Bush for Protestants!

[Markh]

I supported Bush and I prayed for his victory- but I think as Catholics we all should remember- We used Bush for his pro-life stance, we don't actually agree with him on anything else!

 

[Benedicta00]

I supported Bush and I prayed for his victory- but I think as Catholics we all should remember- We used Bush for his pro-life stance, we don't actually agree with him on anything else!

I agree with him on a great number of things.

 

[Dream]

I agree with him on a great number of things.

Same here.

Are you saying that the Catholic Church does not support anything else about Bush? I think that would be extremely naive to think that.

 

[PeterPaul]

American Catholics do not understand how one would expect a party representing Catholic parties to be like-

being a European, where we have a tradition of Catholic social treaching based parties, I can point to how far Bush is from being anything like we in Europe would consider Catholic.

The individualism of America has seaped into the mindsets of the American Catholics clouding their judgements as what policies are "Catholic".

Bush's party is protestant through and through. The Democrats are the natural home for Catholics. Abortion is the issue which deviates Catholics away from this- but the fact of the matter is, and all non-american Catholic pundits will agree the Republican party is by no means at all even nearly a Catholic party.

I get shudders down my spine at the thought of someone considering it a Christian party.

I personally, if I was American would not just want Kerry excommunicated, but Jeb Bush as he has supported the death penalty outside of the tiny exceptions on which it is accepted in Catholic social teaching.

Mark, as a fellow European, and as someone who still disagrees with you on certain economical issues, I have to agree with you. This system does not face human realities, but rather needs to. I admit, after reading the encyclicals that I was wrong on an unbridled economy.

 

[ufonium2]

I hope I don't offend those of you who are European and are devout Christians by saying this, but based on the state of Christianity in Europe today I'm really not worried about what Europeans consider to be Catholic (or any kind of Christian, for that matter) values.

More people go to church every Sunday in China than in Western Europe, and the Chinese have to risk their lives to do it. Europe will be predominantly Muslim in our lifetime, because the Christian population (which includes a lot of Catholics) isn't even reproducing enough to sustain population. There are European countries where over 50% of children are born out of wedlock, and you've got an abortion boat floating around to subvert the laws of the few remaining countries who actually support the Catholic position on family.

So, I'm thinking maybe the European idea of Catholicism needs a little tweaking at this point, and I definitely don't think Europe is pious enough to be passing judgement on Catholics in the rest of the world.

 

[Dream]

American Catholics do not understand how one would expect a party representing Catholic parties to be like-

being a European, where we have a tradition of Catholic social treaching based parties, I can point to how far Bush is from being anything like we in Europe would consider Catholic.

The individualism of America has seaped into the mindsets of the American Catholics clouding their judgements as what policies are "Catholic".

Bush's party is protestant through and through. The Democrats are the natural home for Catholics. Abortion is the issue which deviates Catholics away from this- but the fact of the matter is, and all non-american Catholic pundits will agree the Republican party is by no means at all even nearly a Catholic party.

I get shudders down my spine at the thought of someone considering it a Christian party.

I personally, if I was American would not just want Kerry excommunicated, but Jeb Bush as he has supported the death penalty outside of the tiny exceptions on which it is accepted in Catholic social teaching.

Markh, I'm sure that there are plenty of people that would like debate about politics. But when you don't ever give any specific examples, it makes it rather difficult to understand what you are talking about. You have just repeatedly said that Bush is not who Catholics should vote for. I'm not sure if you are just parroting back what others have said or if you truly have a basis for your claims (you seemed to have ignored the responses to your previous post).

So please explain what you mean by all these policies you disprove of. What enviromental issues? Are you talking about ANWAR? What economic policies? What gun policies? Please give us the basis for all your claims.

 

[Benedicta00]

I think Mark has bought into the European media’s hatred for Bush.

Mark, all I can tell you is what you hear over there is not the reality of what is taking place over here. You are getting a very bias, slanted, anti Bush side of the story with nothing much else to balance that view out.

 

[Dream]

I think Mark has bought into the European media’s hatred for Bush.

Mark, all I can tell you is what you hear over there is not the reality of what is taking place over here. You are getting a very bias, slanted, anti Bush side of the story with nothing much else to balance that view out.

Yes, I think you should consider this.

 

[Benedicta00]

I hope I don't offend those of you who are European and are devout Christians by saying this, but based on the state of Christianity in Europe today I'm really not worried about what Europeans consider to be Catholic (or any kind of Christian, for that matter) values.

More people go to church every Sunday in China than in Western Europe, and the Chinese have to risk their lives to do it. Europe will be predominantly Muslim in our lifetime, because the Christian population (which includes a lot of Catholics) isn't even reproducing enough to sustain population. There are European countries where over 50% of children are born out of wedlock, and you've got an abortion boat floating around to subvert the laws of the few remaining countries who actually support the Catholic position on family.

