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Buddhism: Neither Theistic nor Atheistic

Yoder777

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I think the evidence for the resurrection is compelling. Something surely happened to change the apostles.

I tried Shin, and I still admire it, but I find Christianity more compelling.

I am sorry to say this, but Jesus was one of many crucified Jews in the first-century whose followers believed to be the Messiah, and one of many figures in the ancient Roman world believed to have been risen from the dead:

http://pocm.info/pagan_ideas_raised_from_the_dead.html

The things you've shared so far in this thread suggest to me that your knowledge of Shin Buddhism is rather limited. What books on Shin Buddhist teachings have you actually read? Who is your sensei and have you discussed your concerns with him?

I am not trying to convert you one way or another, but you at least should make an informed decision.
 
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smaneck

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I think we're getting somewhere.
 
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nightflight

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The things you've shared so far in this thread suggest to me that your knowledge of Shin Buddhism is rather limited. What books on Shin Buddhist teachings have you actually read? Who is your sensei and have you discussed your concerns with him?

So I'm not doin' it right, huh?

Have you experienced Shinjin, Yoder?

I am not trying to convert you one way or another, but you at least should make an informed decision.

I tried Shin; it didn't do it for me. Maybe its because my knowledge of it is limited, but its as least as much as the everyday people that Shinran encountered.

As for my reading list,
River of Fire, River of Water- Teitetsu Unno
Shin Buddhism- Teitetsu Unno
Buddhism of the Heart- Jeff Wilson
Tariki- Hiroyuki Itsuki
Buddha of Infinite Light- Daisetz Suzuki
Naturalness- Kenro Kanamatsu
Ocean- Ken Tanaka
Tannisho- Teitetsu Unno translation
Call of the Infinite- John Paraskavopolous
Heart of the Shin Buddhist Path- Takamaro Shigaraki
The Essential Shinran- Al Bloom
 
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Yoder777

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So I'm not doin' it right, huh?

No, and neither am I. The whole idea of trusting in Amida Buddha is that he does the work for us, including giving us faith. This may sound like an evangelical Christian idea, but Shinran wrote it three hundred years before Martin Luther, and based it on ancient Mahayana sutras.


I must ask again, who is your sensei and have you discussed your concerns with him? This is an important matter, and is between you and your sensei to resolve. The third part of the triple gem is taking refuge in the sangha. If you never joined a sangha, were you ever truly a Buddhist?
 
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Yoder777

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There is a fundamental doctrine of Buddhism that, if true, is incompatible with traditional Christianity, and that is the doctrine of reincarnation or rebirth. Of all views on the afterlife, reincarnation is the most well researched and well documented. While there may be alternative ways of explaining the evidence, one cannot deny that the evidence is there.


This is a documentary on documented cases of reincarnation:

Buddhism, of all religions, has the most logical explanation for reincarnation:


In Buddhism, faith isn't blind belief. Faith is rooted in evidence, reasoning, and personal experience.
 
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nightflight

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I cannot believe in a literal Amida.


Sounds less and less like a doctrine of grace. I have to join a sangha? I have no sensei; there are no Shin temples in my town. Are you really saying all the Shin Buddhists in Japan are members of sanghas?
 
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Yoder777

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I cannot believe in a literal Amida.



Sounds less and less like a doctrine of grace. I have to join a sangha? I have no sensei; there are no Shin temples in my town. Are you really saying all the Shin Buddhists in Japan are members of sanghas?

A sangha, in modern language, refers to any Buddhist congregation, not just a monastery. It can even be one formed through Meetup.com. Since Shin Buddhism is the largest sect of Buddhism in Japan, then Shin Buddhists most certainly belong to sanghas. Are you familiar with the reasons why Buddha stressed the importance of belonging to a community of believers?

You'd probably be better informed if you weren't trying to learn Buddhism on your own. You'd still be encouraged to ultimately think and decide for yourself, but you'd at least have better information to make a decision.

Again and again, I have explained to you the meaning of Amida Buddha and entrusting in him, and again and again you evade the issue. Will you not even listen to Shinran himself, and yet you claim to have been a Shin Buddhist??? -

Here we see Shinran explaining that Amida Buddha is the personification of Nirvana, the eternal Buddha, and it is in the eternal Buddha to whom we give our faith, and this faith itself is a gift from the eternal Buddha. If you don't believe in the eternal Buddha, you are not a Buddhist.

What Shin Buddhist texts have you actually read? You can't just read some Wikipedia articles, never belong to an actual temple, and then claim that Shin Buddhism just didn't work for you.

Please keep in mind that I am not trying to convert you one way or another. It just appears to me that you are not making an informed decision, and it's a responsibility that you owe to yourself if you are a real truth seeker.
 
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Yoder777

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I've always wondered why Buddhism even had reincarnation. If there is no permanent self, what is there to be reincarnated?

Buddhism has a uniquely logical way of explaining the phenomenon of karma and rebirth:


Given the documented evidence in favor of reincarnation, why not believe in it? Does Baha'i faith teach against it?

Please keep in mind that I am not trying to convert anyone to Buddhism. I can, however, answer basic questions on what Pure Land Buddhists believe and why.
 
