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Britain thrilled by offer to submit or die

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CoreyTheMagnificent

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Oh dear, quoting Hal Lindsay. Now I understand.

Now wait a second; are you saying that there is no truth to this quote? I don't think so. I think that you would really like for us to know that you are knowledgable about Christian theology and maybe toss a wrench into a good conversation. Furthermore I don't really see any proof that you have indeed adressed the issues here so please do.

I must say that I don't have much tolerance for things like this and you bore me.
 
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kiwimac

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Corey,

I was studying Christian theology before you were born. As for Hal Lindsey, I have read his books, I have seen everything he said would happen utterly fail to come to pass. Moreover the letter sent from the Muslim world to the leaders of various denominations is NOT a submit or die letter!

It is, instead, talking about the consequences for both religious communities if we cannot find a way to live in peace.
 
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CoreyTheMagnificent

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Now now, calm down. I don't believe I ever said that you weren't extremely knowledgable about Christian theology; I'm sure you are! Also, I don't think that you answered my question about the quote, I asked if you were saying that there was no truth in it, if it is indeed a quote. I find it conceivable that Micah may have just said something very similar to what this man said, but regardless this "quote" makes a lot of sense to me.

Lastly, are you seriously going to hold your age over me? I never claim to be smarter than anyone but if you believe you have nothing to learn from people younger than you, you are a fool.
 
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kiwimac

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Corey, I have no problem with your age. Anyone can teach another. What I have a problem with is anyone believing anything Hal Lindsey has to say.

I suggest you take a look at the following URL http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/3958/hal1.htm

Read what they have to say, get hold of Lindsey's books and judge for yourself.
 
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CoreyTheMagnificent

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Boy! you must be a politician because you have a rather graceful way of dodging questions and making yourself look like the good guy.

I seem to be doing something wrong here, allow me to attempt to clarify. I don't care who this guy is and how fake his prophesies were, I am simply trying to point out that this phrase, if you will, holds truth and would be good advice to follow. Who he is is not important, what is important is the message in these words. I don't want to know about the person who said this particular string of words in his lifetime, I want to know if you think that these words make sense.

Peace!
 
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Micah68

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Now now, calm down. I don't believe I ever said that you weren't extremely knowledgable about Christian theology; I'm sure you are! Also, I don't think that you answered my question about the quote, I asked if you were saying that there was no truth in it, if it is indeed a quote. I find it conceivable that Micah may have just said something very similar to what this man said, but regardless this "quote" makes a lot of sense to me.

Lastly, are you seriously going to hold your age over me? I never claim to be smarter than anyone but if you believe you have nothing to learn from people younger than you, you are a fool.


:o Oh! My! What did I miss? Heaven for bid, did someone think that I quoted Lindsey? If so PLEASE show me my error. The last thing I want, ever is to have my words linked to dispensationalism and in particular Hal Lindsey. IMO Lindsey and his growd have done more harm to Christianity than anything I can think of.:o
 
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kiwimac

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Fair enough, my fault again.

Let us say that your history teacher in high school said it, mind you he is not quoting Mr. Linsay, would you then agree or disagree.

I would disagree. Why? 25+ years of studying comparative religions, I majored in Christianity and Islam.
 
