Bush Backs Israel on West Bank

[jameseb]

World opinion has never concerned me, I am a supporter of the truth and world opinion rarely goes along with that.

Well said, Rooster. Truth and justice are more important to me than world opinion... and if anything, world opinion is slowly turning to Israel. Am I the only one that remembers Hollywood using the Oscars in the 70's as a platform to condemn the Israelis?

 

[jsn112]

I think this takes us to an old chesnut. What came into play with Jesus? In Jesus is there any genuine movement from an old to a new covenant.
I respect you might wish to have it that there has not been such a movement: but I, in seeing a value in the existentiality of Jesus, the achieved humanity of Jesus; would have to differ.
In Jesus, and in the potential of all those who follow his example, the Biblical truth, the prohecy, the Christ achievment: comes to lie in every human person; and to be fulcrummed in the now of present circumstance.
We can recover the God that grounds us all, and in so doing, and to so do, we can resolve the conflicts of Israel Palestine: we can prevent the land being divided, and violence following; we can secure peaceful coexistence, the stumbling block can be overcome.
God will provide for this possibility: in God is such possibility.
That is my faith.

Wishful thinking does come into play in this situation. If Jesus does what you imagine, then the books of the prophets are nothing. Prophecies must be fulfilled. There is no go around regarding this. However, If you are right, then God lied. And God can't lie.

We can try to prevent violent as much as we can as you suggested. But the prophecies still have to be fulfilled.

 

[Existential1]

We can try to prevent violent as much as we can as you suggested. But the prophecies still have to be fulfilled.

You are right God does not lie: but the interpretations of man can be misleading.
If the violence is prevented then my God lives: and that for me is sufficient. I tend to rejig the metaphor of the many rooms to God's mansion, in modern engineering terms. Why can't we have an architecture to what we share, where you can have what you must have, and I can have what I must have. God is such, it seems to me, that both our selves, our perspectives of faith and occurrence can be accomodated. Would you stand in the way of such possibility: are there things that are so important to you; that they would come before any such possibility of co-existence. I have faith that all things arise in God: they pass away in God; and they come and they go, on this vehicle of faith. I believe that if I die to what I imagined i could not be without, in order to accomodate you: that in the magnificence and mystery that is God; I will find myself to have given up nothing, and to have been reborn in God's eternal truth.
Please understand how hard I have to work, to not be hurt when you term all this "wishful thinking".

 

[jsn112]

You are right God does lie:

I never said God lied. The opposite is true: God can't lie.

but the interpretations of man can be misleading.
If the violence is prevented then my God lives: and that for me is sufficient. I tend to rejig the metaphor of the many rooms to God's mansion, in modern engineering terms. Why can't we have an architecture to what we share, where you can have what you must have, and I can have what I must have. God is such, it seems to me, that both our selves, our perspectives of faith and occurrence can be accomodated. Would you stand in the way of such possibility: are there things that are so important to you; that they would come before any such possibility of co-existence. I have faith that all things arise in God: they pass away in God; and they come and they go, on this vehicle of faith. I believe that if I die to what I imagined i could not be without, in order to accomodate you: that in the magnificence and mystery that is God; I will find myself to have given up nothing, and to have been reborn in God's eternal truth.
Please understand how hard I have to work, to not be hurt when you term all this "wishful thinking".

Then your god is different than my God, my Lord and savior. Because I don't find any of your sayings remotely the same as the Bible. And that's what I based on. Yours sound more like new-age stuff.

 

[Existential1]

God does not lie.
That is what is should have typed.
I'm dyslexic: so sometimes my mind has moved on, before my mouth or fingers have completed words, and they get missed out.
That was a bad one though.

 

[Existential1]

I don't find any of your sayings remotely the same as the Bible. And that's what I based on. Yours sound more like new-age stuff.

With all respect, it seems that each of us have our own interpretation of the Bible. I embrace yours, whether or not you do mine: but that does leave us with a difficulty.
I don't really understand what you mean by "new-age"

 

[jsn112]

With all respect, it seems that each of us have our own interpretation of the Bible. I embrace yours, whether or not you do mine: but that does leave us with a difficulty.
I don't really understand what you mean by "new-age"

Well, when someone starts to say God does lie. My alarms started to sound. Fortunately, it was a typo. Go on continue...

 

[cbmen]

By G.W Bush, the international terrorist leading the United States government endorsing Ariel Sharon's plan, and calling him "a great leader" and "a man of peace and vision" G.W really just destroyed the road map to peace, received Internationally condemtion, and came out of the cloest in rewards to Israel when they commit atroceties against the Palestinian people-- not to mention to attempt to pick up the Jewish American vote.

George W. Bush claims to come in the name of peace, a Christian he calls himself, but sends bombs which have killed over 10,000 Iraqi children and has direct ties to Haliburton.

How sick of a man is George W. Bush? He has already spared over 700 American lives in Iraq to a cause that is unjust, now he is sparing the lives of millions of Palestinians and Israeli's. George W. Bush lies to his people, lies to the world.

George W. Bush is nothing but a greedy hyprocrite with no concern for human life.

