Buddhism: The 4NT-8FP is Problem-Solving Technique in Life

[Joyousperson]

4NT = Four NobleTruth
8FP = Noble Eight Fold Path

The Buddha's 4NT-8FP is a very sophisticated Life Problem Solving Technique.
By going through the process systematically, diligently and iteratively, one would be able to resolve any mental problems (btw not physical or those that need serious psychiatric treatments) and live one's life optimally.

The four noble truths (4NT) can be summarized as follows:

1.The truth of dukkha (suffering, anxiety, stress, angst)
2.The truth of the origin of dukkha
3.The truth of the cessation of dukkha
4.The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha -8FP*​

*8FP = Noble Eight Fold Paths

1. Right understanding (Samma ditthi)
2. Right thought (Samma sankappa)
3. Right speech (Samma vaca)
4. Right action (Samma kammanta)
5. Right livelihood (Samma ajiva)
6. Right effort (Samma vayama)
7. Right mindfulness (Samma sati)
8. Right concentration (Samma samadhi)

The Basic Problem Solving Technique

1. Defining the problem.
2. Generating alternatives.
3. Evaluating and selecting alternatives.
4. Implementing solutions.
5.Feedback and Control​

The 4NT-8FP when transposed as a conventional problem solving technique or model is as follows;

1. Defining the problem.
NT1 -The truth of dukkha (suffering, anxiety, stress)
NT2 -The truth of the origin of dukkha -12 Nidanas

2. Generating alternatives.
NT3 -The truth of the cessation of dukkha -Reverse 12 Nidanas

3. Evaluating and selecting alternatives.
NT4 -The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha -8FP

4. Implementing solutions.
8FP -Right View, Intention, Speech, Action, Livelihood, Effort, Concentration, Mindfulness

F5. Feedback and Control
Right View - Is the problem resolved?

Yes, -seek improvements
No, -Goto 1 and repeat process until expected results are achieved.​

The above is just a model.
Plus point is, it is an objective model and it provide a framework as a guide for anyone to work on.
To put into actual effective practice, it will entail complex, many processes and detail work. The details can be found within the various sutras from the various Buddhist schools. What is needed is to compile the various sets of practices from different schools into one common practice.

Is the above model effective, reasonable and practical?
Views.

One point with the above model and actual progress must be accompanied by actual improvements in the neural network within the brain which can be proven by FMRI imagings and other tests.

The above model works best when the Buddha story is deemed as a myth, where one's effort is focused on the model and the Buddha's core principles.

 

[YJM]

That's the great thing about Jesus - he can heal mental and physical issues as well - here's my wife being healed on Friday night from arthritis, fibromyalgia and a torn meniscus in her left knee - Jesus was able to do in 30 seconds what doctors had been unable to help her with in 19 years :

 

[Joyousperson]

That's the great thing about Jesus - he can heal mental and physical issues as well - here's my wife being healed on Friday night from arthritis, fibromyalgia and a torn meniscus in her left knee - Jesus was able to do in 30 seconds what doctors had been unable to help her with in 19 years :

Good for you.

The purpose of the OP is specific to Buddhism, thus no intention to compare with other religions.
In the case of the OP, it can only resolve problems related to the mental and psychological ones and not physical ones like the above.

 

[BioLeap]

4NT = Four NobleTruth
8FP = Noble Eight Fold Path

The Buddha's 4NT-8FP is a very sophisticated Life Problem Solving Technique.
By going through the process systematically, diligently and iteratively, one would be able to resolve any mental problems (btw not physical or those that need serious psychiatric treatments) and live one's life optimally.

The four noble truths (4NT) can be summarized as follows:

1.The truth of dukkha (suffering, anxiety, stress, angst)
2.The truth of the origin of dukkha
3.The truth of the cessation of dukkha
4.The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha -8FP*​

*8FP = Noble Eight Fold Paths

1. Right understanding (Samma ditthi)
2. Right thought (Samma sankappa)
3. Right speech (Samma vaca)
4. Right action (Samma kammanta)
5. Right livelihood (Samma ajiva)
6. Right effort (Samma vayama)
7. Right mindfulness (Samma sati)
8. Right concentration (Samma samadhi)

The Basic Problem Solving Technique

1. Defining the problem.
2. Generating alternatives.
3. Evaluating and selecting alternatives.
4. Implementing solutions.
5.Feedback and Control​

The 4NT-8FP when transposed as a conventional problem solving technique or model is as follows;

1. Defining the problem.
NT1 -The truth of dukkha (suffering, anxiety, stress)
NT2 -The truth of the origin of dukkha -12 Nidanas

2. Generating alternatives.
NT3 -The truth of the cessation of dukkha -Reverse 12 Nidanas

3. Evaluating and selecting alternatives.
NT4 -The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha -8FP

4. Implementing solutions.
8FP -Right View, Intention, Speech, Action, Livelihood, Effort, Concentration, Mindfulness

F5. Feedback and Control
Right View - Is the problem resolved?