So, I'm thinking maybe the European idea of Catholicism needs a little tweaking at this point, and I definitely don't think Europe is pious enough to be passing judgement on Catholics in the rest of the world.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ufonium2 again.
...

 

[PeterPaul]

I hope I don't offend those of you who are European and are devout Christians by saying this, but based on the state of Christianity in Europe today I'm really not worried about what Europeans consider to be Catholic (or any kind of Christian, for that matter) values.

More people go to church every Sunday in China than in Western Europe, and the Chinese have to risk their lives to do it. Europe will be predominantly Muslim in our lifetime, because the Christian population (which includes a lot of Catholics) isn't even reproducing enough to sustain population. There are European countries where over 50% of children are born out of wedlock, and you've got an abortion boat floating around to subvert the laws of the few remaining countries who actually support the Catholic position on family.

So, I'm thinking maybe the European idea of Catholicism needs a little tweaking at this point, and I definitely don't think Europe is pious enough to be passing judgement on Catholics in the rest of the world.

Hi Unfonium! How are you?

I don't think Mark meant that Europe as a secular continent and as a Union would or could represent Catholicism better than America. I believe he was referring to our history and the application of social doctrine, something which America has never seen. Unless of course, we are willing to say that Catholicism played a part in the decline of Europe, and not blame it on the secular humanist order of the day or the Reformation.

What Mark describes is a lack of knowledge on the part of Catholics in America (and Europe and OBOBers) who don't or haven't even read the encyclicals which do propose and have been a part of social doctrine, both tried, applied and true. To suggest that the removal of the guilds was the fault of Catholicism, or that it was also guilty of England going astray is nonsense. Should we then suggest that Spain's new gay marriage act was a failure of Catholicism or a triumph of sin?

So are we saying European Catholics have a poor system or theory of values? If that were the case both American and European would be indicted. After all, we do not make policy in today's climate (I wish we did), and we know the moral decay of both continents. America however, has not had its Chesterton or Belloc to attack Capitalism as well as Socialism. Thankfully, these works are sought and reprinted in both parts of the Atlantic.

One of the things Mark may overlook however, is that individualistic social doctrine as well as economies do not originate in the States, but in Reformation nations in Europe. In fact, Mises of the Austrian school of economics deliberately wanted to wrench the market away from the Church (I have documentation if any libertarians want it). It was probably Marx that steered N. Europe from individualism, but of course delved into collectivism. The popes, both after the French Revolution and during/after the time of Marx watched carefully and condemned succinctly.

However, the thought that the market was neutral, that it should be mechanical did arrive in America. The idea that the strong ruled and the weak were to fend for themselves continues to be unabated lest one be called a communist.

I think many Catholics are unaware of social doctrine and in fact many times argue against it without realising it. Self ownership has taken a step back to employment, and liquid assets more desirable to property. It was not this but the distributist vision, that was more in line with the popes' historical thought than either capitalism or socialism.

No offence taken ufonium. Discussion is healthy.

 

[PeterPaul]

I think Mark has bought into the European media’s hatred for Bush.

Mark, all I can tell you is what you hear over there is not the reality of what is taking place over here. You are getting a very bias, slanted, anti Bush side of the story with nothing much else to balance that view out.

Shelb, as a European living in America I can tell you it goes both ways. In America I have to defend Europe. In Europe I have to defend America. Both have misconceptions about the other. Its as complex as Protestantism vs. Catholicism. Both have prejudices.

 

[Wild_Fan4Christ]

Hope that caught your attention!

So would you be upset about this? If you had campaigned and helped out this group as much as I have and then one of the leaders of the group said this to the group? Would you talk to him about it? What would you say? ("A bunch of think P. Bush is going to convert!!!")

AAAAHEM, hello people. This is the 4th page and the OP still has not been answered because you were debating other things that were not even asked.

princess_ballet - If it were me I would talk to the leader about this. All that hard work you put in and you find out in the end about this stuff. Tell him how you feel.

Ok, on to this

Bush is certainly not a Christian president in my opinion and he would have to change an awful lot of views to ever become a Catholic.

Although he may not be the best Christian president, he is much better than the alternative. One thing you are forgetting, the Supreme court and the "ACTIVIST" judges decide things. WE elected Bush because he supports judges who have a high moral standard and still believe in God unlike Kerry and company.

a) the pope condemned the war in Iraq- and it certainly is not a just war, it isn't even in self defence!

