Brokeback Mountain

[Arnold_Philips]

The causes are a lifestyle that woefully lacks self-discipline

This makes no sense. The "lifestyle", meaning lots of butt sex and crystal meth (obviously), is caused by the lifestyle? Which is... uh, butt sex and crystal meth? The lifestyle causes the lifestyle... I'm sure you see the problem here.

and goes against the flow of nature.

You're going uphill here. Homosexuality is by definition natural, since it occurs in nature in various species. This has nothing to do with the morality of it, but just the nature of homosexuality.

I'm not against tolerance because of a drag show, I'm against people claiming to be about tolerance when it's not. It's about expanding the homosexual culture.

And how exactly is that intolerant? And how are the actions of this one group on your particular campus indicative of the character of all groups promoting tolerance for GLBT people?

I said decent heterosexual couples keep sex in the bedroom. There's nothing decent about strip clubs, swinger parties, and the like.

And what do decent homosexual couples do? Knock on your door and go at it on your front porch?

Well, if you truly are born again you should not identify yourself as gay anymore, as you have a new identity:

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Born-again believers are forgiven, and their sins are washed away so they are not counted against them anymore. So, yes we should deny the sinful parts of our past lives, rather than embrace them. To embrace them is spit in Jesus' face, as He died to remove your sins from you. I don't claim to be perfect by any means, I am a sinner saved by grace. But I can't just let people claim they can continue to sin for whatever reason without speaking up.

I'm happy to leave the judging up to God.

 

[Sketcher]

Wrong.

Your self discipline remark can be thrown out, because you're painting with a broad brush. Not surprising in the least.

Look at the stats I posted earlier.

However, homosexuality IS seen in nature. Various primates actively practice homosexuality amongst each other. Therefore, it IS natural no matter how much you want to deny it. Unless you feel those apes have free will? I look forward to your answer.

Nature itself became corrupt because of the fall of man. Besides, we're focusing on human behavior, so let's limit it to humans. A basic understanding of the human sex organs shows that they were made for each other. However, the anus is not one of them.

You cannot "expand" it. To suggest that means they can recruit people. I will never be homosexual, I find the thought of being with another man absolutely disgusting--but im not pompous or arrogant enough to tell them its wrong.

The worst of them do recruit young boys, but that's another point. Part of their culture is drag shows, which they promote. Thus they are looking to expand their culture by making drag shows morally acceptable. There's a huge difference between a gay couple that tells me they're gay and leave it at that, and gay people making their behavior public, such as advertising drag shows.

Keep the stereotypes flowing. Its not like us straight guys dont have strip clubs and swinger parties. Think before you post please.

Read my post again and think before posting yourself. I said straight people have strip clubs and swinger parties. I never said that such straight people were decent.

Another brush off statement, "jesus will set you freee". You're pretending you understand homosexuality--which you dont--and therefore what you say is pretty much a moot point.

I know what the Bible says about homosexuality, and the Bible has proven itself right time and again on various subjects in my life personally. I have sinful thoughts all the time, I know it's against my instincts to obey Scripture rather than carry them out. But it's something I need to do nonetheless. Christians who are tempted with homosexuality have to do the same thing, I'm just treating all sins as equal.

Good, then you agree that homosexuals can be saved by grace and thus will not go to hell.

If they decide to be saved by grace, yes. Renouncing homosexuality is part of following Jesus, He helps you clean up your act AFTER you come to Him. You don't become a good person before Jesus will accept you, it doesn't work that way.

 

[Fireball1244]

One does not have to renounce their sexuality in order to follow Jesus.

 

[Sketcher]

This makes no sense. The "lifestyle", meaning lots of butt sex and crystal meth (obviously), is caused by the lifestyle? Which is... uh, butt sex and crystal meth? The lifestyle causes the lifestyle... I'm sure you see the problem here.

The lifestyle begins with a decision to participate a little bit, then you get roped into more and more. It eventually becomes a deadly cycle. All addictions start that way, a compromise of values and the abandonment of discipline.

You're going uphill here. Homosexuality is by definition natural, since it occurs in nature in various species. This has nothing to do with the morality of it, but just the nature of homosexuality.

See my most recent post to Halruaa, I dealt with it there.

