Brokeback Mountain

[Arnold_Philips]

You must have a very dim view of heterosexual relationships if there is any honesty to that statement. The vast majority of homosexuals are far from monogamous. The situation they're in, which is filled with casual sex, drugs, STD, depression and suicide needs to be looked at with pity - and the rigors of the homosexual lifestyle are to blame for most of it. Look at it this way: The amountof children who die or get injured from sticking their fingers into light sockets is appaling. So should we discourage the behavior they're doing that hurts them, or encourage them to keep doing it?

Yes, there are problems with the gay community. Promiscuity, drug abuse, carelessness with the body, suicide, and so on. Is this because they are homosexual though? Of course not. They're symptoms of a group of people that are stigmatized and tormented by moral bullies. Maybe if you chose to help them and treat the causes of the symptoms, and not spew hatred and misinformation, then you would be fulfilling Christ's command of helping the "least of these brothers of mine."

 

[Arnold_Philips]

And yes, I've seen the movie. It was excellent and I'd definitely see it again. There wasn't as much sex as I thought there'd be (which was personally disappointing), but that fact was overshadowed by the other numerous strengths of the film. It was artfully directed and the acting (esp. Heath Ledger and Michelle Williams) was fantastic.

 

[Sketcher]

Yes, there are problems with the gay community. Promiscuity, drug abuse, carelessness with the body, suicide, and so on. Is this because they are homosexual though? Of course not. They're symptoms of a group of people that are stigmatized and tormented by moral bullies. Maybe if you chose to help them and treat the causes of the symptoms, and not spew hatred and misinformation, then you would be fulfilling Christ's command of helping the "least of these brothers of mine."

So it's not the lifestyle that has the problem, but the Word of God. I see where you're coming from.

 

[Arnold_Philips]

So it's not the lifestyle that has the problem, but the Word of God. I see where you're coming from.

No, that's not at all what I was saying and I'd appreciate if you'd 1) not put words in my mouth, and 2) respond to my post dutifully.

 

[MRGUK]

So it's not the lifestyle that has the problem, but the Word of God. I see where you're coming from.

No.

It's the way people use "the Word of God".

Do you honestly, truly think that a lot of gay people would still be depressed if they didn't have people telling them about their imminent destiny of hellfire and damnation 24/7?

Or would they still be depressed if they weren't shunned in general by society, family and friends?

(Hint: no)

 

[Sketcher]

You said the reason for everything that's wrong with the homsexual community isn't because they're homosexuals, but because they're stigmatized by "moral bullies." In other words, their lifestyle isn't the problem, the ethic that homosexuality is unacceptable is the problem. That ethic comes from the Word of God, hence the Word of God is the problem. I didn't put any words in your mouth, sir.

 

[Sketcher]

No.

It's the way people use "the Word of God".

Do you honestly, truly think that a lot of gay people would still be depressed if they didn't have people telling them about their imminent destiny of hellfire and damnation 24/7?

Or would they still be depressed if they weren't shunned in general by society, family and friends?

(Hint: no)

So if only people would accept homosexuality as morally OK, homosexuals would begin to live stable and monogamous lifestyles?

Look, I'm not a fan of violence against gays by any means. But wrong behavior is wrong behavior and popular opinion will never change that. Yes, homosexuals are going to hell. Jesus also died to save them from hell, they just need to put their homosexuality on the chopping block, along with their other sins. That's the way Christianity works, Jesus died for you, you can accept Him just as you are, but you need to FOLLOW HIM afterwards. That means renouncing the behavior that made you a sinner in the first place.

 

[Arnold_Philips]

You said the reason for everything that's wrong with the homsexual community isn't because they're homosexuals, but because they're stigmatized by "moral bullies." In other words, their lifestyle isn't the problem, the ethic that homosexuality is unacceptable is the problem. That ethic comes from the Word of God, hence the Word of God is the problem. I didn't put any words in your mouth, sir.

Okay, then I apologize for saying you did.

But you still misunderstood what I said. There exist problems in the homosexual community for various reasons, one of them being that they are villified near-universally. If you're growing up hearing that you'll die at 42, that you can't get married, that you're asecond-class citizen, that you're going to hell, that you're a abnormality and an abomination. What do you think happens? You don't take a dump in your cereal and expect it to be delicious. The lifestyle stems from how they're treated by society (in part at least).

It's not because the Word of God. There are Christians who aren't moral bullies and still find homosexuality to be a sin. They're not utter jerks about it.