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Carey

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October 12, 2007
Britain thrilled by offer to submit or die
The open letter from 38 Muslim scholars to the Pope and the leaders of other Christian churches on the subject of peace between the faiths has got the British establishment purring with pleasure. The Archbishop of Canterbury and the Bishop of London have fallen on their knees and given thanks. The Times raved:
Rarely, indeed, has the Muslim world spoken out so clearly on the need for global peace or addressed Christianity in such terms of respect and acceptance of common beliefs… it will make it harder for those who thrive on a narrow, militant interpretation of Islam to pose as the true guardians of the faith.
The Telegraph gushed:
In an age when Islamic extremism, with its call for lethal revolution, appears to be making the running, it is deeply encouraging to hear a large group of Muslim leaders advocating peaceful coexistence with Christians.
I must have been reading a different document altogether. For it is a classic piece of manipulation and, I’m afraid to say, menace. Masquerading as the promotion of peace through emphasising characteristics that these religions apparently share, it instead effectively puts a scimitar to the neck of the Christian church and says: ‘Peace on our terms’.
At least one cleric gets it. In the Times the Bishop of Rochester, Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, the one Anglican who understands the threat from Islamism, noted that the letter required Christians to adopt the Muslim belief in the oneness of God.
‘One partner cannot dictate the terms on which dialogue must be conducted. This document seems to be on the verge of doing that.’
Others, such as Ruth Gledhill and Robert Spencer have drawn attention to its theological slipperiness and the way it leaves out all the bits in the Koran which revile, curse and urge war upon Jews and Christians. But for me, the message was plain from the internal logic of the document’s argument.
First and foremost, it purports to be a plea to Muslims and Christians to make peace with each other. But this implies that both are at war with each other. This is untrue. The Islamic world — or part of it — has waged war on the Christian (and Jewish) western world. The Christian world is merely responding in self-defence. It is the Islamic world which says it wants to conquer the Christian. The Christian world does not say it wants to conquer Islam, merely that Islam should stop trying to conquer it. Yet the Islamic world pretends that the Christian world is engaged in an act of exterminatory aggression against it.
That lie is the motor of the jihad. That lie is fundamental to the absence of peace between the religions. Yet this letter fails totally to acknowledge this seminal fact. It says:
The future of the world depends on peace between Muslims and Christians.
Very true; but for this piety to be any more than a meaningless truism, the Islamic world has to end its aggression. The letter makes no acknowledgement of this. All the emphasis is on the Christian world altering its behaviour. So its inescapable implication is that for peace to occur, the Christian world must abandon its own self-defence. In other words, there can be no peace without the Christian world surrendering to Islam.
Conspicuously, the letter does not rule out all justification for Islam waging war on Christians. Indeed, by saying that Muslims won’t attack Christians unless Christians attack them, it threatens that if it will indeed attack Christians if it thinks it is justified in doing so:
As Muslims, we say to Christians that we are not against them and that Islam is not against them—so long as they do not wage war against Muslims on account of their religion, oppress them and drive them out of their homes, (in accordance with the verse of the Holy Qur’an [Al-Mumtahinah, 60:8] quoted above).
But since the global jihad is being conducted expressly on the false justification that the Christian west is indeed attacking the Islamic world, this amounts to a threat of more of the same unless the west desists. Considering whether Christianity is necessarily against Muslims, it does not answer but instead graciously declares:
We therefore invite Christians to consider Muslims not against and thus with them, in accordance with Jesus Christ’s words here.
In other words, the implication is that Christians are unjustifiably aggressive towards Muslims, and this is because they have failed to understand their own Scripture. And so when it says
So let our differences not cause hatred and strife between us. Let us vie with each other only in righteousness and good works. Let us respect each other, be fair, just and kind to another and live in sincere peace, harmony and mutual goodwill
it’s really a variation of the ancient adage: submit or die.

We know muslims are the propogandist in the world.

They will also lie blatently. Knowing the media knows they lie and then say they are unecessarly being attacked for their lies.
What is funny there are some westerners stupid enough to act like they can't see it.
Islam learned alot but still when Islam governs a country the people of that country suffer.

Muslim and Arab society is today a failure much as Communism used to be. Muslims and Arabs live under absolute and despotic government which prevents them from enjoying anything like the freedom and prosperity that they see in the West and wish for themselves.

A slew of racists, radicals, and Islamists share a frame of mind that the West is selfishly conspiring against them, with the Jews once again secretly in charge.

The Third Reich and the Arab East, by Lukasz Hirszowicz, a Polish-born scholar, was published almost 40 years ago but remains a definitive work. It examines in careful detail how Hitler's Germany sought to woo Arabs through anti-British and anti-Jewish policies.

Of all the Arabs convinced of Hitler's coming triumph, none was so eager as Haj Amin al-Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem and leader of the Palestinian Arabs in the Hitler years

Along the lines that "my enemy's enemy is my friend," Haj Amin converted the Palestinian cause into a local branch of Hitler's worldwide anti-Jewish persecution. Fleeing from the British, he spent the war in Berlin. A friend and admirer of Himmler's, he raised a division of Bosnian Muslims for the SS. Hitler made grandiose promises to him, but was cautious enough to add that they could be met only after victory.

http://www.nationalreview.com/nr_com...ent071802a.asp
 
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Candide

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We know muslims are the propogandist in the world.

*some* Muslims.

Islam learned alot but still when Islam governs a country the people of that country suffer.

More so than when Christianity governs a country?

Muslim and Arab society is today a failure much as Communism used to be. Muslims and Arabs live under absolute and despotic government which prevents them from enjoying anything like the freedom and prosperity that they see in the West and wish for themselves.

Are you seriously going to blame this on the Muslim religion itself? Not, perhaps, the corrupted leaders or politicians who have used the religion for their own profit, but the religion itself? That makes no sense at all. It's like saying the Christian Religion was the cause of the crusades, not the people using the religion for bad.

A slew of racists, radicals, and Islamists share a frame of mind that the West is selfishly conspiring against them, with the Jews once again secretly in charge.

There's always going to be crazy people out there. You'd do well to not allow those people to influence your opinions about religions or social groups as a whole.

Along the lines that "my enemy's enemy is my friend," Haj Amin converted the Palestinian cause into a local branch of Hitler's worldwide anti-Jewish persecution. Fleeing from the British, he spent the war in Berlin. A friend and admirer of Himmler's, he raised a division of Bosnian Muslims for the SS. Hitler made grandiose promises to him, but was cautious enough to add that they could be met only after victory.

What does this have to do with anything?


Again, I think it's uber important to stress. The people "speaking" or "acting" on behalf of any given religion do not speak or act for that entire religion. It's is very important to criticize those people, and not the religion they are representing, because if you are criticizing the latter, you are going to achieve nothing, and you're going to miss out on the lessons you can learn from that religion, as well as the beauty that can be found in it.
 
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