B'rit Chadashah - Sa'ul = ?

[SonWorshipper]

Was it?

What were the qualifications for becoming an apostle? There is scriptural references for the matter. Did Paul fulfill the criteria? Out of the some 22or so times Paul is referred to as an apostle 20 of them are self endorsement, and the other few are from his sidekick luke. (no offense meant to luke).


I have many many questions concerning the man.



I mean honestly God is my Salvation, through Yeshua not Paul. Paul will not be my judge. Man shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, not Paul.

Makes one wonder about this Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Isn't the Good News, or Gospel the Gospel of Y'shua?

 

[SonWorshipper]

"Bind" and "loose" in Hebrew are halakhic terms for "To Forbid" (zeh asur) and "To Allow" (zeh mutar). To this day they are used that way in Israel. You see them in signs everywhere. For example "asur le'ashen" means "no smoking allowed".


Again: "I no longer call you servants, but you are my friends." For you know my Father's business...

Quite true, but who was he addressing? the Talmidim hand picked by him as given by the Father or any disciple to come after? Keep in mind This does leave open the RCC's position that they are the keepers of the faith as well as the only "legal" doctrine setters ( ala the infallability of the Pope).

These people (the heretics, including liberal Christians) do not share our world view and should be left out of the discourse. This is the terrain that Paul had complete authority to rule over. Whoever goes against the teaching of the beit-din is a heretic pure and simple. Within the beit-din you are granted tremendous lattitude in arguing your case...whether it wins or loses. But all must adhere (in black and white matters) on the teaching of the beit-din. Jesus in Revelation, by the way, is only one member of that beit-din. So Paul is no heretic when he disagrees with Yeshua...He just has to bite his lip when the prime minister rejects his motion. We can think of Yeshua as the "Rosh haKnesset". Or "Sar Yeshua", "Yeshua the Prince".

I can't agree with this, fully, because you have to take into account when each of these books was written, what was "known" during the writing of the epistles of Paul. [/quote]
[pquote] I'm not an MJ, but I wish MJ's had the cajones to lead the Church...to reclaim the authority that had been granted to the Jerusalem Council. [/quote] For now the Beit Din remains in heaven.

Paul continued the revelation. He was a prophet and an apostle. He ascended to the third heaven. Without Paul, I would not have Yeshua as my Lord and Savior. He was God's chosen vessel to preach the Good News to the gentiles. He went overboard on some matters, but Yeshua did correct what had to be corrected. The N.T. lets us know about these debates (they aren't silent debates!) in order to give us a clear manual on how to proceed in determining Halakha...it gives us insight and wisdom. No, it is not easy, and only the most humble among us should be allowed to become Rabbis...but in the challenge, God shows us that He is with us.

Would you please clarify "continued the revelation"?

Barukh haShem.

Indeed!

 

[SonWorshipper]

Hi Sw, you said this a few days ago, and I believe I just read over about the worst example of it I have ever seen.


Originally Posted By: SonWorshipper

On many a thread I have participated in whenever the subject of anything in Torah is discussed Paul is used to refute it. I have heard of the Pauline espitles talked about as if they were written by the hand of G-d and nothing else. I have even heard Pauls word repeatedy held in more regard than those of the Messiah himself. Their reasoning was that Yeshua said such and such before he was crucified (and thus things changed afterwards through Paul) or that because He "was" Jewish he HAD to do those things, I really didn't realize how much of what is taught in Christian churches comes from Pauls writings alone. I guess they save Yeshua for Easter and Christmas.


Mat 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Response from someone concerning that exact passage;

Isnt this OT law? where forgiveness is conditional. ie if you do this, God does this. This is not grace. You never find Paul teaching this to the churches. In fact, what is taught is FORGIVE BCOS YOU HAVE FORGIVENESS/HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN.

Today, if we do not want forgive someone who has offended us, then it is to our loss.
1. We cant come boldly to God's throne with faith if we harbour bitterness towards someone. It will be on our conscience.
2. Science has shown that bitterness/unforgiveness, if held on for too long, leads to certain diseases.

Also, it is not realistic to expect the offender to repent first b4 we forgive him. What if he does not repent? Are we then going to bear the grudge until we die? No, forgiveness does not depend on repentance.




I suppose Messiah is to be thrown out wholesale in preference of the teachings of Paul, in the opinions of some.

Well is that is the worst example, I would hate to see the best.

 

[Woodsy]

I accept Paul's teachings because they are canon, and because I am not willing to pick and choose what I like from the Bible. I accept Paul's account of his conversion because it is canonical. And I believe the fact that Paul suffered as he suffered and died as he died for sharing the Gospel is a strong testimony to his faith.
But it also seems that his writings cause some of the worst contention between Christian and Jew, and between Christian and Christian.
The dynamic among he and the Apostles is an interesting thing to read - seemingly unlike any interpersonal relations among the Apostles recorded anywhere else. And so I sometimes wonder about a New Covenant without Paul's writings.
The fact that his writings are difficult and/or often misunderstood, however, do not make them false.