Yes, -seek improvements
No, -Goto 1 and repeat process until expected results are achieved.​

The above is just a model.
Plus point is, it is an objective model and it provide a framework as a guide for anyone to work on.
To put into actual effective practice, it will entail complex, many processes and detail work. The details can be found within the various sutras from the various Buddhist schools. What is needed is to compile the various sets of practices from different schools into one common practice.

Is the above model effective, reasonable and practical?
Views.

One point with the above model and actual progress must be accompanied by actual improvements in the neural network within the brain which can be proven by FMRI imagings and other tests.

The above model works best when the Buddha story is deemed as a myth, where one's effort is focused on the model and the Buddha's core principles.

Buddha had it completely wrong.

Life is not suffering, and suffering is not caused by desire but our want's.

In fact because of him, he's caused people more suffering when they believe they must cut off all their desires.

I bet he couldn't even desire to go to the toilet.

 

[Joyousperson]

Buddha had it completely wrong.

Life is not suffering, and suffering is not caused by desire but our want's.

In fact because of him, he's caused people more suffering when they believe they must cut off all their desires.

I bet he couldn't even desire to go to the toilet.

Where did the Buddha claimed Life is Suffering? It's dukkha and that is not simply caused mainly by desire ['tanha' is nevertheless one of the 12 factors contributing to Dukkha].

The often stated "Life is Suffering" is merely a cliche which is said too often and taken up blindly by most people.

The main point with the 4NT is 'Dukkha' [a very complex concept that cannot be translated as simply "suffering"] is an inherent human nature that need to be addressed.

The main variables of Dukkha are represented in the Buddha's Story, i.e. the fears and anxieties related to disease, old age and inevitable mortality [the corpse in the story].

The mother of all Dukkha is the existential anxieties/crisis arising from the self-consciousness of inevitable mortality.

DNA wise, this existential crisis/anxiety is inherent in ALL human beings.

Christianity provide the solution to this existential crisis/anxiety with a promise of eternal life via John 3:16. It is the same for Islam and Judaism, i.e. via a belief in God via faith.

Buddhism-proper on the other hand, provide an iterative Problem-Solving Technique for the Buddhist to rewire [thus require the necessary work] his/her brain/mind to deal with the inherent existential crisis.

Another point with Buddhism it has various different schools to cater for the many different types of spiritual seekers. Thus there are Buddhist sects that advocate strong faith in their practice, almost like the Abrahamic religion, e.g. the Pure Land School promised some sort of salvation Buddhist's style.

So, the line 'Life is Suffering' as caused by Desire is merely a cliche.
To understand Buddhism holistically, one need to understand what is Buddhism-proper and then its variations into the different schools of Buddhism, i.e. Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana and their respective sects.

Btw, I am not a Buddhist, just interested and agree with the philosophy of Buddhism-proper.

 

[BioLeap]

Where did the Buddha claimed Life is Suffering? It's dukkha and that is not simply caused mainly by desire [nevertheless on of the 12 factors].

The often stated "Life is Suffering" is merely a cliche which is said too often and taken up blindly by most people.

The main point with the 4NT is 'Dukkha' [a very complex concept that cannot be translated as simply "suffering"] is an inherent human nature that need to be addressed.

The main variables of Dukkha are represented in the Buddha's Story, i.e. the fears and anxieties related to disease, old age and inevitable mortality [the corpse in the story].

The mother of all Dukkha is the existential anxieties/crisis arising from the self-consciousness of inevitable mortality.

DNA wise, this existential crisis/anxiety is inherent in ALL human beings.

Christianity provide the solution to this existential crisis/anxiety with a promise of eternal life via John 3:16. It is the same for Islam and Judaism, i.e. via a belief in God via faith.

Buddhism-proper on the other hand, provide an iterative Problem-Solving Technique for the Buddhist to rewire [thus require the necessary work] his/her brain/mind to deal with the inherent existential crisis.

Another point with Buddhism it has various different schools to cater for the many different types of spiritual seekers. Thus there are Buddhist sects that advocate strong faith in their practice, almost like the Abrahamic religion, e.g. the Pure Land School promised some sort of salvation Buddhist's style.

So, the line 'Life is Suffering' and cause by Desire is merely a cliche.
To understand Buddhism, one need to understand what is Buddhism-proper and then its variations into the different schools of Buddhism, i.e. Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana and their respective sects.

