Broken Vows

Jane_Doe · Dec 21, 2017

Him actually viewing pornography isn't the biggest issue here. The bigger issue is the lack of a shared faith in many areas. Like, whether or not there's common ground on "viewing pornography is evil and it is cheating", and "whether or not a Christian should follow the 10 Commandments", etc.

Now, it is entirely possible to be in a successful marriage where people have non-identical faiths (I'm in such a one myself). But it is a lot of work, requires lot of communication, and self-awareness. That's why I'm recommending professional counseling-- to help you work through these challenges, and greatly increase the probability of your marriage being happy and successful.

DZoolander · Dec 21, 2017

But what do you do when there's that degree of disconnect? Where it requires effort to get someone to understand something as basic as "don't pursue my friends"? Where apparently they're making allowances for that kind of nonsense in advance? lol

Jane_Doe · Dec 21, 2017

DZoolander said:
But what do you do when there's that degree of disconnect? Where it requires effort to get someone to understand something as basic as "don't pursue my friends"? Where apparently they're making allowances for that kind of nonsense in advance? lol

I think the probably of this marriage succeeding withOUT professional counseling to be extremely extremely low, precisely because of that and many many other examples. With professional counseling there is small chance.

DZoolander · Dec 21, 2017

For example...I remember when I was 21(ish). I had been dating this girl for about a year. We went to this party one night with a group of her friends - and I got pretty drunk. On the drive home, I remember thinking "Her friend is kinda hot".

I also remember chastising myself for having that thought. Not because it was immoral religiously. Not because of some external moral ideas...but rather because I just knew that was tacky. I wasn't even married to the girl - and I knew it was wrong.

Heck - 17 years later I still kinda bristle at the idea that the thought even crossed my mind while drunk.

This guy is making allowances for that kinda stuff. lol

Dave-W · Dec 21, 2017

Jane_Doe said:
I think the probably of this marriage succeeding withOUT professional counseling to be extremely extremely low, precisely because of that and many many other examples. With professional counseling there is small chance.

Agreed.

Endeavourer · Dec 21, 2017

Jane_Doe said:
I think the probably of this marriage succeeding withOUT professional counseling to be extremely extremely low, precisely because of that and many many other examples. With professional counseling there is small chance.

Professional counseling is only appropriate when two parties want to follow it. I would urge the OP to not bother until her husband shows an interest in wanting to behave. She **can't** make him want to behave. That has to come from him. Counseling until then will just run up the bills and create a high frustration for the OP. It will be like diligently shoveling sand against the tide with your heart exposed to the elements.

@DZoolander hits a lot of great points about needing a certain level of desire to behave. Great advice.

The sexual addictions are really ALL on him; she was very clear that her marriage to him was on the condition of not having such addictions. He lied and her agreement was therefore deceptively gained. His behavior is beyond a porn addiction.

DesiringGodsBest · Dec 21, 2017

NothingIsImpossible said:
While obviously he has some bigger issues then just porn, I do think telling him he has to be free from porn or else (essentially) is really harsh. I'm not saying you should accept the porn issue he has, but I am saying telling an addict to instantly stop something is like telling a 90mph car to stop on a dime. Addiction is a very deep issue with the brain. Its VERY hard to break most addictions. Drugs, drinking, lying, gambling....etc. For some it takes years if not their whole life to truly be free of an addiction. Because all it takes is one crack in their armor and the devil pulls them back into the addiction.

Like I said though he has bigger issues than just the porn issue. Especially since you two can't agree on many theological issues. This can kill a marriage quick. That and saying he wants different vows. Silly question since your obviously already married but had you two talked about your theological views before marriage? That could have saved alot of hurt on your end.