And how exactly is that intolerant? And how are the actions of this one group on your particular campus indicative of the character of all groups promoting tolerance for GLBT people?

All of the gay activists I have seen or heard are similar to this in nature. And branding me a bigot because I find the lifestyle disgusting is intolerant. Tolerance requires some common courtesy here.

And what do decent homosexual couples do? Knock on your door and go at it on your front porch?

If a homosexual couple is going to be decent about it, they're not going to flaunt their relationship out of respect for the many people who are turned off by homosexuality. If I flew to India tomorrow, you'd bet I'd keep my love for hamburgers under wraps.

I'm happy to leave the judging up to God.

Judging behavior and judging people are two different animals. Besides, I posted the entirety of what God has to say about the homosexual issue in those Bible verses. It's unacceptable, but can be forgiven if you ask and you won't be identified with it anymore.

 

[Sketcher]

One does not have to renounce their sexuality in order to follow Jesus. I know more decent, loving gay Christians than I do decent, loving fundamentalist Christians.

That's like saying I don't have to renounce my genetically inherited short temper in order to follow Jesus. That's like saying I can follow Jesus and have sex with as many women as I want.

 

[Fireball1244]

How do homosexuals "flaunt" our relationships? Is it "flaunting" for me to mention my partner in passing conversation? Is it "flaunting" for us to have a romantic dinner in a restaurant? Is it "flaunting" for us to sit together in church, to go up together for communion? Is it "flaunting" for us to hold hands when we walk down the block?

Is it "flaunting" for my friends who have kids to go pick up the kids together from school? Is it "flaunting" for them to sit as a family in the airplane on the way to a vacation?

 

[Arnold_Philips]

Nature itself became corrupt because of the fall of man. Besides, we're focusing on human behavior, so let's limit it to humans. A basic understanding of the human sex organs shows that they were made for each other. However, the anus is not one of them.

Another losing battle you're fighting. If you're going to condemn anal sex, you should be consistent in condmening all maladaptive bahaviors, like kissing, as lips weren't made for that, and drinking diet coke, since it provides no nutrients.

Additionally, homosexuals really aren't the ones you should be pointing your finger at when it comes to anal sex. Though gay males engage in the practice at a greater rate, they are a miniscule percentage of the population, meaning that heterosexuals are the primary culprit. Heterosexuals (even good, Christian ones) are the ones buying most of the tickets for the A-train.

The worst of them do recruit young boys, but that's another point.

WHAT???

I can let you slide with misinformation about STDs, death rates, and the like. But you are DEFINITELY going to have to back this harmful myth up. You're literally one step away from calling us all pedophiles.

Part of their culture is drag shows, which they promote. Thus they are looking to expand their culture by making drag shows morally acceptable.

Who says that they're trying to make it morally acceptable? It's done because it's fun and people enjoy seeing it. And it would benefit you to know that gays aren't the only ones on stage and in the audience.

There's a huge difference between a gay couple that tells me they're gay and leave it at that, and gay people making their behavior public, such as advertising drag shows.

For one, how is a drag show advertising a particular gay couple? That makes no sense unless it were a couples routine or the place were owned by the couple...

But besides that, what would be acceptable to you for a gay couple to do? Are we allowed to hold hands in your presence? kiss? take care of our kids? appear at a social function together? And why should we even do what you want us to do? And why are heterosexuals not constricted by the same rules? And, bringing it back to the original issue, how are these actions related to tolerance?

I know what the Bible says about homosexuality,

Correction: you know what you think the Bible says about homosexuality

If they decide to be saved by grace, yes. Renouncing homosexuality is part of following Jesus, He helps you clean up your act AFTER you come to Him. You don't become a good person before Jesus will accept you, it doesn't work that way.

Some may become celibate or have a sham marriage, but there is no evidence that one can completely change.

 

[Arnold_Philips]

The lifestyle begins with a decision to participate a little bit, then you get roped into more and more. It eventually becomes a deadly cycle. All addictions start that way, a compromise of values and the abandonment of discipline.

So who is at fault then? And what is to be done to help the people suffering from their bad decisions?

All of the gay activists I have seen or heard are similar to this in nature. And branding me a bigot because I find the lifestyle disgusting is intolerant. Tolerance requires some common courtesy here.

