, appearances of Elvis, alien abductions, etc.

Did you happen to read the article on CNN last weekend about the clinical psychologist who is now the "go-to guy" for Catholic exorcists?

Yes. Did you read the follow-up articles about what his peers think of him?

I suppose you think they are all lying too.

Exorcists are special cases...I file them in the same category as handreaders, tarot readers, horoscope readers, fortune tellers, etc.

Yes, some / a lot of them really believe that they have "special powers" or "special knowledge" or whatever.

However, it's also a proven fact that a lot of them are con-man who literally, knowingly, purposefully are scamming people.

So in the case of this "exorcists"...
Imo, either he's indeed lying, or he's just as mistaken as the rest of them in the same way.

Surely you are aware that large groups of people are perfectly capable of having the same wrong beliefs AND interpret their experiences in context of those beliefs, and then call those experiences "evidence".

 

[Dave-W]

Tailgate, Primary, and the other non believers in the Christian faith:

Paul told us in 1 Corinthians that the proclamation of the Gospel should be along these lines:

1 Cor 2.1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, 4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.​

You all need to see first hand the "power of God." And that is my prayer for you all.

 

[Dave-W]

Yes. Did you read the follow-up articles about what his peers think of him?

Of course. And they have not seen the things he saw; nor do they share his Christian world view. Of course they are not going to be supportive. World view issues are difficult to change. It often takes something as radical as seeing a manifesting demon or a miraculous healing or being told intimate details of your life by a complete stranger to shake that up.

 

[Tolworth John]

Actually, that is false.

Actually it is true.
Mohamed was expelled from Mecca and went to Medina, where he waged war against Mecca untill he conquered it. He then went on to conquer all of saudia arabia, his followers went on to conquer the middle east, large parts of the far east, across north africa and almost into France. This was all a holy war.
Muslims seek to copy the perfect man who they claim was mohamed. He fourght to spread islam.

 

[Noxot]

Is it morally ethical for people of religious persuasions to convince others to accept their beliefs. What right do the religious have, to do this? Don't just say "It's the spirit that convinces people" Because then God wouldn't need you. Then there's the freewill argument, that God can't affect a person's will, but then you can.

Yes it's all very confusing.

everyone is to some measure coerced by good and evil in the world until they become fully mature and have a life of their own. coercion can never lead to a higher and to a better order of reality in the world but humans are such that until they can truly be themselves they should have good influences upon them that will nourish the growth and development of their spirit/personality.

swedenborg makes a different in the inner and outer wills of a person. the outer will is subject to corruption and can be manipulated and controlled and it often is but the inner will is the real person and this will can't be corrupted and will be what it freely picks. when we die we are stripped of our outer will and so convincing people of stuff that they were not really convinced by is futile if you indeed seek for their inner will to truly be good.

evil also has an influence of teaching people even though God loathes for that to exist but since people have freedom it can and often does exist and so God has to in his grace order that in a way that will somehow benefit someone. evil is not very useful but to reject it is useful i.e. to see how it is in the world and then come to a conclusion that you ought not be that way since it is ultimately not good.

so everyone in the world is in a struggle to work out what is good and what is evil and they all tend to be the mixture that they are and thus do unto others as they themselves are. those who really care about goodness will be working to rid themselves of evil and to live in goodness as much as possible.

chiefly we are to "convince" others by the way we ourselves are and dialogue is always nice. therefore the chief way to "convince" is by both love and wisdom. if someone likes some of what someone else says then they can freely adopt it. I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[Tolworth John]

Yes, if that type of belief is proven to harm that person and others. Religious folks don't use evidence when it comes down to convincing other's of their beliefs.

At the risk of being petty, there is medical evidence that being religious is better for peoples physical and mental health. So on that ground atheism should carry a health warning

As for evidence there is often very little evidence offered to support belief in atheism.

As I said there is a risk of being petty in this debate.

May I ask on what grounds do use to judge a religion?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Christianity is a religion and a lifestyle and way of thinking that would solve most of the world's problems.

 

[bhsmte]

Is it morally ethical for people of religious persuasions to convince others to accept their beliefs. What right do the religious have, to do this? Don't just say "It's the spirit that convinces people" Because then God wouldn't need you. Then there's the freewill argument, that God can't affect a person's will, but then you can.

Yes it's all very confusing.

Lot of psychology in play here. IMO, when certain folks believe in certain things without any objective evidence to support it and the belief is really important to their personal psyche, it is much more likely they will do one or both of the following:

-try to get others to follow along with them, because it comforts them.
-demonize those who disagree with them, as a defense mechanism to protect their belief

 

[Noxot]

Lot of psychology in play here. IMO, when certain folks believe in certain things without any objective evidence to support it and the belief is really important to their personal psyche, it is much more likely they will do one or both of the following:

-try to get others to follow along with them, because it comforts them.
-demonize those who disagree with them, as a defense mechanism to protect their belief

I was wondering if you could discern any patterns in atheist that are like this?

 

[possibletarian]

I was wondering if you could discern any patterns in atheist that are like this?

Which atheists ? and which beliefs ?

 

[bhsmte]

I was wondering if you could discern any patterns in atheist that are like this?

Apples and oranges.

This is why, lack of belief, does not require one to justify evidence for a lack of belief. With theist beliefs, one must reconcile the belief in their own head, or deal with a whole lot of cognitive dissonance, which is not a lot of fun.

 

[Noxot]

I wish I could have just wrote a few lines and stated everything simply but I don't know how to sum this up so fast.

you don't have to be religious to be an ideologe. I don't think believing objective evidence to be the highest ideal of truth saves some atheist from falling into the same errors that some religious fall into. maybe most atheist are a kind of empiricist. I say empiricist as opposed to the wider category of experiences a human is capable of having and also as opposed to pure reason or logic.

honestly I was hoping for a bit of self-criticism from atheist instead of the whole "nah, we don't got those problems. only other tribes do." response. now I have to fumble around with atheist since they won't criticize themselves. I find it much easier to criticize the religious.

yeah I think to some degree it is apples and oranges. I do think that atheist as a group are not generally as strongly united together due to atheism being a simple thing of "no belief in a god" as the defining term even though this already seems to imply certain possible qualities.

I don't think atheist are immune to human problems since the problems you described are to some degree biological programming. it's hard to not be controlled in some measure by systems that have existed for millions and millions of years. I think that almost all humans are biased towards what they think is true because from a darwinian perspective knowing and living in what is true can mean evolutionary success.

since you hold different beliefs than the religious you will tend to express those problems in different ways. your demonizing might be more subtle due to the beliefs not being as offensive i.e. burning forever in hell is pretty demonizing compared to scoffing at people who do not have the same kinds of philosophical mindsets that the typical atheist has.

I think that one advantage that atheist have is that it's often based in modern, rich first world countries and so you will tend to not be as barbaric as say a muslim that lives in a crazier part of the world. this applies to the religious living in modern rich first world countries as well.

since atheist don't believe in the religious domain then I guess I would have to consider what atheist in general hold up irrationally as a god over humans and the biggest elephant in the room is government/politics.

I know I can't expect people to watch videos that I link but this guy explains why government is a religion.

p.s. "duty" is part of a personality trait that some have more and some have less of. duty is a biological survival mechanism. I guess God is a powerful agitator for duty but if atheist feel threatened then that is all they need because for many a fear of pain or punishment and an authoritarian sense of what is good is the root of this overzealous sense of duty.