 

[Arnold_Philips]

So if only people would accept homosexuality as morally OK, homosexuals would begin to live stable and monogamous lifestyles?

You don't have to abdicate your beliefs, but if you simply stop treating us like dirt it would definitely help. If you want to stem promiscuity, then promote healthy images of stable, monogamous (read: married) gay couples. Be more supportive of kids having problems; tell your own kids that calling another "gay" or "fagg*t" is rude and harmful. You could do a lot better than decrying the "sinful lifestyle" (or whatever fantasy you have in mind) of the gay community.

Look, I'm not a fan of violence against gays by any means. But wrong behavior is wrong behavior and popular opinion will never change that. Yes, homosexuals are going to hell. Jesus also died to save them from hell, they just need to put their homosexuality on the chopping block, along with their other sins. That's the way Christianity works, Jesus died for you, you can accept Him just as you are, but you need to FOLLOW HIM afterwards. That means renouncing the behavior that made you a sinner in the first place.

And the best way to do that is by doing what?

 

[wanderingone]

So I guess this means we're not allowed to have a thread about Brokeback mountain that is actually about the MOVIE?

Cause there already are a couple threads around here somewhere about brokeback mountain.. I'm going to see it tomorrow night with my older daughter when I get to NY.. it'd be nice to discuss the ACTUAL movie rather than yet another gay is okay gay is evil thread...

MOD HAT ON:

Please be reminded that any discussion of homosexuality needs to take place in either:

1) Ethics & Morality,
2) Liberal Theology, or
3) Christian Philosophy

per rule 4.2:
===================================
4.2 You will restrict any posts relating to the following controversial topics to the Ethics & Morality, Liberal Theology or Christian Philosophy forums (this site uses the scriptural definition of marriage which is a union between a man and a woman):
a. drug use.
b. gambling.
c. polygamy.
d. extramarital sexual activity.
e. abortion.
f. homosexuality.
g. transsexuality.
In addition, discussion of the above topics must be backed by evidence complete with citations. Standard citations are acceptable but links are preferred. The above topics are also disallowed in profile entries including avatars and signatures as these are not intended to be used in such a manner.
===================================

Any conversations about Brokeback Mountain need to be held in one of those fora since homosexuality really can't be avoided when talking about that particular movie.

Therefore I'm going to move this thread to Ethics and Morality so the conversation can continue without reports being generated.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[Sketcher]

You don't have to abdicate your beliefs, but if you simply stop treating us like dirt it would definitely help. If you want to stem promiscuity, then promote healthy images of stable, monogamous (read: married) gay couples. Be more supportive of kids having problems; tell your own kids that calling another "gay" or "fagg*t" is rude and harmful. You could do a lot better than decrying the "sinful lifestyle" (or whatever fantasy you have in mind) of the gay community.

OK, here's the way I see it. We cannot promote the image of a 1950's, "Leave it to Beaver" style gay household because that is not only dishonest but that means promoting homosexuality itself. And that would mean abdicating our beliefs on several levels.

And here's the way I see the gay movement. It does not promote mere tolerance. Tolerance between straight people and gay people implies that straight people don't have a problem with gay people being gay even though we don't agree with the behavior. But let's take a look at the reality here. The club at my college that claims it exists to build such bridges only advertises drag shows besides its regular meetings. This is on the campus email, this is on the lit-up sign by the auditorium. No, you people are promoting the behavior itself. And we find that disgusting. Don't try to tell me that you're about tolerance when you're promoting the behavior itself, going public with it and calling us bigots when our stomachs naturally turn. Decent heterosexual couples keep their sex in the bedroom, I wish you people would do the same.

And the best way to do that is by doing what?

You'd have to talk to a committed, ex-gay Christian about that. They are out there.

 

[Sphere]

Look, I'm not a fan of violence against gays by any means.

Im sure you arent.

But wrong behavior is wrong behavior and popular opinion will never change that.

Just because you think its wrong doesnt mean it is. Using the bible to impose hurt on people you dont know, have never met is wrong.

Yes, homosexuals are going to hell.

And people who commit fornication and adultery too. Right? And people who eat shellfish and trim their sideburns too. Right?

I look forward to your answer.

Jesus also died to save them from hell, they just need to put their homosexuality on the chopping block, along with their other sins.

this in itself is a loaded statement. I am straight, and religious. And I do not think homosexuality is a sin any more than fornication or adultery is.

Aside from the fact that you include jesus...which *surprise* not everyone believes.

