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Buddhism: Neither Theistic nor Atheistic

Jane_the_Bane

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Well, here's the thing: I do not believe in doctrinal "purity". Ideas need to interact with and influence each other in order to grow properly. What the champions of dogma and traditionalism are promoting is essentially a form of mental incest - with pretty much the same kind of symptoms that you see in its biological equivalent.

Please tell me what you know about Pure Land Buddhism and then please tell me what your primary sources are. I would really appreciate it. What you are saying is clearly a misrepresentation of what Pure Land Buddhists believe and why they believe it.
I know that "Pure Land" Buddhism is faith-based, similar to exoteric Christianity.
 
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Yoder777

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In order to gain a better understanding of what Pure Land Buddhism is really all about, please consider the following:


It's also worth mentioning that the life stories of Gautama Buddha and Amitabha are almost identical, both are men of royalty and wealth who renounced their worldly pleasures and prestige for the sake of bringing all beings to salvation.
 
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Yoder777

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Everything you are saying reflects a serious misunderstanding of what Pure Land Buddhism, and especially Japanese Jodo Shinshu Buddhism, actually teaches:


Please cease and desist making blanket statements mischaracterizing what millions of Buddhists actually believe and practice. It is clear that you don't yet know what you are talking about, but I would be happy to answer basic questions to help your understanding. I don't claim to be more enlightened or moral of a person, but I can answer basic questions.
 
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Yoder777

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Please keep in mind that it's only because I love the Buddha so much and I am thankful for what he did for us that I am willing to defend Buddhism from mischaracterizations that might prevent people from seeing the true light of Buddhism. Sure, there are more secular schools of Buddhism, but they should in no way be claimed as the exclusively legitimate way to practice Buddhism. That would be unfair to a majority of the world's Buddhists, who love the Buddha very much and live to follow his example.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Please keep in mind that it's only because I love the Buddha so much and I am thankful for what he did for us that I am willing to defend Buddhism from mischaracterizations that might prevent people from seeing the true light of Buddhism.

Okay, noted.

Sure, there are more secular schools of Buddhism, but they should in no way be claimed as the exclusively legitimate way to practice Buddhism.

I don't see why one would be obligated to hold that view.

That would be unfair to a majority of the world's Buddhists, who love the Buddha very much and live to follow his example.

Unfairness has nothing to do with truth or falsity.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Yoder777

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Shinran, the founder of Jodo Shinshu, the largest sect of Buddhism in Japan, never claimed to be a master over his students, instead referring to himself as a fellow student of the Buddha. Shinran gave up the austere life of a monk in order to marry, have children, and experience the life of the common people. Unlike the false gurus of today, he never wanted to be the object of devotion.

http://www.tricycle.com/blog/beware-charismatic-guru

By learning about the life and teachings of Shinran, you will learn about the true heart of Buddhism.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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I'd say that what you're saying is a lie from Satan himself and that you need to find Jesus who is the only Way, the Truth, and the Life. There is no salvation outside of Christ. I'll keep you in my prayers.
 
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ananda

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The historical Buddha recognized that detachment from such frivolities leads to greater bliss and peace (I've verified this through my own practice of minimalism) ... so religions which extol such lavish treasures as promises to devotees are laughable, ot me.
 
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Yoder777

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Could the members of this forum please refrain from making offensive mischaracterizations of what Buddhists actually believe? The Pure Land sutras are using words that humans can understand in order to describe a higher reality beyond all human description. I've already explained several times that the Pure Land is a visual way of describing Nirvana.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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This "visual way of describing Nirvana" resembles other forms of fanciful wish-fulfilment, such as the muslim conception of heaven, medieval legends of Cockaigne, or other depictions of splendour and unlimited luxury.
Given that Nirvana is supposed to be the cessation of rebirth, an escape from the cycle of karma, and a final realization that there is no "self" to be reborn to begin with, such depictions strike me as more than a little counter-productive.