We were friends for 9 years before we entered into a relationship. Through that time, he saw me go through other heartbreaking situations in another relationship. He knew that I would not stand for adultery, whether it be porn or any other form. He pursued me for a very long time, and I wouldn't be with him earlier on because I told him that I knew he had struggled with porn and I did not want it in my life. Porn has demonic influence on how men view and treat women. It is damaging on more than one level, and yes, it does rewire the brain. However, I HAVE seen people heal from this addiction and God has rewired their brains. When I finally decided to be in a relationship with him, he was so different than what he had been like before. He was more mature. More grounded. More respectful. And seemed to be much deeper into the Word. He told me that he had been completely freed from it for more than a year and that he was never going back. I made it so very clear that I didn't want to even pursue anything more than friendship if he was willing to go back to the former ways. Fast forward to after he was found out, then at last he admitted that he was intentionally deceitful when he told me that he only had eyes for me and that he no longer was in bondage to lust of the flesh. He knew that he was going after my friends online at that time, and lusting after them. I couldn't have known that at the time. And yet he went so far as to participate in that ceremony with me to commemorate his freedom and turning from that way of death. I wasn't so much trusting in him, but in God's fulfillment of His promise to me - that he would give me a loaf of bread and not a stone when I prayed for a faithful husband. In no way did God fail me, but my husband sure has. In fact, as he was looking for my engagement ring, he was also looking at pictures of my friend, the one that he was trying to get a job with. The one that he had developed an "unhealthy lustful interest" in. He actually told me that it had become a "David and Bethsheba" thing for him, though he never actually had a physical relationship with her. The issue does go deeper than porn, it goes to his whole view of women at this point, and I cannot have any real intimacy with, or trust for, this man as a result. I led a small group and had to stop serving in this capacity because he was lusting after a girl in the group.

DZoolander said:
That's a lot of nonsense to go through in just a few months of marriage and as a result I tend to be on the side of the people who are advising you to leave.

The fact that he's trying to excuse his nonsense by saying that "everyone's a sinner" is garbage. The fact he's trying to excuse future crap by modifying the vows to account for expected future behaviors is also garbage.

These things are so BASIC that I'm not all that optimistic about marriage therapy, either. I mean, do you really NEED to walk someone through the steps of why it's inappropriate to pursue your wife's friend? And really, what hope is there to actually fix things if someone needs that explained to them? If they're really that far on the selfish side of the scale?

I'd get while the getting is good. Check into an annulment.

That's one of the biggest concerns that I have... that he hasn't honored his vows since he made them, and now he wants to change them because they are "impossible" for him to keep. He should not have married me from the start. These things ARE so very basic, and it makes me wonder what on earth happened to his moral compass? It is supposed to be grounded in the Word. Not that any of us are perfect, but God provides direction to stay on His path and a way out of temptation... every time! Vows are simply telling the person you will CHOOSE God's way each time temptation arises. If he can't promise that, then what kind of marriage is there here?

I'm not sure if annulment is an option, but I will look into it. We were married by a nondenominational Christian pastor.

DZoolander · Dec 21, 2017

Agree with @Endeavourer on this one.

My wife and I have a running joke over the years - where if we do something boneheaded - we tell the other one "don't give me a hard time about it - I'm already scolding myself".

For therapy to go anywhere - you need to have that sense of scolding yourself already - and the therapy is to assist you in finding the tools to fix whatever problem there may be.

Endeavourer · Dec 21, 2017

DZoolander said:
The fact that he's trying to excuse his nonsense by saying that "everyone's a sinner" is garbage. The fact he's trying to excuse future crap by modifying the vows to account for expected future behaviors is also garbage.

^^This.^^ Read up on this tactic that abusers use. They wear the "shock" off you until you are acquiescing to their carrying out of their behaviors.

For more information, read this blog about a woman who was married to a sex criminal for 40 years and didn't see anything coming in spite of increasingly blatant behavior:
Chosen to be a Child Molester’s Enabler: The Beginning of My Story

DZoolander said:
I tend to have different views on pornography than a lot of other people on here do (like I don't personally give it the weight of infidelity that others do) - but this goes beyond that type of difference of opinion. He's doing things to pursue your friends. That's a whole different level. It's one thing to perhaps get a random thought and go "Hey, I shouldn't be thinking that" and take active steps in your inner monologue to avoid it in the future. It's quite another to say "Well, that's just how I am, deal with it."