That's the way Christianity works, Jesus died for you, you can accept Him just as you are, but you need to FOLLOW HIM afterwards. That means renouncing the behavior that made you a sinner in the first place.

I know how christianity works, and for the most part im aware of the ripe hypocrisy that many(not all) christians exhibit--and this thread is absolutely LOADED with it.

 

[Fireball1244]

You must have a very dim view of heterosexual relationships if there is any honesty to that statement. The vast majority of homosexuals are far from monogamous. The situation they're in, which is filled with casual sex, drugs, STD, depression and suicide needs to be looked at with pity - and the rigors of the homosexual lifestyle are to blame for most of it. Look at it this way: The amountof children who die or get injured from sticking their fingers into light sockets is appaling. So should we discourage the behavior they're doing that hurts them, or encourage them to keep doing it?

Where to begin with this? So much here is stereotype nonsense. And broadly personally offensive, for I am a homosexual. My partner and I (and yes, we are monogamous) are both Christians and we attend the world's largest affirming church, the Cathedral of Hope, which is in the process of affiliating with the United Church of Christ. I know literally hundreds of gay people, ranging from closet case college students to tried and true A Gays. The caricature that you are painting with your description of homosexuality is simply false.

Amongst closet cases, who by their very nature cannot form stable relationships, there is a distressing amount of promiscuity. However, to assert that such is the norm for all gays is simply not accurate. At least half of my gay friends are in stable, monogamous relationships. Most of the others are between them. The percentage of my gay friends who are "promiscuous" is not out of the range found amongst unmarried heterosexuals in their age bracket. None of us use drugs, none of us have STDs.

Regarding gays and depression, that stems directly from gays being belittled and told they're "perverted" and "evil" and "disgusting" by the broad sweep of culture that is viciously anti-gay. Most gays who come to accept their sexuality and who they are leave such problems with depression behind. Those who do not are victims not of their own homosexuality, but of the hate and rage your comments assert.

 

[Sketcher]

Im sure you arent.

You don't even know me.

Just because you think its wrong doesnt mean it is. Using the bible to impose hurt on people you dont know, have never met is wrong.

I don't use the Bible to impose hurt. I tell people what the Bible says, and they hurt themselves because they don't want what they like to be wrong.

And people who commit fornication and adultery too. Right? And people who eat shellfish and trim their sideburns too. Right?

I look forward to your answer.

Kosher's out of date for the Gentile believers, that's another discussion. Fornicators and adulterers are going to hell, absolutely. All sins are equally damnable. I never suggested that they were acceptable.

this in itself is a loaded statement. I am straight, and religious. And I do not think homosexuality is a sin any more than fornication or adultery is.

I believe all three are absolutely wrong and damnable. Do you agree?

I know how christianity works, and for the most part im aware of the ripe hypocrisy that many(not all) christians exhibit--and this thread is absolutely LOADED with it.

Calling sin what it is does not constitute hypocrisy. Wanting certain people to go to hell does, and I never suggested that.

 

[Arnold_Philips]

OK, here's the way I see it. We cannot promote the image of a 1950's, "Leave it to Beaver" style gay household because that is not only dishonest but that means promoting homosexuality itself. And that would mean abdicating our beliefs on several levels.

Then you can't complain about the problems of the gay community if you're not willing to treat the causes.

And here's the way I see the gay movement. It does not promote mere tolerance. Tolerance between straight people and gay people implies that straight people don't have a problem with gay people being gay even though we don't agree with the behavior.

I can agree with that definition.

But let's take a look at the reality here. The club at my college that claims it exists to build such bridges only advertises drag shows besides its regular meetings. This is on the campus email, this is on the lit-up sign by the auditorium. No, you people are promoting the behavior itself. And we find that disgusting. Don't try to tell me that you're about tolerance when you're promoting the behavior itself, going public with it and calling us bigots when our stomachs naturally turn.

Huh? You're against tolerance because of a drag show? You think it's hypocritical for gay organizations to promote tolerance and also put on a drag show, right? I'm not misunderstanding you, am I?

Decent heterosexual couples keep their sex in the bedroom, I wish you people would do the same.

Are you seriously going to stand by this statement? That heteros keep all their signs of affection confined to private arenas?

You'd have to talk to a committed, ex-gay Christian about that. They are out there.

I can talk to a gay Christian, like myself or numerous people on this board about the best way to reach the gay community, thank you. I don't need to talk to someone so deluded and filled with self-hate and guilt that they deny something so integral to their being.