They sound a lot more like a mass-compatible, watered-down version of what Buddhism actually had to say.
 
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ananda

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I am a practicing early Buddhist, so I speak from experience and in terms of the earliest strata of Buddhism. I don't believe I am mischaracterizing this type of Buddhism. The historical Buddha is recorded as saying that nibbana is indescribable. The one who attains nibbana "goes to an end that cannot be classified ... One who has reached the end has no criterion ... When all phenomena are done away with, all means of speaking are done away with as well." - Upasiva-manava-puccha (Sn 5.6)

No offense is meant towards your understanding of Mahayana Buddhism.
 
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Yoder777

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I am a practicing early Buddhist...

Fair enough. Who is your teacher and where is your sangha? Even a Theravada Buddhist understands the difference between literal and metaphorical language. I already stated that ultimate Nirvana is indescribable. Pure Land Buddhism, however, in being a school of Buddhism for the common person rather than just for monks and sages, speaks of Nirvana in word symbols that the common person can understand.


Of course, the Buddha himself was very aware of the many different forms and levels of human understanding, and he was therefore more than willing to see the nuance in things to meet people where they're at, all for the sake of reaching a common understanding of the higher truth beyond all human interpretations and conceptualizations.
 
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Yoder777

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For now on, I am ignoring posts that reflect a deliberate inability or unwillingness to understand what Pure Land Buddhists, and what Mahayana Buddhists in general, believe and why they believe it.

It's one thing to disagree with a belief, and quite another to make a straw man of it out of your own willful ignorance. It is not my job to convert people, but I am willing and happy to answer honest questions of what Pure Land Buddhists believe and why they believe it.

I don't claim to be a more moral or enlightened person, but I have my limits.
 
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ananda

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Fair enough. Who is your teacher and where is your sangha?
My Teacher: "For that which I have proclaimed and made known as the Dhamma and the Vinaya, that shall be your Teacher when I am gone" (Mahaparinibbana sutta) ... my Sangha is generally the Kammatthana tradition.

I thought the descriptions were of the Pure Land, and not of nirvana?
 
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Yoder777

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The benefit of seeing the Pure Land as symbolic of Nirvana and Amida as symbolic of the historical Buddha in his enlightened state is that we emphasize our commonality with all other Buddhists.

At the same time, the crucial difference still remains, that we humbly depend on the Other-Power of the Buddha, instead of on our own efforts and merits. In this sense, we take letting go of your ego and taking refuge in the Buddha to its logical conclusion.

Living the Dharma as a path to peace remains important, but we can be freed from the anxiety of having to rely solely on our own efforts through trusting in Amida Buddha.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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And how is this NOT what I described earlier, when you grew flustered and claimed I was pushing a straw man around?
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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BTW, identifying so strongly with an ideology that criticism aimed at the same feels like a personal insult strikes me as
a) indicative on an unhealthy mindset that prevents growth rather than promoting it, and
b) very un-Buddhist in and of itself, lacking the sort of detachment and non-identification that lies at its core.
 
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A common person hearing promises of "streets of gold" would think that there is actually a place with streets of gold, or so I would guess.

What I wonder is if the esoteric meanings (whatever deeper meanings one can get from streets of gold) were intended for the monastics to ponder, and that the lay persons were permitted to be enticed by thoughts of streets of gold if that is the level of awareness that they exist on.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Pure Land Buddhism, however, in being a school of Buddhism for the common person rather than just for monks and sages, speaks of Nirvana in word symbols that the common person can understand.
Maybe I'm just too much of an intellectual elitist, then.
I'd say that if you start by pointing out that the genuinely transcendent defies the self-referential categories of language, you CANNOT end up by describing it in terms of worldly splendour. It's self-defeating, even if it's more accessible to the "common people".
Dumbing down isn't helpful. It's a crutch at best, and more likely a hobble that prevents further insight.
 
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Yoder777

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That's a very good question, and it goes back to the Buddha's doctrine of expedient means. Could you please tell me if you are familiar with it?
 
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