^^This!!!^^ If you read Clara Hinton's story this conditioning he is doing to you will become clearer to you.

DZoolander said:
These things are so BASIC that I'm not all that optimistic about marriage therapy, either. I mean, do you really NEED to walk someone through the steps of why it's inappropriate to pursue your wife's friend? And really, what hope is there to actually fix things if someone needs that explained to them? If they're really that far on the selfish side of the scale?

Agree. His intention and behavior is purposeful. He deceived you into the marriage against your very clearly stated condition. If you accept that, and the leering at your friends, he'll know you'll accept anything. His deeds will grow from there.
Exactly.

DZoolander · Dec 21, 2017

Yeah. I tend to get into disagreements with people on here about porn. I don't so much argue that people ought accept it - because I think everyone is entitled to set their own standards and porn does walk a weird grey line. But, I do also argue that it's *not* in a class with infidelity for specific reasons - and that people make more of it than the offender intends it to be.

But this is something entirely different.

Jane_Doe · Dec 21, 2017

Endeavourer said:
Professional counseling is only appropriate when two parties want to follow it. I would urge the OP to not bother until her husband shows an interest in wanting to behave. She **can't** make him want to behave. That has to come from him. Counseling until then will just run up the bills and create a high frustration for the OP. It will be like diligently shoveling sand against the tide with your heart exposed to the elements.

@DZoolander hits a lot of great points about needing a certain level of desire to behave. Great advice.

The sexual addictions are really ALL on him; she was very clear that her marriage to him was on the condition of not having such addictions. He lied and her agreement was therefore deceptively gained. His behavior is beyond a porn addiction.

I agree that she can't make him behave, that it is 100% his choice. Part of the purpose of professional counseling is to encourage him that such behavior changes are necessary (both for the good side and seeing the negative consequences if it doesn't change). If he's not willing to listen to his wife, professional counselor, or pastor... things don't look good.

DZoolander · Dec 21, 2017

When I was in my 20's I was briefly married, and in a certain way, it was kind of similar to your situation where I had a spouse that was doing things that I thought were an affront to our marriage. We had dated for about 6.5 years before getting married - and the marriage lasted about a year and a half before I divorced her.

Long story short - she got involved in the BDSM community - which I was totally not interested in. After it became clear that she wasn't going to stop - I divorced her.

Later, the question was asked (by her and a few other people) why I didn't stick around and fight for the marriage...or give it more time...or give her more ultimatums...or this...or that. Truthfully - the way I handled it is I made it clear to her on a few occasions that I found that behavior completely unacceptable and that it would end our marriage. When it continued, I followed through and ended it.

I didn't go any further into it than that - I didn't make it some long drawn out process - etc. I told her how I felt and let her do what she wanted to do. Why? Because I resented the idea that I needed to explain to someone why those behaviors were unacceptable. I resented the idea that something so basic needed to be hashed over and proven to someone for them to "accept" it. Did I want that as a spouse? No.

So when I say that "do you really want to have to explain something so basic", I sympathize.

DesiringGodsBest · Dec 21, 2017

DZoolander said:
For example...I remember when I was 21(ish). I had been dating this girl for about a year. We went to this party one night with a group of her friends - and I got pretty drunk. On the drive home, I remember thinking "Her friend is kinda hot".

I also remember chastising myself for having that thought. Not because it was immoral religiously. Not because of some external moral ideas...but rather because I just knew that was tacky. I wasn't even married to the girl - and I knew it was wrong.

Heck - 17 years later I still kinda bristle at the idea that the thought even crossed my mind while drunk.

This guy is making allowances for that kinda stuff. lol

That is exactly the kind of conviction that he is lacking! To me, it is also very basic! If you think something that you shouldn't be thinking, you repent of it and don't allow yourself to continue thinking it. He completely lacks that basic moral compass.