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Yoder777

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Please read the following and tell me if you have any questions:


How can you say Shin Buddhism doesn't work for you if you don't even know what it teaches and why?

This article clearly explains why faith in Amida Buddha is preferable to faith in traditional Christianity:
http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/Faith.html

Regarding your interest in history, here it is:


I encourage you to read the rest of the article if you really want to know why Shin Buddhism might better suit you.
 
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smaneck

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Given the documented evidence in favor of reincarnation, why not believe in it?

If I could remember my past lives I would believe in reincarnation. If I can't, then it wasn't me who lived them. I not going to believe because someone else claims to remember their past lives.

Does Baha'i faith teach against it?

Yes and no. We do not believe that souls return to this plane of existence. Neither do we believe in a static heaven or hell. We believe that when a soul dies they go on to another plane of existence where they hopefully will continue to progress.
 
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Yoder777

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If I could remember my past lives I would believe in reincarnation. If I can't, then it wasn't me who lived them. I not going to believe because someone else claims to remember their past lives.

Are you familiar with the scientific research on reincarnation?
 
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Eudaimonist

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It's how Buddhism is perceived in the West by atheists looking to further their own agenda and by self-help gurus looking to make a quick buck.

There may be some dishonest people out there doing that, but my impression is that most of this is sincere and honest from people who genuinely appreciate the philosophical ideas. You might want to thank them for focusing on what is best in Buddhism.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Yoder777

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If you took the Koran and removed anything about Allah, kept only the moral instructions, and insisted that's all modern people need, what would a Muslim think of that? If you took the Gospels and removed anything supernatural, kept only the moral instructions, and insisted that's all modern people need, what would a Christian think of that?
 
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Yoder777

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Anyone who comments on what Buddha taught or what Buddhism teaches, but who has never even heard of Pure Land Buddhism, probably has no real idea of what Buddha taught.

 
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Eudaimonist

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I don't care what they might think of that. Why should I?

What they might think wouldn't make my conclusions about what modern people need incorrect.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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It's how Buddhism is perceived in the West by atheists looking to further their own agenda and by self-help gurus looking to make a quick buck.
There is FAR more money to be made with authoritarian "personality cult"-type religions than with "try this for yourself and see if it works"-approaches. In fact, it's one of the defining characteristics of what's commonly called a "cult".
Just look at the Hare Krishnas for an example: it's basically Hinduism conceived through the lens of Christian fundamentalism, specifically geared towards a western audience.

Well, it's a teacher's JOB to help people travel the path he's already tread, so that those who follow behind him have an easier journey and don't have to re-invent the wheel all over again.
It's kind of silly to assume that you could "awaken" to your enlightened state just by venerating the teacher, though. That's like watching another person eat an omelette, and then claiming that you're not hungry anymore because he's already eaten on your behalf.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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I don't care what they might think of that. Why should I?

What they might think wouldn't make my conclusions about what modern people need incorrect.

Well put!

There's far too much of a tacit (or sometimes not so tacit) demand for unearned respect when it comes to ancient world views with outdated morals and conceptions of reality. The only reason we still extend so much courtesy to these ideologies is because people identify so strongly with them that criticism feels like a personal attack to them.
But I think people ought to wake up and realize that criticizing world views is a VITAL part of testing them for truthfulness. Living secure in one's misconceptions might be comforting, but it doesn't encourage personal progress.
 
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Yoder777

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There is FAR more money to be made with authoritarian "personality cult"-type religions than with "try this for yourself and see if it works"-approaches. In fact, it's one of the defining characteristics of what's commonly called a "cult".

Actually, in the West, millions of dollars have been made selling books and offering meditation classes specifically for people looking for a secular approach to Buddhism. Are you aware of this or not? What you are saying is not true when it comes to the success of secular Buddhism.


Please tell me what you know about Pure Land Buddhism and then please tell me what your primary sources are. I would really appreciate it. What you are saying is clearly a misrepresentation of what Pure Land Buddhists believe and why they believe it.
 
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nightflight

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You'd probably be better informed if you weren't trying to learn Buddhism on your own. You'd still be encouraged to ultimately think and decide for yourself, but you'd at least have better information to make a decision.

I wasn't learning it "on my own". I belonged to several online discussions groups, one a modernist, one a more traditional.

Again and again, I have explained to you the meaning of Amida Buddha and entrusting in him, and again and again you evade the issue. Will you not even listen to Shinran himself, and yet you claim to have been a Shin Buddhist??? -

And again and again (and yes, again) I have explained to you that I CANNOT believe in a literal Amida Buddha.

What Shin Buddhist texts have you actually read? You can't just read some Wikipedia articles, never belong to an actual temple, and then claim that Shin Buddhism just didn't work for you.

Sigh. I gave you a book list above, a list which included the Tannisho. For crying out loud how much does a person have to know about this in order to make an "informed" decision? Did Shinran demand university degrees from the poor fishermen and farmers he preached to?

To put is simply, very, very simply, I tried Shin Buddhism and it didn't do it for me.
 
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