My my, how people have forgot about the events that took place on 9/11/01. It may not be a just war if you follow the claims of WMD, and the link to al quaida. Both of which are still debatable and only time can tell if those are true or not. But the war if you look at it in a broader sense, Bush what he is doing is something no other President had the guts to do. The middle east is a haven for terrorists. When are these people going to get that through their head. The terrorists brought the war to us.

b) his policies towards the environment are a disgrace

Oh really? Without facts or other information this claim is null and void. How many of these environmentalists actually go out into nature and the environment. The majority of Conservatives are out in the environment. And guess what, they also pour in tons and tons of money, time, and research back into that environment they love. That money is used for conservation programs and other things.

c) his love of the death penalty is terrible

Again, a blanket statement that is false. I am sure Bush "loves" to see people on death row. In most cases these are justified and are also biblically correct. Not sure if you heard of Dru Sjodin but you may have since it made world news over the past year. But she was the 22 year old University of North Dakota (my alma mater) student who was abducted, raped, and killed by Alfonso Rodriguez, a repeat sex offender. It has been one year since this happened. Her body was found in a ditch in northern MN and was finally laid to rest a few months ago. Mr. Rodriguez pleaded not guilty when all the evidence they found stacks against him. They found blood, a knife, and her shoe in his car...go figure. He will more than likely face the death penalty for his crime. What do you think about this case?

d) his encouragement of contraceptives (he certainly isn't anywhere near 50% of funding going to abstinence)

What is the Liberal position on contraceptives?
- The CONSERVATIVE moral position emphasizes procreation as the “reason” for sexuality, regards it largely as a “necessary evil.”

- The LIBERAL moral position emphasizes pleasure, freedom, and choice in sexuality.

- The MODERATE moral position emphasizes love, procreation, and pleasure.

The word "moral" and "Liberal" should not be used in the same sentence. What do you say about the Clinton - Monica sex scandal. You can't tell me that Democrat candidates are more in line to Catholic teaching. Think about Roe v. Wade, Contraceptives, Gay marriage, etc... Put that together with the perversion of our society and you just might see where Conservative values and morals voted Bush in.

e) and then there are his economics- which are in opposition to Catholic social teaching

Excuse me, MR. Clinton started the recession. Remember, this happened BEFORE 9/11 which only made the economy WORSE. And the world has the audacity to blame Bush

f) and then there are his policies on guns

What policies? It is the person NOT the gun who kills. I suppose Mr. Rodriguez up in c.) is not at fault because the knife killed her. Give me a break. What do you say about the Hmong who killed 6 hunters last month in Wisconsin. The gun did NOT do it, this sick man killed them. BTW, I own guns and hunt does that make me a bad person. Think about all of the avid hunters who own guns who throw millions into the economy, and programs for GUN SAFETY of all things. And then we have democrats come in and undermine the ability of those programs.

g) and his moral policies aren't even good enough- he still wants abortion in cases of rape, and he is doing stem cell research on embryos!

What do you have to say about Kerry who was PRO-CHOICE which is still abortion and murder? At least with Bush we have a better chance of getting those supreme court judges in who are pro-life...something the LIBERALS are very afraid of because it will mean no Gay Marriages, and making abortions illegal. What about the 11 states who voted NO to the liberal candiates who wanted to legalize gay marriages?

let us remember apart from the crucial moral issues where Bush is closer to Catholicism, the democrats still represent the Catholic interests in every other policy matter.

I have no comment for this false statement.

that is my position on Bush anyway- if it weren't for the moral policies (which are the most important) I would be ashamed of the Catholics who voted for him over the democrats.

You need to check your facts before you make comments like this.

I think Mark has bought into the European media’s hatred for Bush.

I agree, not only the European media but what about the American media's hate for Bush and CONSERVATIVE VALUES?

Mark, I am sure you are a good person. But please stop watching the mainstream media and get some balanced news. Everything you said up there is for the most part false. The liberal media does not tell you about the stuff Liberals truely want. Which is to remove God and the Christian values that come with it. The breakdown in society began when liberal agendas came into play. The divorce rate shot up, rape, murder, etc... all of it rose when things like roe v. wade, and contraceptives became mainstream. And they have brought it to making it illegal to teach The Constitution of the United States in schools. WHY? Because it has the words "...Under God." All this in the name of tolerance. It is ok for them to push their agenda on us. But when we Conservatives speak back we are called "hate mongers, and racist bigots."

Think about that one for a minute

Peace
WF4Christ

 

[Markh]

I don't think Mark meant that Europe as a secular continent and as a Union would or could represent Catholicism better than America. I believe he was referring to our history and the application of social doctrine, something which America has never seen.

that's right!

 

[Markh]

Mark, I am sure you are a good person. But please stop watching the mainstream media and get some balanced news. Everything you said up there is for the most part false.

No!