Endeavourer · Dec 21, 2017

DZoolander said:
Yeah. I tend to get into disagreements with people on here about porn. I don't so much argue that people ought accept it - because I think everyone is entitled to set their own standards and porn does walk a weird grey line. But, I do also argue that it's *not* in a class with infidelity for specific reasons - and that people make more of it than the offender intends it to be.

But this is something entirely different.

I would agree that there is a time to not cry "infidelity" with porn, but then there is also that time. I believe it has to be to each woman's conscience on where that line is. They alone know how it affects the marriage. When it affects the marriage, to my conscience, that line is crossed. It affects some women quicker than others.

The line for me would be quite low because of my life experiences. Some other women might not feel affected as quickly and have a higher line.

Edited to add: My advice is not based on my own personal line. It's based on the preponderance of his behaviors. The OP knows where her line is and quite clearly communicated that to him upfront.

DesiringGodsBest · Dec 21, 2017

DZoolander said:
Yeah. I tend to get into disagreements with people on here about porn. I don't so much argue that people ought accept it - because I think everyone is entitled to set their own standards and porn does walk a weird grey line. But, I do also argue that it's *not* in a class with infidelity for specific reasons - and that people make more of it than the offender intends it to be.

But this is something entirely different.

You have a lot of good things to say... but I do have to disagree with you on this one. Porn is extremely damaging and it is a product of Hades. There have been so many studies on the affects of porn, even from very secular institutions, which all confirm that it rewires the brain and changes the way the person connects with others, views women, and creates very unrealistic expectations. It is also inherently selfish and self-seeking. It is the exact opposite of God's design for marriage and sex, and it has no place in a marriage. It defiles the marital bed just as a physical affair would.

DesiringGodsBest · Dec 21, 2017

To me, allowing a little bit of porn is like allowing a little bit of poison in my water.

Endeavourer · Dec 21, 2017

Jane_Doe said:
I agree that she can't make him behave, that it is 100% his choice. Part of the purpose of professional counseling is to encourage him that such behavior changes are necessary (both for the good side and seeing the negative consequences if it doesn't change). If he's not willing to listen to his wife, professional counselor, or pastor... things don't look good.

Changes are necessary because his behavior hurts his wife. Full stop. That's all that's necessary. She has already let him know this very clearly. It's hard to be any more direct and clear than she was.

In her case, since his behaviors that hurt his wife, which he refuses to stop, involve extramarital sexual immorality, she has been gifted with Biblical grounds to end the marriage.

DesiringGodsBest · Dec 21, 2017

DZoolander said:
Long story short - she got involved in the BDSM community - which I was totally not interested in. After it became clear that she wasn't going to stop - I divorced her.
---
So when I say that "do you really want to have to explain something so basic", I sympathize.

OH MY. I'm sorry that you went through that. I had a roommate in college transform from a sweet, gentle girl to a very loathful, angry person when she got into that stuff. I believe that, just like porn, comes straight from Hades. It is demonic Ba'al worship disguised as sexual curiosity and experimentation.

Endeavourer · Dec 21, 2017

DesiringGodsBest said:
You have a lot of good things to say... but I do have to disagree with you on this one. Porn is extremely damaging and it is a product of Hades. There have been so many studies on the affects of porn, even from very secular institutions, which all confirm that it rewires the brain and changes the way the person connects with others, views women, and creates very unrealistic expectations. It is also inherently selfish and self-seeking. It is the exact opposite of God's design for marriage and sex, and it has no place in a marriage. It defiles the marital bed just as a physical affair would.

In this, I am more aligned with you than with @DZoolander. It can create irreconcilable problems in the intimate dance of marriages.

Here is an interesting article written from the perspective of a Christian psychologist who has studied behaviors in marriages and their effects. Everything he advises is based on his observations of what works or not, based on experience and research with 10,000's of couples.

The Scourge of Pornography by Willard F. Harley, Jr.

DZoolander · Dec 21, 2017

Oh I don't ever argue that people ought accept porn or that porn is healthy.

My point is always quibbling over the "infidelity" label people attach to it...lol

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