So what do you expect of gay activists? And why is it wrong for a gay rights org. to support drag shows?

If a homosexual couple is going to be decent about it, they're not going to flaunt their relationship out of respect for the many people who are turned off by homosexuality. If I flew to India tomorrow, you'd bet I'd keep my love for hamburgers under wraps.

And why should it be that they are disgusted by homosexuality? It would seem that it's their problem to deal with, and not one of common decency and tact.

 

[Sketcher]

Another losing battle you're fighting. If you're going to condemn anal sex, you should be consistent in condmening all maladaptive bahaviors, like kissing, as lips weren't made for that, and drinking diet coke, since it provides no nutrients.

Additionally, homosexuals really aren't the ones you should be pointing your finger at when it comes to anal sex. Though gay males engage in the practice at a greater rate, they are a miniscule percentage of the population, meaning that heterosexuals are the primary culprit. Heterosexuals (even good, Christian ones) are the ones buying most of the tickets for the A-train.

I find the whole concept of anal sex disgusting, even if it's with a woman. Lips were made for kissing, but that's for a man and a woman only.

WHAT???

I can let you slide with misinformation about STDs, death rates, and the like. But you are DEFINITELY going to have to back this harmful myth up. You're literally one step away from calling us all pedophiles.

I said the WORST of them. Not all of them. If even one homosexual did that, would it not make him the worst of all homosexuals?

As for an example, there was a man who before he became a Christian was a male prostitute and recruited boys for the business. I'll get the book with parts of his story later.

Who says that they're trying to make it morally acceptable? It's done because it's fun and people enjoy seeing it. And it would benefit you to know that gays aren't the only ones on stage and in the audience.

Fine, straight women who get amusement from it do it too. But I find it repulsive. Strip clubs sometimes feature women going at it, to the amusement of straight males. That's not right either, but if that sort of thing were advertised on a campus as the drag shows were here, there would be an outcry.

For one, how is a drag show advertising a particular gay couple? That makes no sense unless it were a couples routine or the place were owned by the couple...

I never said they did, the two examples I gave were totally different.

But besides that, what would be acceptable to you for a gay couple to do? Are we allowed to hold hands in your presence? kiss? take care of our kids? appear at a social function together?

First, gay couples should not adopt children because children need one mother and one father. Second, the very nature of homosexuality is disgusting to me, and the vast majority of the population, so we don't want to see any of it.

And why should we even do what you want us to do?

No common courtesy, I see.

And why are heterosexuals not constricted by the same rules?

Heterosexuality is appropriate human sexuality.

And, bringing it back to the original issue, how are these actions related to tolerance?

Gay pride is not about tolerance, otherwise it would be tolerant of other people's morals.

Correction: you know what you think the Bible says about homosexuality

What the Bible says about it is plain and obvious. You can try to do mental gymnastics around it to justify the behavior, but I hope you'll see the truth before the end.

Some may become celibate or have a sham marriage, but there is no evidence that one can completely change.

I'll let you talk to former gays about that. You can change and embrace self control if you really want to.

 

[beechy]

twistedsketch,

If by "flaunting" my same-sex relationship you mean by not hiding it, then I think your suggestion is unreasonable. This is not India, it's America, and I'm a tax paying, law abiding American citizen. I live with my partner. Should I pretend that I don't in order to make you comfortable? We fully intend to have children, should only one of us attend their parent teacher conferences in order to make you comfortable? And as for the disgusting part, my experience has been quite the opposite. If I hold my partner's hand or otherwise express affection for her in a bar, club, or even walking down the street (we're both women), we are often descended upon by hooting, googling straight men wanting a piece of the action.

 

[Scally Cap]

Have a merry Christmas there, twistedsketch. Godspeed, Arnold. I'm outta here.

 

[Sketcher]

If by "flaunting" my same-sex relationship you mean by not hiding it, then I think your suggestion is unreasonable. This is not India, it's America, and I'm a tax paying, law abiding American citizen. I live with my partner. Should I pretend that I don't in order to make you comfortable? We fully intend to have children, should only one of us attend their parent teacher conferences in order to make you comfortable?