Btw, I am not a Buddhist, just interested and agree with the philosophy of Buddhism-proper.

You lie! Or did I lie? Who the Smurf lied? Did Buddha lie? Heck, stuff all these belief systems.

 

[Joyousperson]

You lie! Or did I lie? Who the Smurf lied? Did Buddha lie? Heck, stuff all these belief systems.

What I wrote can be verified objectively to the Sutras.

In the ultimate sense, Buddhism-proper is not a belief, but a Problem Solving Technique Model that is universal in changing the brain/mind to resolve an inherent inevitable existential issues.

 

[BioLeap]

What I wrote can be verified objective to the Sutras.

I'm sure it can but is it required I believe in them? Because if so I'm going to have to get a new brain pretty soon.

(I don't want to ruin the one I've got)

 

[Joyousperson]

I'm sure it can but is it required I believe in them? Because if so I'm going to have to get a new brain pretty soon.

(I don't want to ruin the one I've got)

In a way there is some sense of believe but not the kind of belief related to blind faith, which may be suited to whoever is inclined to it.

Believing comes in a continuum from 1% to 99% confidence level.

In respect of Buddhism-proper what is presented is a universal problem technique that is universal and used by scientists, doctors, in IT, AI and everywhere. Thus it would be very odd, if you were to reject the model.

What you can be doubtful is the detailed practices of Buddhism-proper within the model. However the cause and effect of the detail processes can be and must be verified empirically.

There is nothing frightening changing one's brain and mind for the better if the progress can be monitored empirically for the better.
The brain of a person would have changed for the better academically when one progress from kindergarten, grade and high school, to college, master and a PhD. Agree?
The brain of the competitors in the current French Open Tennis Championship would have changed for the better in tennis skills since they started from say age 5.

In the case of Buddhism-proper, the measuring criteria is the Spiritual Quotient [SQ] of the Buddhist, also applicable for other spiritual seekers.

With advances in the neurosciences, e.g.
Human Connectome Project | Mapping the human brain connectivity
[you know what is this?]
it would be possible to measure the SQ of a person in the future.

 

[MehGuy]

How effective is Buddhism typically in practice? For me, it might reduce some suffering, but also add a lot of boredom in my life. Of course not every path is for everyone, and that's fine. Personally for me, wants and desires and even failure is part of the enjoyment of life.

 

[RichardY]

*8FP = Noble Eight Fold Paths

1. Right understanding (Samma ditthi)
2. Right thought (Samma sankappa)
3. Right speech (Samma vaca)
4. Right action (Samma kammanta)
5. Right livelihood (Samma ajiva)
6. Right effort (Samma vayama)
7. Right mindfulness (Samma sati)
8. Right concentration (Samma samadhi)

1) Right understanding.

I was listening to a video, fairly recently. Titled "Day 1 (20-Mar-15) - The Fundamental Wisdom Treatise of The Middle Way by Nagarjuna" on Youtube.

Anyway, in the video the Dalai Lama, points to the distinction of Anatta(No Self, No soul) and Atman (self and soul). Says he "doesn't know, you tell me."

When I was thinking about atheism, Buddhism made the most sense. If the self or soul is a complete illusion, then eliminating it would seem to be the decent thing to do. Perhaps there is some useful information, I was listening to an anthology on the Pali canon a while a go, but I believe the focus is more on tradition. I think the Bible is superior as a ordered comprehensive system.

My point is, if the understanding is wrong, everything else can fall apart. I like the concept of non-duality, which is why I was looking for information on Nagarjuna."The Middle Way". However I'm sure a similar thing can be inferred from the Bible. John 1:1
Job 33:14

Personally I think the universe is "The mind of God." And ultimately subjective reality & identity is the only thing that can be said to exist. However an external reality can be simulated objectively; Buddhists and Objectivists mistake the external for the real.

The Concept of Anatta or Not-Self in Buddhism

 

[Joyousperson]

How effective is Buddhism typically in practice? For me, it might reduce some suffering, but also add a lot of boredom in my life. Of course not every path is for everyone, and that's fine. Personally for me, wants and desires and even failure is part of the enjoyment of life.

Buddhism-proper do not specifically reduce sufferings [Dukkha] nor add boredom to anyone's life.

Say in this example;
Person A is accidentally stabbed with a knife and blood is oozing out in large volume.
A person who is not trained in Buddhism-proper is likely to panic, faint, cries and act out whatever that distract him/her from facing the critical problem and terrible sufferings mindfully and take the most effective and optimal steps to resolve the problem.
A person who is a well trained Buddhist will not panic but is mindful in seeing the problem and pains as they are, then take the most effective and optimal actions to prevent the problem from becoming fatal.
​

The above is a simply analogy with a typical problem and suffering.