It is the American Republicans who are confused! They obviously haven't compared what they are voting for and supporting to the content of the catechism and papl encyclicals on welfare etc

for the War in Iraq- read up on ARTICLE 5 2258- 2317 and up on Jus Ad Bellum. On Catholic grounds, the war was wrong.

For Gun control- note in the catechism that it states that
2316 public authorities have the right and duty to regulate arms

for the environment- not how Bush is, because of neo liberal economics, more bothered about economic success on graphs in the short terms, rather than any kind of environmental stability. I shouldn't have to point you to the catechism on this one.

for death penalty- note that Bush has never let someone off the death penalty, he has always upholded it, even when there has been strong evidence that someone is mad. The death penalty is condemned in the situations where bush could give life inprisonment. Read 2267-
Cases when the death penalty is the only option are : "very rare, if not practically non-existent"

on economics, the Catholic Church's social teachings are against free market capitalism. European Catholics will be able to tell you how shockingly un-catholic American economics is- it is materialist based, it is individualistic, it lacks redistribution, it is very un Catholic.
--------

And now the attack on European Catholicism! We are still the cradle of Christianity and don't you forget that- Europe still far far far supresses America in terms of vocations, if you want an account of how secularism has got to people look at the rock bottom seminary numbers in America.

Then compare it to Poland, malta, spain, Italy and Portugal which despite what your media has been telling you actually have pretty decent seminary figures and in Malta, portugal and Poland- still have abortion as illegal.

Also, remember that Europe has woken up to the problems we have and there are tonnes of new youth movements. I am a member of one, then there is Opus Dei, which is doing a lot of great work in evangelising.

European Catholicism is also much more orthodox than some of the practices which go on in America.
------

You have to remember when you look at church attendance figures in Europe, that because everyone in many European countries are Catholics (seriously, very high numbers of baptisms) it stands to reason that many aren't actually "Catholic Catholics".

 

[RhetorTheo]

Can somebody give me a single quote by the Pope (not a deacon or a surrogate, but the Pope) condemning the Iraq war (not war in general, but this war)?

 

[princess_ballet]

on economics, the Catholic Church's social teachings are against free market capitalism. European Catholics will be able to tell you how shockingly un-catholic American economics is- it is materialist based, it is individualistic, it lacks redistribution, it is very un Catholic.

Oh, so now capitalism is bad. Where have we heard that one is bad. Let me guess, you're pushing for socialsim? If the pope comes out for that one, like he did against the war, I might not be Catholic anymore...

AAAAHEM, hello people. This is the 4th page and the OP still has not been answered because you were debating other things that were not even asked.

princess_ballet - If it were me I would talk to the leader about this. All that hard work you put in and you find out in the end about this stuff. Tell him how you feel.

Haha...thank you very very much.

 

[PeterPaul]

Oh, so now capitalism is bad. Where have we heard that one is bad. Let me guess, you're pushing for socialsim? If the pope comes out for that one, like he did against the war, I might not be Catholic anymore...


Haha...thank you very very much.

Why is it either/or? Why do people assume that if you critique one thing you MUST be for the other? And if your fidelity to Christ's Church rests on capitalism, then I would say your faith is rather shaky. How nationalistic!

Now, in order that we further do not go down the line of derailing your thread, I propose we start a new one where OBOB debates this using the encyclicals. Anyone up for it?

 

[ukok]

Can somebody give me a single quote by the Pope (not a deacon or a surrogate, but the Pope) condemning the Iraq war (not war in general, but this war)?

Does this not speak for the Holy Father on the Iraq issue ?

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2003/documents/rc_seg-st_20030219_migliore-security-council_en.html

God Bless.

 

[Benedicta00]

Shelb, as a European living in America I can tell you it goes both ways. In America I have to defend Europe. In Europe I have to defend America. Both have misconceptions about the other. Its as complex as Protestantism vs. Catholicism. Both have prejudices.

I understand that PP. All media is extremely liberal in the US and overseas. One can not buy into what they hear on TV from any country. I know there is a campaign in Europe that is anti Bush, I believe Mark as bought into it. IIRC, I believe there were Europeans mailing American giving their opinion and asking us not to vote for Bush. How ridiculous is that? This is our country and it was our election they should not being influencing our vote.

 

[Markh]

99.9% of people on my university campus were pro Kerry, I was Pro Bush for the election.

myself and another Christian put up a Bush Cheyney poster on our window and everyone was annoyed with us.

I'm just saying I can't believe people actually think Bush is good for anything other than his slightly pro-life stance.

I thought us Catholics had a kind of conspiracy and that we were just using Bush for his slightly pro-life stance. Apparently some people didn't get this whole deal and think they should like him for his other stances, even though they are un-Catholic.