 

[Scally Cap]

OK, here's the way I see it. We cannot promote the image of a 1950's, "Leave it to Beaver" style gay household because that is not only dishonest but that means promoting homosexuality itself.

I suspect the underlying reason why "we" cannot accept images of gay couples as stable, monogamous, normal people is because it undermines all the good-faith efforts to portray them as drug-addicted, jaw-droppingly promiscuous, STD-riddled drag queens whose sole purpose in life is to convert young boys into gay sex slaves.

 

[Fireball1244]

So if only people would accept homosexuality as morally OK, homosexuals would begin to live stable and monogamous lifestyles?

Plenty of homosexuals DO live stable and monogamous lifestyles. Many of my older gay friends live the stereotypical American dream -- big house, nice yard, two kids, two cars, summers in Europe. Aside from the fact that both of them are male, there's nothing different about their home than the one next door to it.

Stop painting a stereotypically negative picture of "the gay lifestyle" and claiming that all gay people live like that. We don't.

 

[Sphere]

You don't even know me.

Just like you dont know homosexuals.

I don't use the Bible to impose hurt. I tell people what the Bible says, and they hurt themselves because they don't want what they like to be wrong.

That exact sentence, could be used by fred phelps or the KKK to promote their agenda as well.

Kosher's out of date for the Gentile believers, that's another discussion. Fornicators and adulterers are going to hell, absolutely. All sins are equally damnable. I never suggested that they were acceptable.

Okay. So, anyone who had sex before marriage will burn in hell--according to you. Just clarifying.

I believe all three are absolutely wrong and damnable. Do you agree?

Seeing as fornication and adultery involve two consenting adults, I dont possibly see why it would be wrong. Or why some people feel the need to condemn them for doing it. Its incredibly hypocritical.

Adultery is different, and I feel its wrong because someone is being hurt in the process.

 

[Sketcher]

Then you can't complain about the problems of the gay community if you're not willing to treat the causes.

The causes are a lifestyle that woefully lacks self-discipline and goes against the flow of nature.

Huh? You're against tolerance because of a drag show? You think it's hypocritical for gay organizations to promote tolerance and also put on a drag show, right? I'm not misunderstanding you, am I?

I'm not against tolerance because of a drag show, I'm against people claiming to be about tolerance when it's not. It's about expanding the homosexual culture.

Are you seriously going to stand by this statement? That heteros keep all their signs of affection confined to private arenas?

I said decent heterosexual couples keep sex in the bedroom. There's nothing decent about strip clubs, swinger parties, and the like.

I can talk to a gay Christian, like myself or numerous people on this board about the best way to reach the gay community, thank you. I don't need to talk to someone so deluded and filled with self-hate and guilt that they deny something so integral to their being.

Well, if you truly are born again you should not identify yourself as gay anymore, as you have a new identity:

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Born-again believers are forgiven, and their sins are washed away so they are not counted against them anymore. So, yes we should deny the sinful parts of our past lives, rather than embrace them. To embrace them is spit in Jesus' face, as He died to remove your sins from you. I don't claim to be perfect by any means, I am a sinner saved by grace. But I can't just let people claim they can continue to sin for whatever reason without speaking up.

 

[Sphere]

The causes are a lifestyle that woefully lacks self-discipline and goes against the flow of nature.

Wrong.

Your self discipline remark can be thrown out, because you're painting with a broad brush. Not surprising in the least. However, homosexuality IS seen in nature. Various primates actively practice homosexuality amongst each other. Therefore, it IS natural no matter how much you want to deny it. Unless you feel those apes have free will? I look forward to your answer.

I'm not against tolerance because of a drag show, I'm against people claiming to be about tolerance when it's not. It's about expanding the homosexual culture.

You cannot "expand" it. To suggest that means they can recruit people. I will never be homosexual, I find the thought of being with another man absolutely disgusting--but im not pompous or arrogant enough to tell them its wrong.

I said decent heterosexual couples keep sex in the bedroom. There's nothing decent about strip clubs, swinger parties, and the like.

Keep the stereotypes flowing. Its not like us straight guys dont have strip clubs and swinger parties. Think before you post please.

Well, if you truly are born again you should not identify yourself as gay anymore, as you have a new identity:

Another brush off statement, "jesus will set you freee". You're pretending you understand homosexuality--which you dont--and therefore what you say is pretty much a moot point.

I don't claim to be perfect by any means, I am a sinner saved by grace. But I can't just let people claim they can continue to sin for whatever reason without speaking up.

Good, then you agree that homosexuals can be saved by grace and thus will not go to hell.