What is most critical in Buddhism or any other religion is facing the inherent existential crisis/dilemma of inevitable mortality and its related anxieties and existential sufferings. What is more critical is the existential sufferings manifest subliminally and not consciously.
Buddhism-proper provide the effective Problem Solving Technique via the 4NT-8FP to address these existential anxieties methodically.

Note in contrast with Islam.
Islam provide instant solution to the existential crisis, i.e. just believe and enter in a covenant with Allah to comply with the covenanted terms and viola one is automatically promised an assurance and security of a passage to salvation by Allah.
The Muslims will cling to his belief like there is no tomorrow, but the problem here is if his belief is threatened, Allah permit the Muslims to kill those who threatened their security to paradise.
This is so evident where many non-Muslims are kill because they are perceived as a threat to their security of a place in paradise with eternal life.

Christianity being of the Abrahamic family is similar with Islam in promising salvation via a covenant with God and the obligation to comply with the covenanted terms.
But there is a critical difference, Christianity in terms of its doctrine do not permit any Christians to kill non-Christians no matter what the circumstances, but Christians are commanded to love all -even enemies.

As for any sense of boredom, one can use the 4NT-8FP model to resolve the issue of boredom when one feels it.
In apply the above generic and universal model,

the first step is to identify the type of boredom [1st NT],
then find it origins and root cause, [2nd NT]
then the paths to the solutions [3rd NT]
then resolve with solutions [4th NT] and prevent the root cause from recurring and the problem of boredom will be resolve via cycling through the model with continuous improvement.
​

You cannot blame a religion for your boredom if it has provided you the tools and you did not apply it correctly.

 

[Joyousperson]

1) Right understanding.

I was listening to a video, fairly recently. Titled "Day 1 (20-Mar-15) - The Fundamental Wisdom Treatise of The Middle Way by Nagarjuna" on Youtube.

Anyway, in the video the Dalai Lama, points to the distinction of Anatta(No Self, No soul) and Atman (self and soul). Says he "doesn't know, you tell me."

When I was thinking about atheism, Buddhism made the most sense. If the self or soul is a complete illusion, then eliminating it would seem to be the decent thing to do. Perhaps there is some useful information, I was listening to an anthology on the Pali canon a while a go, but I believe the focus is more on tradition. I think the Bible is superior as a ordered comprehensive system.

My point is, if the understanding is wrong, everything else can fall apart. I like the concept of non-duality, which is why I was looking for information on Nagarjuna."The Middle Way". However I'm sure a similar thing can be inferred from the Bible. John 1:1
Job 33:14

Personally I think the universe is "The mind of God." And ultimately subjective reality & identity is the only thing that can be said to exist. However an external reality can be simulated objectively; Buddhists and Objectivists mistake the external for the real.

The Concept of Anatta or Not-Self in Buddhism

In this case, I would prefer not to make comparisons.
Each has its pros and cons, it is up to the individual to opt for what is optimal to their respective circumstances and spiritual state.

Note the Buddhist's doctrine of Two Truths which make the following assertions;

1. The self is both real [p] and an illusion [not-p]

2. The external world is both real [p] and an illusion [not-p]​

The test of each effectiveness is how one applies the truth to the respective circumstances to optimize dynamic results within existing constraints.

For example it would be very stupid for a Buddhist to insist the external world is an illusion, thus the oncoming train of the track one is standing on is an illusion.
However in another perspective, the external world is an illusion [MAYA].
Point is both truths are relatively true in according to the relevant circumstances so that Dukkha is effectively dealt with optimally.

 

[holo]

How effective is Buddhism typically in practice? For me, it might reduce some suffering, but also add a lot of boredom in my life. Of course not every path is for everyone, and that's fine. Personally for me, wants and desires and even failure is part of the enjoyment of life.

For me, what I get from (secular) Buddhism isn't that everything becomes comfortable, but that I become more comfortable being uncomfortable. It doesn't remove pain, but it helps immensely against the suffering that usually comes with the pain. Pain is unavoidable, suffering is, strictly speaking, optional. Suffering is a consequence of how I relate to pain.

To put it in the simplest (and thereby truest, IMO) possible terms, Buddhism to me is about not wanting to be somewhere, or someone, else. It's about choosing the option of having peace.

 

[RichardY]

2. The external world is both real [p] and an illusion [not-p]​

The problem with that, is having it both ways. If external tautologies aren't possible, how can one distinguish one thing from another, and quantify reality.