 

[sojeru]

hi SW,
when Paulos said that according to my gospel as you say.
He actually says "this is my gospel" or in better sence, "this is the gospel i preach/live."
The gospel (b'surah ) is Messiah himself.

 

[Woodsy]

Thank you for helping me understand where you are coming from.
I agree thathis writings cause contention between Jew and gentile but i also think I know why that is:
The Blance of Law and Grace is not maintained.
You have the Gentiles wanting to throw out the Law and override it with Grace.
And often, you have the Jews wanting to throw out the Grace and override it with the Law.
Until there is an equal balance of Law AND Grace, instead of Law VS. Grace, there will be contention.

That's a good point and would indeed seem to be the major point of contention/confusion even during the time of the Apostles. I can imagine the concept of Grace being so foreign to the Jews of that era (or even of this era!)! They had been raised to see that God would be angry at them for violating the Law - and Grace was such a new, easier yet more demanding, way that it must have just been baffling to many.

 

[KelsayDL]

Does anyone doubt Paul and the validity of his teachings? Wouldn't you pretty much have to rule out almost all of the B'rit Hadashah? And if you doubt his teachings, you would then have to doubt God's inspiration for him to write what he wrote...
Could someone clarify?

I am questioning Paul, and to a high degree.

Don't get me wrong I know many of Pauls teachings can be twisted quite easily to fit anyones gospel. Christianity is the perfect example, or perhaps it is MJ that is trying to make him fit the mold of a torah observant Jew.

I see errors in both lines of reasoning, and have for over 20yrs, yet I pretty much just shrugged them off.

I'm at a point in my life I cannot do that anymore.

Yes to doubt Pauls teachings would indeed mean to doubt his being inspired, does that mean I am rejecting Yeshua? Not a chance.

To me, he brings confusion. I've seen the bend-over backwards apologetics in his defense, from the messianics pov a bazillion times over. And yes, some of them seem to be right on. But not all of them.

Yeshua told his apostles to go and teach all nations, some of them were engaged in that task before Paul. Yeshuas message would have gone out even without Paul.

As far as his letters being canon, the RCC canonized them, and I hold them in no high regard whatsover, Luther retained him in the protestant version of the bible, while fighting tooth and nail to throw out books such as James and revelation.

I honestly do not ascribe to the pov that the process of deciding what is canon is divinely inspired. Nor that every word of Paul is the word of God.

Again, please read corinthians then refer back to the edicts of the jerusalem council, and then refer to what the Lord had to say about food offered to idols in revelations.

There is no, "well Paul was speaking of meat of unknown origen from the markets here".

Paul flat out calls people weak in faith who *for conscience* sake could not partake of food offered to idols. Hello? RED FLAG!

Sorry, but to me, that is one nail in the coffin of Paul.

1 Corinthians 8: 1 - 13

1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. 9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

What I would really like to know, is if this letter was written after the Jerusalem council, in which Paul was present when the edicts for the gentiles was spoken about. No less than three times.

Can anyone answer that for me?

 

[SonWorshipper]

But how could the Gentiles that never knew the law want to throw it out?

 

[koilias]

This forum is wonderful....I learn something new every time I visit!

indeed all of this is intresting.
I take Paul to be 100% correct.
Only thing is- How do we find it?
How do we see that he is on the direct path and only path to HaShem.

I love Paulos.
and they, Paulos and Messiah, agree.
its just to find out how.

so i have no problem with Paulos calling himself as such- but he is my brother and elder.
Messiah being the head of us all- and we cannot be divided.
we may have our disagreements at first- But the ONE SPIRIT that directs us all will make us ONE.

shalom u'bracha

You answered your own question!!

WE, the living Church, reconcile Paul and Yeshua! It's up to us. Together.

Reconciling Paul to Yeshua is tough. But we can do it with some creativity!

We have the authority...The authority is not abstract! It's something we wield now because Yeshua loves us...

Together b'yaHad.

hineh mah-tov umah na'im shevet aHim gam-yaHad.

 

[sojeru]

hi kelsay,
no doubt, we dont ALL HAVE THE ANSWERS.
Maybe some of us do- but they do not exist on these forums.
I have only partial knowledge to that saying yet it is not enough to complete and oath it to HaShem.
Until that time when we can all do that, and be ONE.
And I appreciate your fight.
This is what we need. And I am glad that you do not completely doubt him- it leaves a chance for both to show in full.

 

[koilias]

All of us are here because we are struggling to understand Paul. Kelsay's point is valid. Yes, we can find the answers between us. "Wherever two or three of you are gathered, I am with you." None of us is claiming we can get to the answer by being more knowledgable, etc. In our walk with God, we were directed to this forum...and I'm certainly here because others have wisdom in the Spirit to help me understand my Lord better.