You're missing the point. What would make me comfortable would be you and your partner repenting of your sin. Just like the way drunkards, hetero fornicators, theives, liars, etc would make me comfortable - turning from their sins and following Jesus.

 

[beechy]

You're missing the point. What would make me comfortable would be you and your partner repenting of your sin. Just like the way drunkards, hetero fornicators, theives, liars, etc would make me comfortable - turning from their sins and following Jesus.

It is not my responsibility to live my life in a way that makes you comfortable. I don't think what I'm doing is a sin (another debate for another thread).

 

[Sketcher]

It is not my responsibility to live my life in a way that makes you comfortable. I don't think what I'm doing is a sin (another debate for another thread).

That's the truth wed to a lie. Gay pride and common decency are in hopeless conflict.

 

[Sketcher]

Have a merry Christmas there, twistedsketch.

Thanks, and Merry Christmas to you.

 

[beechy]

That's the truth wed to a lie. Gay pride and common decency are in hopeless conflict.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Our relationship is entirely decent.

 

[Arnold_Philips]

Godspeed, Arnold.

You betcha.

 

[Sketcher]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Our relationship is entirely decent.

You have a different definition of decent than I do. If people are going to be in a homosexual relationship, I'd prefer "don't ask, don't tell." But I'd much rather that homosexuals convert and leave their sin in the dust.

 

[Arnold_Philips]

I find the whole concept of anal sex disgusting, even if it's with a woman.

Then don't do it and leave those who want to do it alone. Their having anal sex hurts you in no way.

Lips were made for kissing, but that's for a man and a woman only.

Because male and female lips are different how?

Lips are not designed for kissing. They are for eating, articulating, and expressing emotion. Kissing is only a fortunate side effect of their anatomy.

I said the WORST of them. Not all of them. If even one homosexual did that, would it not make him the worst of all homosexuals?

As for an example, there was a man who before he became a Christian was a male prostitute and recruited boys for the business. I'll get the book with parts of his story later.

You made it sound like it was the norm. A male prostitute is certainly not the norm.

Fine, straight women who get amusement from it do it too. But I find it repulsive. Strip clubs sometimes feature women going at it, to the amusement of straight males. That's not right either, but if that sort of thing were advertised on a campus as the drag shows were here, there would be an outcry.

This all sounds like a personal problem.

First, gay couples should not adopt children because children need one mother and one father.

There is no real difference. "[T] here is a considerable body of professional literature that suggests children with parents who are homosexual have the same advantages and the same expectations for health, adjustment and development as children whose parents are heterosexual."
http://www.aap.org/advocacy/archives/febsamesex.htm

Second, the very nature of homosexuality is disgusting to me, and the vast majority of the population, so we don't want to see any of it.

And what if the majority of the population didn't like to see black people around white people?

No common courtesy, I see.

It's not a matter of courtesy. By mere whim, supported only by your personal prejudices, you're trying to dictate how others should act.

Heterosexuality is appropriate human sexuality.

This is the most bigoted statement you've made today, even surpassing the implication of gays as recruiters. Homosexuality is perfectly normal. It appears at a constant rate everywhere regardless of color or creed. It is as appropriate as any other sexuality, thank you.

Gay pride is not about tolerance, otherwise it would be tolerant of other people's morals.

We do tolerate your morals though. No one's forcing you to stop believing what you do. On the contrary, you advocate suppressing the ability of gay couples to display their relationships in public, denying them the right to adopt, and generally being a moral dictator.

What the Bible says about it is plain and obvious. You can try to do mental gymnastics around it to justify the behavior, but I hope you'll see the truth before the end.

Lots of things in the Bible are plain and obvious: slavery, genocide, subjugation of women. When it comes down to it, bigots would still be bigoted with or without the Bible to support them.

I'll let you talk to former gays about that. You can change and embrace self control if you really want to.

And you know what about gays and ex-gays because you've been gay for how long?

 

[Arnold_Philips]

You have a different definition of decent than I do. If people are going to be in a homosexual relationship, I'd prefer "don't ask, don't tell." But I'd much rather that homosexuals convert and leave their sin in the dust.

And again, why should they be secretive about their relationships? And what evidence do you have to show that conversion therapies are nothing more than scams?