1. The self is both real [p] and an illusion [not-p]
​

By doing so it is affirming both atman(soul, self) and annatta (no soul, no self). And if dynamic would mean a person has a soul.

In this case, I would prefer not to make comparisons.
Each has its pros and cons, it is up to the individual to opt for what is optimal to their respective circumstances and spiritual state.

If there is no unified structure of reality, then communication would be impossible.

 

[Joyousperson]

The problem with that, is having it both ways. If external tautologies aren't possible, how can one distinguish one thing from another, and quantify reality.

By doing so it is affirming both atman(soul, self) and annatta (no soul, no self). And if dynamic would mean a person has a soul.

If there is no unified structure of reality, then communication would be impossible.

In believing p and not-p at the same time is not a contradiction if applied in a different sense. Thus one must have the ability to toggle [at speed of light] between the different sense.

Example in the empirical world of science;

It is true, a piece of diamond is both hard and soft at the same time, BUT only in different sense.
A piece of diamond in the common and visible sense is hard, but if we view it in an electron microscope and prick it with an electron sized pin it would be relatively soft.
​

Another example, H2O is both hard [if ice] and soft [if water or steam], thus same time but different sense.

There can be many examples.

In terms of self,

Buddhism claims, there is a self [empirical] and no self [annatta, transcendental].
The empirical self is that spirit that hold together the physical self and exists as long as the person is alive.
There is no transcendental self [annatta] in the sense of a soul that survives physical death.

 

[RichardY]

@Joyousperson

Instead of flipping between the two as circumstance demands. One approach is anti-teleological(not p) and the other teleological(p), or becoming. It is embracing paradox, which leads to annihilation. In this life, or the next.

I would say that diamonds are usually thought of as hard, due to their use to cut things, durability and brilliance. So that hard and soft relate to use, so obviously are not properties in themselves of the diamond. Instead of the term sense, I would use... use. Or teleology.

Water can be extremely hard if pressurised, as it is often used to cut metal. Even the waves of the sea smack into things with much force.

Samyutta-Nikaya 22.59
"O monks, the well-instructed noble disciple, seeing thus, gets wearied of form, gets wearied of feeling, gets wearied of perception, gets wearied of mental formations, gets wearied of consciousness. Being wearied he becomes passion-free. In his freedom from passion, he is emancipated. Being emancipated, there is the knowledge that he is emancipated. He knows: 'birth is exhausted, lived is the holy life, what had to be done is done, there is nothing more of this becoming.'"

While a Buddhist is alive in the flesh & spirit, they are defining themselves juxtaposed to nothingness.

 

[Joyousperson]

@Joyousperson

Instead of flipping between the two as circumstance demands. One approach is anti-teleological(not p) and the other teleological(p), or becoming. It is embracing paradox, which leads to annihilation. In this life, or the next.

I would say that diamonds are usually thought of as hard, due to their use to cut things, durability and brilliance. So that hard and soft relate to use, so obviously are not properties in themselves of the diamond. Instead of the term sense, I would use... use. Or teleology.

Water can be extremely hard if pressurised, as it is often used to cut metal. Even the waves of the sea smack into things with much force.

Samyutta-Nikaya 22.59
"O monks, the well-instructed noble disciple, seeing thus, gets wearied of form, gets wearied of feeling, gets wearied of perception, gets wearied of mental formations, gets wearied of consciousness. Being wearied he becomes passion-free. In his freedom from passion, he is emancipated. Being emancipated, there is the knowledge that he is emancipated. He knows: 'birth is exhausted, lived is the holy life, what had to be done is done, there is nothing more of this becoming.'"

While a Buddhist is alive in the flesh & spirit, they are defining themselves juxtaposed to nothingness.

Noted your points and agree, nothing significant to dispute.

 

[ananda]

Is the above model effective, reasonable and practical?

The Eightfold Path has indeed been effective, reasonable, and practical for me.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

In my personal experience, the original Buddhist teachings are the religious tradition that has the best grasp on the human mind and the origin of discontent: its conclusions hold up surprisingly well even from the vantage point of the most advanced mind sciences, even if its more supernatural concepts (which were directly indebted to the vedic cultural background in which Buddhism arose) are clearly as mythical ad those of other religions.

What I struggle with is the notion that permanence would be desirable to begin with. Of course, biological life itself is a sort of "clinging to structures and struggling for permanence", but it's also built around the notion of constant change. Permanence is death. A state where all chemical reactions have run their course, everything remains in its current configuration. Life requires constant reconfiguration, right down to the cellular level.
So, I'm not really looking for permanence, but only a bit of continuity within the roughly 70+ years I'll spend here, if everything goes well.