 

[jameseb]

 

[cbmen]

Why is that when pro Israeli anti Palestine supporters hear something they don't like they resort to name calling?

 

[jsn112]

Why is that when pro Israeli anti Palestine supporters hear something they don't like they resort to name calling?

Let me guess, you are going to vote for Kerry, right? I knew it! I knew it!

 

[Existential1]

CbMen, You just hang in there buddy. Say it like you see it. Make your witness, and don't be deflected by the flak. What you say is important: not least because its your truth; run with it as far as you can. Don't let the nippy dogs put you off: they bark at what is strange; just out of habit.

P.S. You do have to allow for the fact that you could be wrong; and we all have to be careful of slipping into name calling ourselves.

 

[jameseb]

Don't let the nippy dogs put you off: they bark at what is strange; just out of habit.

 

[praying]

Well said, Rooster. Truth and justice are more important to me than world opinion... and if anything, world opinion is slowly turning to Israel. Am I the only one that remembers Hollywood using the Oscars in the 70's as a platform to condemn the Israelis?

James what is the truth?

 

[jameseb]

James what is the truth?

Santa Claus is real.

 

[praying]

Santa Claus is real.

I was serious.

 

[Vedant]

1) There was no such thing as Israel being a country until the 1900's.
2) There were relatively no jews in the Israel-Palestine area 100 years ago. The Arabs outnumbered them by 100-fold.
3) The Palestinians were the ones who were first promised autonomy over that land by Britain for helping them overturn the Ottoman Empire in WWI, before the holocaust.
4) Palestine took in more Jews fleeing the holocaust than any other country in the world.
5) The supposed God-given mandate for Jews to reclaim what was once historically Israel thousands of years ago, was contrived by Theodore Herzl about 100 years ago.
6) There was no Palestinian-Israeli conflict for ages and ages. It started maybe 80 years ago. It's a modern conflict, not a historical one.
7) Zionists convinced Britain to give the land to the Jews.
8) The first terrorists in Palestine was a Jewish organization. If you don't believe me, look up "Irgun".
9) The terrorists and political zionism eventually made Britain leave the situation and make concessions for the Jews.
10) Israel spends about 8 billion dollars on their military. For contrast, India spends about 11 Billion. Israel is about the size of New Jersey.

These are all facts. Of course, I've probably presented them with some of my own bias, the facts stand, incontrovertibly. Zionism is Israel's version of manifest destiny. The same one that killed all the native Americans and portrayed them as evil man-killers up until recently. I see history repeating itself. It's okay to think what you want. Zionism as a state of mind is perfectly fine with me. When you start kicking people out of the land that their ancestors had inhabited for hundreds of years, by force, or by swindling legal practices, even if you think it's Biblically correct that is wrong. People who have nothing to lose don't care about killing themselves. People who have nothing to lose because it was taken away from them, are driven to do one thing...drive their irrational anger upon some generality (Jewish people) that is related to their adversity. The Palestinians now have nothing. They don't have their land, they don't have outside political backing, they don't have 8 billion dollars to spend on tanks and airplanes. They are just a lot more resilient than the native americans. They won't stand for being pushed around, and the terrorist bombings that they do is a blaring sign of it.

One person once told me that the problem with monotheistic religions is that believing in one means that the others are false. It's either dominate or be dominated. I told him that dominating or being dominated doesn't have to involve violence. Has anyone ever thought of dominating by something else...hmmm...maybe love for instance? That's exactly what we haven't given the muslims. What does Israel expect in return? Warm smiles and happiness? BS.

I don't know what the solution is. It certainly shouldn't be our dimwit president who harbors disdain for history, facts, and basic human logic. If he was truly trying to protect us from terrorists, maintaining the status quo in Israel and Palestine would be much better protection than supporting Israel. That is more along the lines of what every other presidency has done since Israel was created, and I'd feel much safer if Bush did the same.

 

[oldrooster]

Really, terrorisim is the moslem version of manifest destiny. I will take Israels anyday.

 

[Zoot]

How about that roadmap to peace, eh?

How about that two-state solution, eh?

How about them Geneva Conventions.

How about that international law.

How about those human rights.

Feels like I've been punched in the gut, hearing about Sharon's plan to pull all the illegal settlements out, hearing about Bush backing it, seeing Bush and Hosni Mubarak standing together, then hearing that many of the illegal settlements would remain.

Hey, look! It's the list of United Nations Security Council resolutions against Israel's dealings with the Palestinians! Remember the United Nations Security Council resolutions? They're the ones Bush cited as an excuse to invade Iraq! They're the ones Bush tried to get in order to sanction his invasion of Iraq! The ones Bush obviously sees as some kind of respectable authority!

When it suits him, that is.

Of course, by "Bush", I mean his administration. You can't hold one person accountable for the actions of an entire government.

 

[Zoot]

Really, terrorisim is the moslem version of manifest destiny. I will take Israels anyday.

You'll take Israel's terrorism over Islam's? Well, I suppose Israel does put on more of a show. I mean, suicide bombings are so crude, but Israel has US helicopters to carry out its terrorism! Now, that's class!